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Source of the Thornton bashing?

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Old
11-02-2003, 10:32 AM
  #1
BlacknGold Barbarino
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Source of the Thornton bashing?

Sorry to start yet another thread on Thornton, but I'd like to isolate this particular topic from all the others swirling around.

Where is the recent Thornton hatred coming from? "Trade Thornton". "Take away the C". "Bench Thornton". What!?!?!

Observe:

1) He's one of the top five players in hockey. Arguably, the best.

2) He's scoring despite the fact that his favorite triggerman is in a major funk

3) He constantly draws the opposing team's best checkers. Doing so directly leads to the Rolstons and Bergerons being able to score.

So what's going on with the fans who suddenly dislike Thornton? Is it because he's the figurehead, so when the Bs lose he's the target? Or are there some specific reasons? ("It's just my opinion" doesn't cut it.)

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11-02-2003, 10:37 AM
  #2
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i love joe. just wish he'd be more consistent, more selfish, and develop a killer instinct. i don't think it's much to ask for. otherwise, i think he's an unbelievable talent, and talk about the grass being greener on the other side. if joe left, we'd really be unhappy watching him kick the crap out of us everytime he came into town.

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11-02-2003, 11:10 AM
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I don't want trade, bench or take the "C" away from him, but my problem with Thornton is he's not being a very good captain. The team clearly played a much worse 2nd period than the 1st while the Pens were stepping it up abit and Thornton goes out taking two penalties. I have no problem with the guy getting angry out there, but to control his anger to a way of being useful for himself. Instead of punching a guy in the face, go level a guy legally the next shift. Not only does that not get him into penalty trouble, but he sparks his team with a hit. He could even forget about leveling a guy and go all out the next shift trying to score, I am sure the team would notice what Joe was doing. I think he'll eventually get there, he's not as bad as he use to be and him being Captain should get him there faster, so taking the "C" away would be pointless, and really stupid.

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11-02-2003, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Return of the Vin
Sorry to start yet another thread on Thornton, but I'd like to isolate this particular topic from all the others swirling around.

Where is the recent Thornton hatred coming from? "Trade Thornton". "Take away the C". "Bench Thornton". What!?!?!

Observe:

1) He's one of the top five players in hockey. Arguably, the best.

2) He's scoring despite the fact that his favorite triggerman is in a major funk

3) He constantly draws the opposing team's best checkers. Doing so directly leads to the Rolstons and Bergerons being able to score.

So what's going on with the fans who suddenly dislike Thornton? Is it because he's the figurehead, so when the Bs lose he's the target? Or are there some specific reasons? ("It's just my opinion" doesn't cut it.)

Well said, Vinny.

I was a vocal supporter of the decision to make Joe Thornton captain and stand by it.

Were/are there others who might be a better choice? Certainly- you can argue that effectively. But I also believe that Thornton is the franchise, and he is nowhere near the zenith of his production and talent level as an NHL player.

On a bad day, Thornton is still better than 90% of the other NHL centermen, and because fans know what he is capable of, it is all the more frustrating when he doesn't seem to be bringing the intensity every night, or suffers lapses in discipline that cost his team. But I think even the most ardent critics of his suitability as captain would be unhappy to see him dealt.

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11-02-2003, 11:19 AM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowL
I don't want trade, bench or take the "C" away from him, but my problem with Thornton is he's not being a very good captain. The team clearly played a much worse 2nd period than the 1st while the Pens were stepping it up abit and Thornton goes out taking two penalties. I have no problem with the guy getting angry out there, but to control his anger to a way of being useful for himself. Instead of punching a guy in the face, go level a guy legally the next shift. Not only does that not get him into penalty trouble, but he sparks his team with a hit. He could even forget about leveling a guy and go all out the next shift trying to score, I am sure the team would notice what Joe was doing. I think he'll eventually get there, he's not as bad as he use to be and him being Captain should get him there faster, so taking the "C" away would be pointless, and really stupid.
Thornton went oput and got a bad call. So he wacked the guy that was holding him after the play, what is he supposed to do, just sit there?

He should punch more people in the face for some of the crap he takes.

What should happen is the calls when there like that should at least be matching, when that is the case.

Chirst, the guy sticks up for himslef and gets reamed, doesnt play physical enbough and gets reamed, complaigns about the none calls and gets reamed, and does try to fight thru them and gets reamed.

And what do u mean he's not as bad as he used to be? If he wanst phyusical and sticking up for himself he have to be dropping to the ice everytime he gets whacked tugged on or interefered with,, but he hardly ever gets tha call

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11-02-2003, 11:23 AM
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i think some of us want a captain like terry orielly, rick tocchet,ect, but thats just not thorntons personallity or style. . . he`s layed but and thats pretty much how its gonna be so we better get used to it, theres 29 teams that would love him as their captain

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11-02-2003, 11:24 AM
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Its inevitable...

...that Joe will become the main target of all the attacks when things do not go well in Bruins nation. Especially considering lately the offense has been slowed a bit and your number one scorer will be the focal of the critcism. Myself I love the way Joe plays the one problem I see with Joe's game is he needs to find a middle ground. It seems as though its one end of the spectrum or the other with our captain either:

a) Happy go lucky Joe, that doesn't do much in the way of hitting and doesn't play with much of an edge, but is mainly focused on creating offense. Not necessarily a bad thing but because of his size and strength and that he is captain he needs to bring more to the table.

b) Angry and frustrated Joe usually seen when opponenets are taking liberties and getting away with it you'll find Thornton going hard at opponents, playing with a decidedly irate edge his game and taking bad penalties some of which may warrant a suspension. At times it brings a smile to my face when he is totally going to town on a punk like Avery but you don't want to see potentially the best player in the league sitting out for 5 minutes at a time.

For Joe to take that next step in his evolution as a player he needs to learn how to play with his emotions and channel them in the right direction.

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11-02-2003, 11:30 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Return of the Vin
Sorry to start yet another thread on Thornton, but I'd like to isolate this particular topic from all the others swirling around.

Where is the recent Thornton hatred coming from? "Trade Thornton". "Take away the C". "Bench Thornton". What!?!?!...
Of all sixty-odd posters in this and the three other Thornton threads running simultaneously, only ONE poster, Iceman, suggested trading Thornton so I don't think it's fair to suggest that we hate him.

Some of us favor benching any player (including Joe) when they aren't following the coach's gameplan. And some of us don't think he should be captain.

Virtually nobody hates him or suggests he be traded!

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11-02-2003, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Return of the Vin
Sorry to start yet another thread on Thornton, but I'd like to isolate this particular topic from all the others swirling around.

Where is the recent Thornton hatred coming from? "Trade Thornton". "Take away the C". "Bench Thornton". What!?!?!

Observe:

1) He's one of the top five players in hockey. Arguably, the best.

2) He's scoring despite the fact that his favorite triggerman is in a major funk

3) He constantly draws the opposing team's best checkers. Doing so directly leads to the Rolstons and Bergerons being able to score.

So what's going on with the fans who suddenly dislike Thornton? Is it because he's the figurehead, so when the Bs lose he's the target? Or are there some specific reasons? ("It's just my opinion" doesn't cut it.)
you hit it on the head- he's their figure head; he's Tom Brady. Its to bad because I wonder how he'll take it. He seems more suited to be one of the key members of the band but not the leader. He may be as important as the singer like Bob Weir of the Dead but he's not Jerry Garcia-the real backbone and spiritual leader of that band.

Not sure if the Weir-Garcia analogy makes sense but I always wanted to get them into a post. Speaking of Bob Weir- I long for a good Wally Wier-Terry O'Reilly battle in the corner.

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11-02-2003, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misterjaggers
Of all sixty-odd posters in this and the three other Thornton threads running simultaneously, only ONE poster, Iceman, suggested trading Thornton so I don't think it's fair to suggest that we hate him.

Some of us favor benching any player (including Joe) when they aren't following the coach's gameplan. And some of us don't think he should be captain.

Virtually nobody hates him or suggests he be traded!
Look no further than the Washington Capitals to see if benching players works.

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Old
11-02-2003, 12:04 PM
  #11
BlacknGold Barbarino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misterjaggers
Some of us favor benching any player (including Joe) when they aren't following the coach's gameplan.
Evidence?

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11-02-2003, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Return of the Vin
Evidence?
Evidence of what?

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11-02-2003, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misterjaggers
Evidence of what?
That Thornton is "not following the coach's game plan". That's a pretty bold statement.

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11-02-2003, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Return of the Vin
That Thornton is "not following the coach's game plan". That's a pretty bold statement.
Sullivan keeps saying that he wants the B's to be a "skating team". Joe only skates with the puck behind the net. Otherwise, he can't wait to get rid of it. I'd love to see Joe go to the slot for once, take a pass from Knuble, deek a d man, and go top shelf. We all know he can do it.

BTW, I've been impressed with the way Joe has kept his cool this year, and I won't fault him for his manic mood shifts (he's calm, and then when he loses it he LOSES it). Someday, he's going to be a great captain once he leads us through some playoff victories. I just hope that isn't when he's 32.

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11-02-2003, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Return of the Vin
That Thornton is "not following the coach's game plan". That's a pretty bold statement.
I was referring to several other posters who felt that Thornton should have been benched in this specific instance. It's my view that no player is exempt from being benched if warranted, but if you look back at MY posts today, I didn't call for his benching.

Sullivan said Thornton wasn't following his gameplan:
``You can't take them [penalties], that's the bottom line,'' said B's coach Mike Sullivan, composed but obviously upset with the penalties incurred by his captain. ``I know he gets mauled, hooked, clutched, grabbed, but we have to find ways to fight through it. That's what discipline is.'' (http://bruins.bostonherald.com/bruin...g?articleid=76)

So, what's so bold about my statement?

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11-02-2003, 12:29 PM
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That's not "not following the gameplan". That's getting penalties called on you when you're "clutched, hooked, grabbed".

Not following the gameplan makes it sound like he's blatantly ignoring Sullivan.

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11-02-2003, 12:31 PM
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I'm sorry I posted a thread...I only posted it because of Joes's whining...It had nothing to do about his gameplay....

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11-02-2003, 12:37 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Return of the Vin
That's not "not following the gameplan". That's getting penalties called on you when you're "clutched, hooked, grabbed".

Not following the gameplan makes it sound like he's blatantly ignoring Sullivan.
Arguing semantics is a waste of your time and mine.

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11-02-2003, 12:39 PM
  #19
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Originally Posted by misterjaggers
Arguing semantics is a waste of your time and mine.
Not arguing that one. Just clarifying what I thought you were implying. 'Twas my mistake.

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11-02-2003, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Return of the Vin
Not arguing that one. Just clarifying what I thought you were implying. 'Twas my mistake.
No offense taken.

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11-02-2003, 12:43 PM
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my thoughts...and I'll admit they are scrambled...

Joe was thrown the "C" at an age a bit too young. Not only chronilogically but also because of the level of his personal maturity. I think it had a lot to do with Marketing...moreso than leadership at the time.

I think it's somewhat similar to Stevie Y in Detroit oh so many years ago,
That turned out pretty damn good ...but...it took time ,,years.

I think Joe's "whining " comes from shear frustration and nothing more.
I think he was right on in the papers.. What is he supposed to do? carry 2 guys on his back all night every night ?
Easy for us to say "yes".. but it's just not humanely possible..I don't care who the players is. This kind of clutch and grab crap is the ruination of the game we love so much.
The league has and still is missing the boat in a big way by letting it go on and on and on...
The game will die because of it...if the league doesn't smarten up.

Back to Joe.. I think overtime he'll be a fine Captain. He has grown each and every year he's been here. And at the age of 24 ..he's still "a kid".
2 years away from starting his "prime".

I don't know what the answer is.. At times I'd wish that he'd wait until the Bruins had a nice a lead and the next guy that hung all over him.. he'd just beat the living hell outta him. Then do it again.
I don't know if a statement like that would do any good .. but I do know one thing....both he and I would feel better..

Overall... I have no big worries about Joe.. the best is yet to come I believe.

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11-02-2003, 01:28 PM
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He has grown each and every year he's been here. .. the best is yet to come I believe.


I agree with this Wally. His first year, we were wondering just what we had. In the next few years he filled out and stepped up to be a player.

A few years later and he is at 100+ pts.

Now we want him to be the best player in the league every night, and be the best captain.

He isn't there yet, and we're all hoping he steps up. It is certainly within his graps IMO, and with Sullivan's help, hopefully he sees the power of being a bit more selfish with the puck (keeping defenders honest), and the power of the captain's role in influencing the team.

You can't just "get experience". It takes time. Its up to Sullivan to challenge him, without losing him. I was pleased to see Sullivan's resposnes in the paper and I trust he is giving more of that to Joe behind the scenes on a daily basis.

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11-02-2003, 02:26 PM
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Some comments about Thornton...

- The B's lack a bit of charisma. They don't have a lot of players who will get you standing in the Fleece, whooping and hollering. As the leader of the team and figurehead of the current Bruins roster, Thornton is just attracting some of the lack of enthusiasm for the team. It's not as lovabel a crew as past incarnations of your Boston Bruins. Joe's personality and role just attract some of the negative feelings.

- Joe starts slowly. We have had similar discussions about him in past seasons. 20 games from now, when he'll probably have 25 more points, the discussions will be different.

- The vast majority of us probably agree that Thornton is in the top 10 players in the game. He probably rates from 1 to 10 depending on who's shuffling the deck. The "problem" of Thornton would probably largely disappear if he had a partner in crime to deflect the spotlight and burden. Murray is a pretty good player, but I don't think he's a huge fan favorite for a variety of reasons. People like him, respect him as a very good player. Samsonov is the waterbug and can make you sit forward a few times per game. Good kid, great talent. But I would argue that neither of these guys, or any others on the team, are anything like Neely or Bourque or some of our other stars that were loved. If Joe was playing alongside a Bertuzzi or Iginla or Hejduk or some kind of electrifying player with IT, I think the attitudes towards Joe would be different.

It would be nice to see Thornton show a bit more life out there 82 games a year. He's a great player and we're lucky to have him. Perhaps he is similar to Bledsoe (when he was younger) and he's simply a fine talent who is not the sharpest knife in the drawer and needs a good supporting cast to really shine in a team context. There's nothing wrong in that. Even if I'm wrong about that, it is simply true that the Bruins will be a very good team when they put together a very good roster. At that point, hopefully the team will be a little more fun to watch, and a little more diverse in its talent. When/if this happens, Thornton will still be our best player and there won't be as much frustration with him - which I would argue is really just the distilled frustration with the team at large.

 
Old
11-02-2003, 02:56 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb_fan
Thornton went oput and got a bad call. So he wacked the guy that was holding him after the play, what is he supposed to do, just sit there?

He should punch more people in the face for some of the crap he takes.

What should happen is the calls when there like that should at least be matching, when that is the case.

Chirst, the guy sticks up for himslef and gets reamed, doesnt play physical enbough and gets reamed, complaigns about the none calls and gets reamed, and does try to fight thru them and gets reamed.

And what do u mean he's not as bad as he used to be? If he wanst phyusical and sticking up for himself he have to be dropping to the ice everytime he gets whacked tugged on or interefered with,, but he hardly ever gets tha call
He should punch more people in the face because he takes crap? That's just stupid. If you mean everytime someone does something to him he shouldn't be punished if he does something back, that's just wrong.

I don't have a problem exactly with him sticking up for himself, but when he decided to do it. He needs to pick his spots better, not punch someone when your team is playing like crap and needs you in the 3rd period.

And what do you mean what do I mean about him not being as bad as he use to be? The guy use to cross-check people in the face and get suspended. I believe he played 66 games two years ago and got 127 PIMS, last season 75 games and only 109 PIMS. You have not noticed this?

I love the way Thornton plays and how he don't drop like he's been shot everytime he gets tugged, but like I said the only problem I got with the guy right now is if he wants to be the Captain of the team he should be on the ice when they need him instead of hurting them with a penalty so late in the game.

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11-02-2003, 03:04 PM
  #25
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Hmmm...Except for asking him to work harder a few times, I've never bashed Joe, not once. For that matter, I've never advocated trading him (or Samsonov) either, except one time early in his career when I threw out the idea of swapping him for a then-premiere Eric Lindros. That's it. Always been a 100% supporter of Thornton and Samsonov, no bashing or trade talk.

Realistically spreaking, for a 24 year old captain who is still early on the maturation curve, there's huge expectations on his shoulders that will be hard to live up to. And as Vin said, he's one of the best players in the league. He's big, has Mario Lemeiux-esque playmaking skills, he's tough, he's doesn't have an ego, and he can fight with the best of them (Daneyko, Arnott were two dandies). In my mind, add it up and there's nothing to complain about.

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