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REALISTIC Free Agent Acquisitions

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Old
05-08-2006, 03:08 PM
  #26
sXe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck
To me, realistic means that the player would sign with the Habs without commanding a king's ransom. So which players would fit the expected budget?

The Habs can go high only if they free up enough salary room through trades or letting players enter free agency without making them an offer. If Gainey goes after Elias or Redden or Chara, he would have to make more drastic personnel cuts than simply not holding on to Bulis and Sundstrom.

I think Bob means business, judging from this quote ;

- "Thanks to the tremendous support from our fans, we have the money to compete with any team," Gainey said. "Where I think we have an advantage is in the environment.

"There are other places players can go but I don't think there's a better place.

"People care here and if you're a player who cares, this is the place for you. If you're looking for spice, we have it here
." -


It doesn't imply a major UFA because just getting a guy like Langenbrunner would be close to 3M$ and that's all the Theo money right there.
Still, it speaks a lot about the type of guy he wants to get.


Last edited by sXe: 05-08-2006 at 03:08 PM. Reason: italicised
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Old
05-08-2006, 03:16 PM
  #27
Sam I Am
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Originally Posted by sXe
"Ah! the always reliable quick-fix. Sign UFAs, trade the kids. Not to mention our strenght at the moment is in young forwards.
That's the kind of thinking that had us watching poker and curling for a year. When I saw realistic in the title I knew it was almost too good to be true.

Besides, shouldn't a franchise player "grow up" in the franchise? I see Marleau as the franchise player (and captain) of SJ imo. Maybe my definition of franchise player is off."

__________________________________________________ __________________

Ah! The always reliable build with the draft. How long has it been since the Habs drafted their last keystone player? Let's face it. It's a lot easier to draft the Ovechkins and Crosbys when you're picking first. The Canadiens cannot afford be so crappy a team that this an option. Let's face it. Drafting in the middle of the pack as they have for many. many seasons, a variety of Canadiens' GMs have come up with this many franchise players: zero.

Meanwhile. a number of other organizations have acquired some extremely valuable players through trades. Prior to the new CBA, these teams were almost exclusively the rich teams, namely Detroit, Colorado, Philly and a few others. Players such as Forsberg, Sundin, Neely and Blake have gone on to have Hall of Fame careers for teams which did not draft them. Since the advent of the saalry cap, this approach is now available to less wealthy teams. I. for one, would have been delighted if the Habs put together a deal for Thornton or Chris Pronger.

With the new UFA rules, it will be increasingly unnecessary to draft and develop defencemen. With a very few exceptions, d-men require many years to mature and often do not reach their peaks until their late twenties or thirties. Komisarek is a perfect example of a player who we could conceivably lose to free agency prior to him realizing his considerable potential. Replace him with Kubina who is big and fast, plays the right side and is now entering his prime. Then use Komi as trade bait for the elusive frachise player who is not just going to be given away by his current team.

To me this approach makes a lot of sense in the new NHL.

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05-08-2006, 03:26 PM
  #28
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Hope nobody was expecting Zidlicky.

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Old
05-08-2006, 03:47 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam I Am

To me this approach makes a lot of sense in the new NHL.
I know what you meant the first time. I happen to disagree.

First off Komi isn't your only trade asset. Wouldn't you help your team more by keeping both Komi and a UFA? Have you considered this? We have a ton of forwards and we lack d-man. Makes sense no?

I'm not against the idea of trading or going for the big name player. Still, you have to keep the right players. Detroit and Colorado had amazing drafting and still do, these franchises are examples of building with the draft and dealing from a position of strenght.


Using Komi as an example doesn't help because he is exactly what we need more of. We need to start replacing the Zednik and Bulis with quality player not the Komi and Higgins then we'll be on the road to contenders. I don't think you can rush it and get from crappy to contender in one summer.

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05-08-2006, 03:49 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam I Am
...deleted...
With the new UFA rules, it will be increasingly unnecessary to draft and develop defencemen. With a very few exceptions, d-men require many years to mature and often do not reach their peaks until their late twenties or thirties.

...deleted...
I am glad you bring that point... I always wanted to express that fact, but I guess was too lazy or didn't find the right post to bring it to people's attention.

Indeed with the new CBA, it came as obvious to me, that it makes little sense to heavily draft defensemen, and develop them.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam I Am
...deleted...
Replace him with Kubina who is big and fast, plays the right side and is now entering his prime. Then use Komi as trade bait for the elusive frachise player who is not just going to be given away by his current team.

To me this approach makes a lot of sense in the new NHL.
...deleted...
However, I would say, that if you could get a young defenseman, that can develop fairly quickly, and have him play for cheap for some years... and most importantly develop a good relationship with him... you could end-up keeping him long term... based on that relationship.


Also, on another front, a team would be as scared as you to lose Komi to free agency.

I say, I think Montreal has been good to Komi, Komi has been good to us... I say that we should keep him, and I see him sign up with us as he comes close to his UFA status.


Last edited by Pere Noel: 05-08-2006 at 03:51 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old
05-08-2006, 03:59 PM
  #31
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SamIAm states: With the new UFA rules, it will be increasingly unnecessary to draft and develop defencemen. With a very few exceptions, d-men require many years to mature and often do not reach their peaks until their late twenties or thirties. Komisarek is a perfect example of a player who we could conceivably lose to free agency prior to him realizing his considerable potential. I doubt this will happen with Komisarek.

I dispute the contention that GMs can blithely sign free agent defensemen at their discretion. Not only is this an unnecessarily expensive approach, but there is the risk of brisk competition for the most desirable targets. Finally, I'd rather not go after thirtyish Dmen because many of them lose mobility as they gain experience. Look at the Flyers' fiasco with their lumbering Dmen!


Last edited by Teufelsdreck: 05-08-2006 at 04:42 PM.
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Old
05-08-2006, 04:03 PM
  #32
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The problem I see with Savard is that he is another playmaking center who does not have much in the way of wingers to set up here in Montreal. I mean could he really turn Ryder or Kovy or whoever in 40+ goals scorers?

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05-08-2006, 04:03 PM
  #33
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First, do we really need a BIG centerman or a centerman that will:

1) help to carry the offense when Koivu is facing Brind'amour like checker
2) not be overmached physically on our zone and be able to succesfully defend against big centers
3) play smart, hard-working, speedy game that Carbo and Gainey like

I think Plekanec fits the bill in #2 (his work against Staal) and #3. The question is is his offensive game enough to be our second centerman? We don't know that yet but it's worth a try. My proposal: Keep him on a line with a scorer (Perezhogin), give them some power play time and at the same time sign Ribeiro for one year as an insurance or trade for Lang. Both of this are short term options to give Plekanec time and see what he can do. If he fails, we can sign UFA next season. I'm against signing Arnott or Savard and feel we would have ended with an overpaid dissapointment if we did (especially Arnott)

As for wingers I would stay away from Carter. I've seen Canucks many times this year and all creativity on his line came from the Sedins. He's also not especially agressive or physicall player. Langenbrunner, Belanger and maybe top six LW to play on Kovalev's line are all good ideas

On defense I'd consider Kubina and Jonsson before Jovanovski. They are better players IMO. I don't think that having Komisarek, Souray and Rivet we need more defensive physicall guys like McKee on the blueline

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05-08-2006, 04:04 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sXe
Ah! the always reliable quick-fix. Sign UFAs, trade the kids. Not to mention our strenght at the moment is in young forwards.
That's the kind of thinking that had us watching poker and curling for a year. When I saw realistic in the title I knew it was almost too good to be true.

Besides, shouldn't a franchise player "grow up" in the franchise? I see Marleau as the franchise player (and captain) of SJ imo. Maybe my definition of franchise player is off.
This is why I think we need a two-way defenseman. Our strength is young, skilled forwards. We need somebody to get them the puck and to add more options in the offensive end to free them up.

Also, the powerplay is paramount and another pointman would be ideal. I like Markov and Souray, but after that it's kinda hairy with Rivet or Bouillon at the point.

We aren't going to be a contender until the young forwards mature anyway, so signing a forward who is supposed to be a goalscorer (and thus putting a ton of pressure on him ... signing a goalscorer to play in MONTREAL??? gimme a break) doesn't make sense to me. Signing a guy whose job it is to play D might meet with better results.

I don't see any viable big centermen on the market either. I don't like Arnott myself. He had a career year and is a reknowned floater. Once he gets his money, he'll go on permanent vacation to Bora Bora with Bonk.

To me it has to be a two-way defenseman and then cut Boullion loose if he doesn't sign cheap.

And of course, sign Huet.

I would trade for that big centerman if possible. And we have a lot of bait now.

When Rivet and Souray's contracts run up after next season, we'll be able to use that money to sign ANOTHER solid two-way defenseman (and resign Markov) and then our top 4 will consist of four dependable puck-movers and our forwards will be mature=CONTENDER.

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05-08-2006, 04:39 PM
  #35
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Some fans question the need to replace Ribeiro with a BIG centerman. OK, then how about with a FAST centerman? Or a HARD-SHOOTING centerman? Better yet, how about with a BIG, FAST, HARD-SHOOTING centerman? That pushes all the Ribeiro buttons, doesn't it?

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05-08-2006, 04:44 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf
The problem I see with Savard is that he is another playmaking center who does not have much in the way of wingers to set up here in Montreal. I mean could he really turn Ryder or Kovy or whoever in 40+ goals scorers?
OK, then how about the fact that Savard scored 26 goals? Wouldn't that be an upgrade over Ribeiro?

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05-08-2006, 05:05 PM
  #37
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Indeed it would. Scoring those 26-goals are even more of an accomplishment given the fact that Savard had to play with leeches like Kovalchuk and Hossa, who only served to slow him down.

It's also important when signing UFAs to focus specifically (and exclusively) on their play in their UFA-season. Because God knows, if they have their career year when UFA looms at the end of the season, it means they will generally play just as well after getting that big contract.

We see it every year with players such as Khabibulin, Aucoin, Zhamnov, etcetera. who all went on to dominate with their new teams.

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05-08-2006, 06:10 PM
  #38
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Savard has a history of being somewhat of a problem player.

And also here is part of his scouting report....
"Stands only 5-10 and lacks strength. Has below-average skating ability and work ethic. Tends to get under his coach's skin because of a lack of desire."

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Old
05-08-2006, 07:02 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archijerej
First, do we really need a BIG centerman or a centerman that will:

1) help to carry the offense when Koivu is facing Brind'amour like checker
2) not be overmached physically on our zone and be able to succesfully defend against big centers
3) play smart, hard-working, speedy game that Carbo and Gainey like

I think Plekanec fits the bill in #2 (his work against Staal) and #3. The question is is his offensive game enough to be our second centerman? We don't know that yet but it's worth a try. My proposal: Keep him on a line with a scorer (Perezhogin), give them some power play time and at the same time sign Ribeiro for one year as an insurance or trade for Lang. Both of this are short term options to give Plekanec time and see what he can do. If he fails, we can sign UFA next season. I'm against signing Arnott or Savard and feel we would have ended with an overpaid dissapointment if we did (especially Arnott)
That sounds like a good plan to me. If Gainey manages to make a major trade, so much the better.

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Old
05-08-2006, 07:23 PM
  #40
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JAY MCKEE

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=165265&hubname=nhl

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05-08-2006, 07:24 PM
  #41
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Realistic doesnt ever work on this board.

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Old
05-08-2006, 07:31 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
Indeed it would. Scoring those 26-goals are even more of an accomplishment given the fact that Savard had to play with leeches like Kovalchuk and Hossa, who only served to slow him down.

It's also important when signing UFAs to focus specifically (and exclusively) on their play in their UFA-season. Because God knows, if they have their career year when UFA looms at the end of the season, it means they will generally play just as well after getting that big contract.

We see it every year with players such as Khabibulin, Aucoin, Zhamnov, etcetera. who all went on to dominate with their new teams.
Your irony isn't lost on me but you're not quite as dead-on as you think you are. Aucoin may not have had a successful debut with Chicago (who would!) but he was great when he went from Vancouver to Long Island. Zhamnov was damaged goods when he arrived in Boston. He was injured from the start and never recovered. You could watch Khabibulin rise from the dead if he were traded back to Tampa Bay. Perreault had a scoring renaissance after he became a free agent, outscoring Ribeiro. Brisebois did all right in Colorado. Satan played very well in Long Island. Bondra played better for Atlanta than he did for Ottawa. Same with Nylander for the Rangers. Kovalev played better for the Habs this season than he did for the Rangers/Habs in 2003-04. There are still other examples to counterbalance your etcetra.

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05-08-2006, 09:42 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by sXe

"People care here and if you're a player who cares, this is the place for you. If you're looking for spice, we have it here[/I]." -
Yes. I just love it. Not only is he focused on getting the right players, but he is sending the message to all players. So we are likely to get the ones that really want to play hockey as opposed to one-of-lifetime-contract type of guys and now I will sip my wine (a la Fedorov).

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05-08-2006, 09:59 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
Indeed it would. Scoring those 26-goals are even more of an accomplishment given the fact that Savard had to play with leeches like Kovalchuk and Hossa, who only served to slow him down.
Mike,

I wanted to make a joke and say that probably his 26 goals were the results of rebounds...

Turns out that it may be more true than expected:


4 MARIAN HOSSA ATL R 341
6 ILYA KOVALCHUK ATL L 323

Marian and Ilya are among the top 6 in the league for shoots on goal.

Under that hypothesis, playing him with Zednik and Ryder, he would be down to 16 goals.

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05-08-2006, 10:07 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8
Indeed it would. Scoring those 26-goals are even more of an accomplishment given the fact that Savard had to play with leeches like Kovalchuk and Hossa, who only served to slow him down.

It's also important when signing UFAs to focus specifically (and exclusively) on their play in their UFA-season. Because God knows, if they have their career year when UFA looms at the end of the season, it means they will generally play just as well after getting that big contract.

We see it every year with players such as Khabibulin, Aucoin, Zhamnov, etcetera. who all went on to dominate with their new teams.


imagine how much goals he would have with Dagenais and Ryder ...

i mean , if Ribeiro got 20 last season , Savard would probably get 60-70 goals with those players .

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05-08-2006, 10:12 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck
Your irony isn't lost on me but you're not quite as dead-on as you think you are. Aucoin may not have had a successful debut with Chicago (who would!) but he was great when he went from Vancouver to Long Island. Zhamnov was damaged goods when he arrived in Boston. He was injured from the start and never recovered. You could watch Khabibulin rise from the dead if he were traded back to Tampa Bay. Perreault had a scoring renaissance after he became a free agent, outscoring Ribeiro. Brisebois did all right in Colorado. Satan played very well in Long Island. Bondra played better for Atlanta than he did for Ottawa. Same with Nylander for the Rangers. Kovalev played better for the Habs this season than he did for the Rangers/Habs in 2003-04. There are still other examples to counterbalance your etcetra.
...and a lot of exemples that confirm his words too.

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05-08-2006, 10:28 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck
Your irony isn't lost on me but you're not quite as dead-on as you think you are. Aucoin may not have had a successful debut with Chicago (who would!) but he was great when he went from Vancouver to Long Island. Zhamnov was damaged goods when he arrived in Boston. He was injured from the start and never recovered. You could watch Khabibulin rise from the dead if he were traded back to Tampa Bay. Perreault had a scoring renaissance after he became a free agent, outscoring Ribeiro. Brisebois did all right in Colorado. Satan played very well in Long Island. Bondra played better for Atlanta than he did for Ottawa. Same with Nylander for the Rangers. Kovalev played better for the Habs this season than he did for the Rangers/Habs in 2003-04. There are still other examples to counterbalance your etcetra.
Semantics.

The point is that banking on a player playing as well as they did in their pending-UFA season, in a very unique situation (where Savard had two of arguably the top 5 snipers in the game playing with him. And yes, I realize Hossa and Kovalchuk didn't play on the same line) is just nonsensical.

There are countless examples of players who had breakthrough-type seasons, signed a large contract and never met those numbers again. Jose Theodore is a good example of that. I would say that there are far more UFA-contracts signed after a breakthrough season which don't work out as planned than there are which do work out as planned. But that's not the point .. as stated, the point is that the two situations (Atlanta and Montreal) are not comparable, so why try to make the comparison.

I understand you don't like Ribeiro. I think everyone gets it by now. It may surprise you, but I was one of Ribeiro's more vocal detractors on this forum until this season. But you need to at least acknowledge that Ribeiro has some ability once in awhile. Otherwise it just comes across as constant chirping and borderline trolling since you dispute any positive remarks about our little Portugese Gretzky. And otherwise, you're well spoken and balanced in your posts.

The bottom line here (IMO) is that:

Montreal needs another quality top six forward type of player. Preferably a center, but not a necessity.

This past year provided more clarity in several weaknesses MTL has up front:

- first line players (when Koivu went down, first line was lost)

- down the middle, MTL was beaten by Carolina (blame Ribeiro; blame the fact that Montreal doesn't have a Brind'Amour type player while every remaining team in the East does--BUF with Drury; OTT with Fisher; NJ with Madden)

- second line LW was a revolving door and weak all year

Ribeiro is not the only problem with this team. It is possible for fundamentally weak players to succeed on a fundamentally strong team so long as they're not the only weak link that plays an important role. Gomez in his early years was very comparable to Ribeiro: he was slow, thin, a good playmaker who didn't finish all that well, and he was completely dominated down low if he was caught on the ice on the wrong match-up. NJ shielded Gomez from the better opponents because of this. Yet he was still successful and had tremendous chemistry to provide secondary scoring with Mogilny and Brylin down the stretch & playoffs.

I know Gomez has developed, improved and was probably a stronger offensive player as soon as he entered the league. But the comparison stands in that Gomez was fundamentally (and physically) weak in a system that relied on very strong intangible players.

Will Ribeiro improve to that point? I don't know. But he has shown more tenacity, less acting, and improved (though not at the right times) in the neutral zone.

If Montreal sees an opportunity to pick up a better center--terrific. But I'd sooner shore up the two other noticeable issues with this forward group (lack of a real first-line, lack of a quality second line LW) because I'm optimistic that Ribeiro would be OK if he was the only weak-link in this top six forward group. In fact, I think he could be useful because he does have some good raw ability.

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05-08-2006, 10:34 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck
OK, then how about the fact that Savard scored 26 goals? Wouldn't that be an upgrade over Ribeiro?
I never said he would not be an improvement over Ribeiro but you also have to look at the team and players he was with the last two season and the fact we do not have a Heatley, Kovalchuk or Hossa on our wings.

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05-08-2006, 11:38 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf
I never said he would not be an improvement over Ribeiro but you also have to look at the team and players he was with the last two season and the fact we do not have a Heatley, Kovalchuk or Hossa on our wings.
Exactly.
Anyway Marc Savard is not the kind of player you want on a TEAM. This guy is a true individualist, and don't expect he'll sign with Montreal. Marc Savard is from Ottawa, his parents are franco-ontarians but he doesn't want to speak french (Don't know why by the way). The expectative to get him in there is very very very limited.

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05-08-2006, 11:45 PM
  #50
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I was looking over the stickied thread in the Trade & FA Forum, and two useful depth guys might be Marc Chouinard and Malhotra. They can play wing or center, and they can give 30+ points in a defensive role. That may not seem like much, but Begin, in a career year, just gave the team 22 points. (Nothing needs to be said about Bonk's 2 goals.) There's a lot of focus on upgrading at the top, but I suspect Carbonneau wants a little more character and/or veteran versatility at the bottom. Yelle or either of these two guys would help.

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