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Who is a legit HOFer who often unfairly gets bashed

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Old
05-10-2006, 01:59 PM
  #1
Big Phil
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Who is a legit HOFer who often unfairly gets bashed

I have a list of guys who I can never understand why they get picked on as Hall of Famers. To me they are legit ones, or are soon to be legit ones.

Bill Barber - This guy had 883 points in 903 games. That's a point a game. He only played 12 years since he injured his knee in '84. But his big season is '75-76 with 50 goals and 112 points. He was a first team all-star that year. He was second team all-star in '79 and '81. Throw in two Cup wins, and then two more Cup final appearances and it shows Barber was a winner. He had some big goals in his career as well, the '76 Canada Cup tied the game late in regulation in game 2 vs. the Czechs, Game 4 of the '74 Cup final. Barber was at least a top ten player in '76 maybe top 5 that year. To me he's a legit HOFer.

Steve Shutt - He's similar to Barber IMO. Had a 12-13 year career. He won five Cups. The four in a row he was a huge part in. He had 98 playoff points in 99 games. He led the league in goals in '77 with 60. He was a first team all-star in '77, second team in '78 and '80. Sure you have the Lafleur factor but we never had the chance to see those two apart so you cant compare it. Shutt may be near the bottom of the HOF list but he's in there.

Guy Lapointe - Not to many people mention him, but I read earlier this year in The Hockey News how he was a weak pick. It got me thinking: Why? Lapointe is a 6 time Cup winner. He played in the '72 Summit Series and the '76 Canada Cup. He was second team all-star in '75, '76 and '77. Would the habs of still won Cups if he wasnt on the team? yeah. But he was hardly a plug, and if you take Lapointe off that team it wouldnt surprise me if the Habs have one less Cup in those years.

Pat Lafontaine - Think about this. 865 games. 1013 points. That is very good. Much like Shutt Lafontaine is near the bottom of the HOF, but IMO he's without a doubt in there. Two 100 point plus seasons. Second in league scoring in '93 with a whopping 148 points. Second team all-star that year. No Cups, but one Cup finals appearance and he wasnt a slouch come playoff time either. The numbers arent bad. I think his '93 season puts him over the edge but the point is it puts him over the edge.

Daryl Sittler - The all time single game point leader. Twice 100+ points. Five goals in a playoff game. 484 career goals most of the time on Leaf teams. I hate when people question this guy.

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05-10-2006, 03:18 PM
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Evilo
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Some people that say Francis was never a top 20 forward.

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05-10-2006, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Evilo
Some people that say Francis was never a top 20 forward.
Yes, some people think that Shakespeare was a pseudonym. Some people still think the Earth is flat, too.

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05-10-2006, 03:33 PM
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LaFontaine is a deserved HHOFer. From 1988 to 1996, when he was healthy, he was almost peerless, one of the top 5 to 10 players in the league. Watch him play in 1989-90, when he carried a dog Islanders team to the playoffs, or from 1991-93 with Buffalo, when he was unstoppable. Only injuries could stop him. And he was far from a one-dimensional offensive threat.

Sittler scored at a pro-rated 98-point clip over an eight-year stretch. Not quite a "decade of dominance" but pretty damn impressive.

Most can expect who I'll name: Cam Neely. A four-time all-star at right wing, he a 50-50 season, and the best combination of goals and physical play in the last 30 years from a player other than Messier. Fourth all-time in playoff goals per game. And the guy never had a prime. The closest thing he had to a prime was the 1991 playoffs, when he tore the Wales Conference apart until the Ulf Samuelsson cheap shot. That 1991 playoffs was to be the start of his true dominance. IMO, he's one of the top 100 players ever, and when you look at what he accomplished, even though his prime years were snuffed out, it's not that much of a stretch.

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05-10-2006, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Some people that say Francis was never a top 20 forward.
I knock Francis more than just about anyone, but I've never said he wasn't ever a top 20 forward. He isn't a top 20 forward all-time, and he was rarely a top 5-10 forward, but top 2- is going too far.

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05-10-2006, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I knock Francis more than just about anyone, but I've never said he wasn't ever a top 20 forward. He isn't a top 20 forward all-time, and he was rarely a top 5-10 forward, but top 2- is going too far.
Agreed, JFF, although I'm a pretty big Francis fan. There were times in his career where you could justify him as a top 10 forward in the league, but he's not top 20 or 25 all-time material. But Francis' consistent all-round excellence, work ethic, leadership and off-ice class have punched his much-deserved ticket to the HHOF.

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05-10-2006, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Phil
Guy Lapointe - Not to many people mention him, but I read earlier this year in The Hockey News how he was a weak pick.
I haven`t read that rag in a long time, but I`m not surprised they would print something that stupid. Up to the mid-90s, THN was considered an essential resource for most fans. Unfortunately, the influence of Steve Dryden, Mike Brophy and worst of all Jason Kay has plunged the paper into almost total irrelevance. It`s quite sad.
It was likely a case of some writer who never saw LaPointe play compare his point totals to Larry Murphy`s and conclude he wasn`t as good a player.

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05-10-2006, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil
I have a list of guys who I can never understand why they get picked on as Hall of Famers. To me they are legit ones, or are soon to be legit ones.

Bill Barber - This guy had 883 points in 903 games. That's a point a game. He only played 12 years since he injured his knee in '84. But his big season is '75-76 with 50 goals and 112 points. He was a first team all-star that year. He was second team all-star in '79 and '81. Throw in two Cup wins, and then two more Cup final appearances and it shows Barber was a winner. He had some big goals in his career as well, the '76 Canada Cup tied the game late in regulation in game 2 vs. the Czechs, Game 4 of the '74 Cup final. Barber was at least a top ten player in '76 maybe top 5 that year. To me he's a legit HOFer.

Steve Shutt - He's similar to Barber IMO. Had a 12-13 year career. He won five Cups. The four in a row he was a huge part in. He had 98 playoff points in 99 games. He led the league in goals in '77 with 60. He was a first team all-star in '77, second team in '78 and '80. Sure you have the Lafleur factor but we never had the chance to see those two apart so you cant compare it. Shutt may be near the bottom of the HOF list but he's in there.

Guy Lapointe - Not to many people mention him, but I read earlier this year in The Hockey News how he was a weak pick. It got me thinking: Why? Lapointe is a 6 time Cup winner. He played in the '72 Summit Series and the '76 Canada Cup. He was second team all-star in '75, '76 and '77. Would the habs of still won Cups if he wasnt on the team? yeah. But he was hardly a plug, and if you take Lapointe off that team it wouldnt surprise me if the Habs have one less Cup in those years.

Pat Lafontaine - Think about this. 865 games. 1013 points. That is very good. Much like Shutt Lafontaine is near the bottom of the HOF, but IMO he's without a doubt in there. Two 100 point plus seasons. Second in league scoring in '93 with a whopping 148 points. Second team all-star that year. No Cups, but one Cup finals appearance and he wasnt a slouch come playoff time either. The numbers arent bad. I think his '93 season puts him over the edge but the point is it puts him over the edge.

Daryl Sittler - The all time single game point leader. Twice 100+ points. Five goals in a playoff game. 484 career goals most of the time on Leaf teams. I hate when people question this guy.
To tell you the truth, all of these guys belong in the "official" HOF based on the low standards that exist. There are worse players in there. Most notably Pulford & Giles. I tend to agree with the "Woldlwide Hall of Fame Site" whereas none of these guys plus many others are omitted"

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05-10-2006, 08:49 PM
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Wayne Gretzky

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05-10-2006, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Wayne Gretzky

guy lafleur

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05-10-2006, 09:25 PM
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reckoning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Wayne Gretzky
The thread title is "Who is a legit HOFer who often unfairly gets bashed?

Chooch answered Wayne Gretzky.

Yes, Wayne Gretzky is a HOFer who often unfairly gets bashed.

I always knew you respected Gretzky deep down inside. Congratulations.

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05-10-2006, 10:43 PM
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Darryl Sittler wouldn't be a Hall of Famer if he didn't play for the Maple Leafs. His numbers are decent but nothing particularly special, and his playoff numbers are ok but don't include any lengthly playoff runs. His biggest claim to fame is pretty much a gimmick (points in a single game).

I don't see how anyone could think Sittler is a clear Hall of Famer and then not feel the same way about guys like Sundin, Selanne, Modano, Roenick, etc.

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05-10-2006, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Epsilon
Darryl Sittler wouldn't be a Hall of Famer if he didn't play for the Maple Leafs. His numbers are decent but nothing particularly special, and his playoff numbers are ok but don't include any lengthly playoff runs. His biggest claim to fame is pretty much a gimmick (points in a single game).

I don't see how anyone could think Sittler is a clear Hall of Famer and then not feel the same way about guys like Sundin, Selanne, Modano, Roenick, etc.
Like I said before, he scored at a 98-point clip over an eight-year span in his prime. (That's taking his point totals, divided by games, and pro-rating the total over 80 games. No so-called weighting for era).

The selection committee for the HHOF is much different than baseball's. Hockey has an 18-person committee, with two members changing every year. They come from different parts of the game. (Coaches, GMs, former players, and a few media members). The smaller committee size can often be blamed for dubious selections, but the composition prevents players from being selected based on where they play. Baseball's HOF selection committee is over 400, but it's media only, and gives an advantage to players who starred in large markets.

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05-10-2006, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
The thread title is "Who is a legit HOFer who often unfairly gets bashed?

Chooch answered Wayne Gretzky.

Yes, Wayne Gretzky is a HOFer who often unfairly gets bashed.

I always knew you respected Gretzky deep down inside. Congratulations.
hahahahahahahahahahaha

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05-11-2006, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
Like I said before, he scored at a 98-point clip over an eight-year span in his prime. (That's taking his point totals, divided by games, and pro-rating the total over 80 games. No so-called weighting for era).
... and Bernie Federko scored at a 100-point clip over a 10 year stretch, and is considered one of the weakest HHOF guys ever.

If any HHOF guy gets unfair abuse, it's Federko. The guy was one of the top 5 or so scorers in of the 1980s, top-10 in scoring I think 5 times, and was a top-15 all-time scorer when he retired despite quitting at age 33 with lots of gas left in the tank. Outside of Gretzky, he was one of the top 2 or 3 playmaking centers in the game for a decade. And was huge in the playoffs despite playing for also-ran teams for the most part. Yet people talk about him like he was little more than an average player.

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05-11-2006, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil
I have a list of guys who I can never understand why they get picked on as Hall of Famers. To me they are legit ones, or are soon to be legit ones.

Bill Barber - This guy had 883 points in 903 games. That's a point a game. He only played 12 years since he injured his knee in '84. But his big season is '75-76 with 50 goals and 112 points. He was a first team all-star that year. He was second team all-star in '79 and '81. Throw in two Cup wins, and then two more Cup final appearances and it shows Barber was a winner. He had some big goals in his career as well, the '76 Canada Cup tied the game late in regulation in game 2 vs. the Czechs, Game 4 of the '74 Cup final. Barber was at least a top ten player in '76 maybe top 5 that year. To me he's a legit HOFer.

Steve Shutt - He's similar to Barber IMO. Had a 12-13 year career. He won five Cups. The four in a row he was a huge part in. He had 98 playoff points in 99 games. He led the league in goals in '77 with 60. He was a first team all-star in '77, second team in '78 and '80. Sure you have the Lafleur factor but we never had the chance to see those two apart so you cant compare it. Shutt may be near the bottom of the HOF list but he's in there.

Guy Lapointe - Not to many people mention him, but I read earlier this year in The Hockey News how he was a weak pick. It got me thinking: Why? Lapointe is a 6 time Cup winner. He played in the '72 Summit Series and the '76 Canada Cup. He was second team all-star in '75, '76 and '77. Would the habs of still won Cups if he wasnt on the team? yeah. But he was hardly a plug, and if you take Lapointe off that team it wouldnt surprise me if the Habs have one less Cup in those years.

Pat Lafontaine - Think about this. 865 games. 1013 points. That is very good. Much like Shutt Lafontaine is near the bottom of the HOF, but IMO he's without a doubt in there. Two 100 point plus seasons. Second in league scoring in '93 with a whopping 148 points. Second team all-star that year. No Cups, but one Cup finals appearance and he wasnt a slouch come playoff time either. The numbers arent bad. I think his '93 season puts him over the edge but the point is it puts him over the edge.

Daryl Sittler - The all time single game point leader. Twice 100+ points. Five goals in a playoff game. 484 career goals most of the time on Leaf teams. I hate when people question this guy.
They all had more impact than Joey Mullen.

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05-11-2006, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
The thread title is "Who is a legit HOFer who often unfairly gets bashed?

Chooch answered Wayne Gretzky.

Yes, Wayne Gretzky is a HOFer who often unfairly gets bashed.

I always knew you respected Gretzky deep down inside. Congratulations.
I never liked the fact Gretzky got early HOF membership. Howe didn't, Orr didn't, Richard didn't, Morenz didn't. Gretzky is IMO the best player ever, but he should have waited like all the other all-time greats.

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05-11-2006, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
The thread title is "Who is a legit HOFer who often unfairly gets bashed?

Chooch answered Wayne Gretzky.

Yes, Wayne Gretzky is a HOFer who often unfairly gets bashed.

I always knew you respected Gretzky deep down inside. Congratulations.
PWNED!!!


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05-11-2006, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe
I never liked the fact Gretzky got early HOF membership. Howe didn't, Orr didn't, Richard didn't, Morenz didn't. Gretzky is IMO the best player ever, but he should have waited like all the other all-time greats.
All those guys did get in immediately, as well as a few other players (Beliveau was one), except for Morenz because the Hall wasn`t created until long after his death.
They changed it since Gretzky`s induction so the three year wait period won`t be waived again.

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05-11-2006, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
The thread title is "Who is a legit HOFer who often unfairly gets bashed?

Chooch answered Wayne Gretzky.

Yes, Wayne Gretzky is a HOFer who often unfairly gets bashed.

I always knew you respected Gretzky deep down inside. Congratulations.
I knew you were low on wit once i realized that "Elias is the greatest LW" thread wasnt meant to be tongue in cheek.

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05-12-2006, 01:34 AM
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If any HHOF guy gets unfair abuse, it's Federko. The guy was one of the top 5 or so scorers in of the 1980s, top-10 in scoring I think 5 times, and was a top-15 all-time scorer when he retired despite quitting at age 33 with lots of gas left in the tank. Outside of Gretzky, he was one of the top 2 or 3 playmaking centers in the game for a decade. And was huge in the playoffs despite playing for also-ran teams for the most part. Yet people talk about him like he was little more than an average player.
Yeah, his playoff stats are very interesting. 101 points in 90 games, well over a point per game. That's a PPG much better than Francis, better than LaFontaine, better than Savard, better than Hawerchuk, better than Gilmour, better than Oates, better than Trottier, comparable to Yzerman, Sakic, Esposito, and Stastny... need I continue? And he was never on a great team.

But I don't think I've ever seen an old Blues playoff game, so I'm just going by stats here. I'm sure he didn't rack up all those points by fluke though.

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05-13-2006, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
Like I said before, he scored at a 98-point clip over an eight-year span in his prime. (That's taking his point totals, divided by games, and pro-rating the total over 80 games. No so-called weighting for era).

The selection committee for the HHOF is much different than baseball's. Hockey has an 18-person committee, with two members changing every year. They come from different parts of the game. (Coaches, GMs, former players, and a few media members). The smaller committee size can often be blamed for dubious selections, but the composition prevents players from being selected based on where they play. Baseball's HOF selection committee is over 400, but it's media only, and gives an advantage to players who starred in large markets.
The Anti Selanne guy is pro Sitler?

how about pro rating selanne's stats vs Sitlers?

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05-13-2006, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by MS
... and Bernie Federko scored at a 100-point clip over a 10 year stretch, and is considered one of the weakest HHOF guys ever.

If any HHOF guy gets unfair abuse, it's Federko. The guy was one of the top 5 or so scorers in of the 1980s, top-10 in scoring I think 5 times, and was a top-15 all-time scorer when he retired despite quitting at age 33 with lots of gas left in the tank. Outside of Gretzky, he was one of the top 2 or 3 playmaking centers in the game for a decade. And was huge in the playoffs despite playing for also-ran teams for the most part. Yet people talk about him like he was little more than an average player.
Federko never finished in the top 7 in NHL scoring in any season but he was a top 7 assist man 6 times. None of his top 7 spots were in the top 3. He was never considered for the Hart trophy and never won a cup. I have him as #59 on my greatests playmakers list.

There is good reason Federko is questioned as a HOFer.

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05-13-2006, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
The thread title is "Who is a legit HOFer who often unfairly gets bashed?

Chooch answered Wayne Gretzky.

Yes, Wayne Gretzky is a HOFer who often unfairly gets bashed.

I always knew you respected Gretzky deep down inside. Congratulations.
[IMAGE]http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/5165/lmao8bc.png[/IMAGE]

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05-13-2006, 02:26 PM
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Mats Sundin
Teemu Selanne
Curtis Joseph

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