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Old
05-11-2006, 07:20 AM
  #1
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No Bandaid Deals Please

Looking at the way the Canes have beat up the Devils , it shows how much work we have to do to move forward. We are not in their league , even though we had the chance to win . Hopefully Gainey doesn`t start spending on minor upgrades that don`t make the difference. We have 2 priorities that must be fixed .

1) Huet must be signed - he is a key for us until Price is ready to go. Give him a fair 2-3 year deal, and lock him up. If Abby has to go to free up cash do so.

2) # 71 has to be replaced , I DON`T CARE HOW CHEAP IS, WE HAVE SEEN WHAT HE DOES COME PLAYOFF TIME, HE IS NOT A SECOND LINE CENTER, he is soft defensively, isn`t a scorer, is very creative but doesnt get the job done, bottom line.How many more dissapointment years do you need.

Spending 3-4 mil a year of vets like Arnott , Langenbrunner, etc is a waste of $$$
and it will THEO all over again. We need differnece makers , these are fillers WHO MAYBE THE MISSING INGREDIENT TO A CUP CALIBER TEAM ,not us , we aren`t there yet. By the time we improve , Arnott is done , plus at 31, are we getting his best years , or decline years?

BG has to be creative, he has to use his assets and make a deal that moves us in the right direction. Like I said before, if we are not going to use Perez and Kost as top 6 forwards use them as bait, for help in an area of need.
Look at San Jose , THEY MADE THE THORNTON DEAL TO TURN THEM AROUND.
I

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05-11-2006, 07:46 AM
  #2
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[QUOTE=geeman]Looking at the way the Canes have beat up the Devils , it shows how much work we have to do to move forward. We are not in their league , even though we had the chance to win . Hopefully Gainey doesn`t start spending on minor upgrades that don`t make the difference. We have 2 priorities that must be fixed .

1) Huet must be signed - he is a key for us until Price is ready to go. Give him a fair 2-3 year deal, and lock him up. If Abby has to go to free up cash do so.

2) # 71 has to be replaced , I DON`T CARE HOW CHEAP IS, WE HAVE SEEN WHAT HE DOES COME PLAYOFF TIME, HE IS NOT A SECOND LINE CENTER, he is soft defensively, isn`t a scorer, is very creative but doesnt get the job done, bottom line.How many more dissapointment years do you need.

Spending 3-4 mil a year of vets like Arnott , Langenbrunner, etc is a waste of $$$
and it will THEO all over again. We need differnece makers , these are fillers WHO MAYBE THE MISSING INGREDIENT TO A CUP CALIBER TEAM ,not us , we aren`t there yet. By the time we improve , Arnott is done , plus at 31, are we getting his best years , or decline years?

BG has to be creative, he has to use his assets and make a deal that moves us in the right direction. Like I said before, if we are not going to use Perez and Kost as top 6 forwards use them as bait, for help in an area of need.
Look at San Jose , THEY MADE THE THORNTON DEAL TO TURN THEM AROUND.

we can mention all the names we want , but make a move that makes sense
where we can work for the next 3-4 years. If all we can address is the defence for example , go after Kubina, and another stud , at least we SOLVE one area . We improve 40-50 goals against and we win more games. After next year Rivet or Souray are gone ,and Cube and Streit are not what we need moving forward, why spend 1.5 mil a year on Cube when we might get Kubina for 3-3.5, a much better upgrade . Just don`t waste money on plyers who cant make a difference to us.
don`t pay Bulis 2-2.5 as a free agent , he isn`t worth it .

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05-11-2006, 08:02 AM
  #3
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There are certain qualifiers though. I see the Canes as a perfect example of the 'best player' theory. Everyone's role changes because of the presence of Staal. Added to the fact that Cole now plays aginst most teams the way he plays against Mtl. you have top end talent maturing at the same time. The Canes had to suffer to be in position to draft Staal and Ladd. Mtl. hasn't ever gotten to that point.

If you need good forune to draft that type of player outside of the top few picks, you look to deal for someone if that's the way to go. Do we have a prospect of Stuart's equal to put together with atop forward like Sturm to get a Thornton ? Zednik and Komi aren't going to get the same return. I think Gainey sniffed around Bertuzzi, right or wrong, for that reason though, or that type of deal.

Buffalo is an example of the other rout a team can take. Fast, agressive team play. Briere has become elite, but in truth Buffalo is a model for teams with everyone on the same page.

Regarding staying away from mid level players to save for the home run, yeah, I'd love Kubina. I don't think 3.5 will get him though. I think the direction will be determined by whether the guys the staff wants, consider Mtl. as a viable destination. Kovalev and Koivu were in part signed, because they were willing to.

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05-11-2006, 08:06 AM
  #4
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I like what you're saying. Although I don't quite agree that adding a Jamie Langenbrunner or a Jason Arnott would be a mistake, I too would like to see Gainey make a blockbuster-like move. The kind of move I would most like to see is for him to package a prospect/rookie with one of the disgruntled or unwanted or replaceable veterans and a pick for a real second line center. For example - just an example, not a proposal - Brad Richards from Tampa in exchange for Perezhogin or Kostitsyn with Aebischer or Souray and/or Ribeiro and a 1st and a 2nd. If a player of Richards' or Patrick Marleau's calibre can be brought in, I think losing those players would be worth it.

On a slightly different topic, does anyone know if Patrik Elias is a free agent? I coudn't see Lamoriello letting him walk away, but he would just be an awesome signing.

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05-11-2006, 08:26 AM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geeman
BG has to be creative, he has to use his assets and make a deal that moves us in the right direction. Like I said before, if we are not going to use Perez and Kost as top 6 forwards use them as bait, for help in an area of need.
Look at San Jose , THEY MADE THE THORNTON DEAL TO TURN THEM AROUND.
I
Yeah. Its easy to point to the Thornton modelas an inspiration for team development, but the truth is:

1. How many GMs are ready to trade away their franchise forward? (and lose their job if their last name is not Millbury.)

2. Do we have the rookie caliber necessary to throw around to get that guy? Would it even be wise?

Another, more achievable model for would would be Buffalo or Anaheim IMO.

Especially Anaheim.... This team impresses me so much.

Taking other teams garbage and turning them into first line 25-30 min/defensemen..

Signing undrafted prospects as free agents and inserting them in the lineup successfully?

I know what I'd do... hire myself an army... of SCOUTS!

I'd make another CIA: Canadiens Intelligence Agency!

Knowing everything in every league!


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Old
05-11-2006, 09:55 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geeman
Spending 3-4 mil a year of vets like Arnott , Langenbrunner, etc is a waste of $$$
and it will THEO all over again. We need differnece makers , these are fillers WHO MAYBE THE MISSING INGREDIENT TO A CUP CALIBER TEAM ,not us , we aren`t there yet. By the time we improve , Arnott is done , plus at 31, are we getting his best years , or decline years?
Although I don't agree with much of what you said, I really do agree that spending big bucks for guys such as Arnott and Langenbrunner is a complete waste of resources. These guys have always been good, but are not gamebreakers and I would much rather have Kosts in the lineup next season then paying for such vets. It's Yanick Perrault/Donald Audette all over again with these guys. Sure, they are bigger and more physical, but they can't be counted on to carry this team which is already too full of supporting actors.

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Old
05-11-2006, 10:06 AM
  #7
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good post, this is my point ,FOLKS I WANT TO WIN A CUP , if we think Ribs is the answer moving forward , WE ARE DEAMERS , AND FOOLISH . We are stuck with Koivu for now, as a makeshift # 1 . But the other response of Richards is a perfect
example , NOT SURE WHAT IT WILL TAKE TO GET HIM , if he will be made available.
But he is a MAJOR UPGRADE , A STAR CALIBER PLAYER , superior to Ribs plus he is 26 , you could work with him moving forward. TBAY , CANNOT PAY both Richards
and Kubina , while kepping Vinny and Marty, something has to give. Feaster may just want youth to get something for him , for example if Danis, Kosty, and Komi
is what they want DO YOU TAKE THE DEAL, if we can lock him for 5 years?
Komi might be a 3rd Damn , Kosty like I said, if you don`t play him , why keep him.
Danis might be a solid goalie down the road but not with us.

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05-11-2006, 10:12 AM
  #8
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There is the problem. Ppl think its a one year process....why cant it happen over 2 years?

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Old
05-11-2006, 10:33 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee
There are certain qualifiers though. I see the Canes as a perfect example of the 'best player' theory. Everyone's role changes because of the presence of Staal. Added to the fact that Cole now plays aginst most teams the way he plays against Mtl. you have top end talent maturing at the same time. The Canes had to suffer to be in position to draft Staal and Ladd. Mtl. hasn't ever gotten to that point.

If you need good forune to draft that type of player outside of the top few picks, you look to deal for someone if that's the way to go. Do we have a prospect of Stuart's equal to put together with atop forward like Sturm to get a Thornton ? Zednik and Komi aren't going to get the same return. I think Gainey sniffed around Bertuzzi, right or wrong, for that reason though, or that type of deal.

Buffalo is an example of the other rout a team can take. Fast, agressive team play. Briere has become elite, but in truth Buffalo is a model for teams with everyone on the same page.

Regarding staying away from mid level players to save for the home run, yeah, I'd love Kubina. I don't think 3.5 will get him though. I think the direction will be determined by whether the guys the staff wants, consider Mtl. as a viable destination. Kovalev and Koivu were in part signed, because they were willing to.
A sensible post. The Habs would have to get very lucky to land a franchise player, the way the Bruins got Patrice Bergeron. If they hadn't drafted Bergeron, their future would be bleak because the players they acquired from San Jose (Stuart, Sturm, and the lesser Primeau) aren't capable of generating the same impact as Thornton on a team's chances of getting deep into the playoffs. Since the Habs are unlikely to find a gem in the draft, and they lack trading chips (the usual suspects have little value for most other teams), the only way they can add all-stars is by throwing money at them.

The Buffalo model is timely because it shows what a fast, cohesive team can do even to a powerhouse like Ottawa. Of course I don't believe the Sabres would be up 3-0 if they didn't have superior goaltending. The Habs aren't as fast and they aren't as cohesive. The Sabres' coverage in their own zone simply isn't seen very often when the Habs are on the defensive. The Habs are also short on sharpshooters and forwards who take advantage of split second opportunities.

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Old
05-11-2006, 10:43 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geeman
good post, this is my point ,FOLKS I WANT TO WIN A CUP , if we think Ribs is the answer moving forward , WE ARE DEAMERS , AND FOOLISH . We are stuck with Koivu for now, as a makeshift # 1 . But the other response of Richards is a perfect
example , NOT SURE WHAT IT WILL TAKE TO GET HIM , if he will be made available.
But he is a MAJOR UPGRADE , A STAR CALIBER PLAYER , superior to Ribs plus he is 26 , you could work with him moving forward. TBAY , CANNOT PAY both Richards
and Kubina , while kepping Vinny and Marty, something has to give. Feaster may just want youth to get something for him , for example if Danis, Kosty, and Komi
is what they want DO YOU TAKE THE DEAL, if we can lock him for 5 years?
Komi might be a 3rd Damn , Kosty like I said, if you don`t play him , why keep him.
Danis might be a solid goalie down the road but not with us.
Suppose Feaster is willing to part with one of his top players. What would he accept for Richards or Lecavalier? I believe other teams can offer him more attractive assets than the Habs unless Gainey goes berserk and strips the roster and the prospect pool. That's highly unlikely.

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05-11-2006, 10:45 AM
  #11
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I think this is pretty silly. The Habs essentially outplayed the Canes for every game except game 4 and maybe game 5. Games 3 and 6 could have easily gone the Habs' way, and the way they played, they should have. Unfortunately, the point of hockey is to outscore the other team, and no matter how well you play, sometimes you just can't win.

Some people are making it sound like Carolina dominated. If the Habs played that way, 8 times out of 10, they would probably have won the series.

Calm the **** down.

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Old
05-11-2006, 10:48 AM
  #12
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Getting rid of Ribeiro wouldn't be easy. He doesn't have an army of admirers among other GMs, and he's gained more notoriety for his antics than accolades for his scoring. Has any fan on this board heard even a whisper of a trade rumor involving Ribeiro?

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05-11-2006, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck
He doesn't have an army of admirers among other GMs, and he's gained more notoriety for his antics than accolades for his scoring.
Wow, what else have NHL GMs told you?

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05-11-2006, 11:35 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geeman
THEY MADE THE THORNTON DEAL TO TURN THEM AROUND.

Agree however if you put,Brad Stuart,Marco Sturm and Wayne Primeau in our lineup we do not loose to the Hurricannes.We do not have the players that make other teams go .It's hard for us to make a trade like that.

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05-11-2006, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Shazbot
The kind of move I would most like to see is for him to package a prospect/rookie with one of the disgruntled or unwanted or replaceable veterans and a pick for a real second line center. For example - just an example, not a proposal - Brad Richards from Tampa ...

On a slightly different topic, does anyone know if Patrik Elias is a free agent? I coudn't see Lamoriello letting him walk away, but he would just be an awesome signing.
Ellias is afree agent .

About Richards ; he would be a real FIRST liner for the Habs .Not a REAL SECOND liner ....

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05-11-2006, 12:35 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck
A sensible post. The Habs would have to get very lucky to land a franchise player, the way the Bruins got Patrice Bergeron. If they hadn't drafted Bergeron, their future would be bleak because the players they acquired from San Jose (Stuart, Sturm, and the lesser Primeau) aren't capable of generating the same impact as Thornton on a team's chances of getting deep into the playoffs. Since the Habs are unlikely to find a gem in the draft, and they lack trading chips (the usual suspects have little value for most other teams), the only way they can add all-stars is by throwing money at them.

The Buffalo model is timely because it shows what a fast, cohesive team can do even to a powerhouse like Ottawa. Of course I don't believe the Sabres would be up 3-0 if they didn't have superior goaltending. The Habs aren't as fast and they aren't as cohesive. The Sabres' coverage in their own zone simply isn't seen very often when the Habs are on the defensive. The Habs are also short on sharpshooters and forwards who take advantage of split second opportunities.
Players like Drury and Briere were within the Habs reach but different choices were made. Keeping perezhogin and pleks would be a start as they are buffallo style players

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05-11-2006, 12:40 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toshiro
Players like Drury and Briere were within the Habs reach but different choices were made. Keeping perezhogin and pleks would be a start as they are buffallo style players
To me, they're good players. You keep adding and developing good players until you have a surplus and can look to acquire a great player.

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05-11-2006, 12:48 PM
  #18
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[QUOTE=geeman]
Quote:
Originally Posted by geeman
Looking at... he isn`t worth it .

Did you just quote yourself and answered your own post?
Also, capital letters are mainly used to begin a sentence, using it randomly makes your post seem childish so forgive me if I didn't read it.

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05-11-2006, 01:30 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck
A sensible post. The Habs would have to get very lucky to land a franchise player,the way the Bruins got Patrice Bergeron. If they hadn't drafted Bergeron, their future would be bleak because the players they acquired from San Jose (Stuart, Sturm, and the lesser Primeau) aren't capable of generating the same impact as Thornton on a team's chances of getting deep into the playoffs. Since the Habs are unlikely to find a gem in the draft, and they lack trading chips (the usual suspects have little value for most other teams), the only way they can add all-stars is by throwing money at them.
.
Do you always have to use those extemes statements?

Mcphee's post mentionned options and outlined differences in building a franchise and after praising him for it you decide categorically that there's only one way to go and wich one.

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05-11-2006, 01:41 PM
  #20
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Originally Posted by toshiro
Players like Drury and Briere were within the Habs reach but different choices were made. Keeping perezhogin and pleks would be a start as they are buffallo style players
I don't know about that. Drury was dealt originally for (a perhaps overrated) Derek Morris. Then he was dealt for Rhett Warrener, who's been a stable rock on the Flames blueline. I don't see anyone Montreal had to offer that would be Warrener's equal.

In any event, I do think Montreal could use a strong third line/borderline second line center. If we look around at the teams remaining in the playoffs, all of them have a third-line/borderline second line center stepping up in a big way: Mike Peca for Edmonton; Mike Fisher for Ottawa; Brind'Amour in Carolina; Drury in Buffalo; Pahlsson (and Marchant) in Anaheim; Mark Smith in SJ.

The teams that don't have someone stepping up in that capacity (Madden in NJ; Colorado is sadly over-dependent on Dowd) are failing.

This position is just as important as a star player in the playoffs.


EDIT: And this is why I don't believe that a scoring second-line center is necessarily needed so much as just a star-offensive player. Doesn't matter if it's a center or winger. I'd even prefer a winger, because I think having Koivu, Plekanec, then one of the aforementioned types of centers, then one of Lapierre or Chipchura on the fourth line is just fine as far as center depth is concerned.

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05-11-2006, 02:15 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by sXe
Do you always have to use those extemes statements?

Mcphee's post mentionned options and outlined differences in building a franchise and after praising him for it you decide categorically that there's only one way to go and wich one.
You choose to view them as extreme statements, but I base my projections on what is likely and what is unlikely.

I believe I said (or at least implied) that the only practical way to make an immediate major upgrade is by offering money for the most desirable players. Do you know of another way besides bidding for UFAs for the Habs to acquire elite players rapidly? For example, trades with Tampa Bay in particular have been suggested by several posters in this forum. I'm skeptical that any of them will materialize because 1) I believe several other teams would make offers and 2) it's unlikely that Feaster would trade prime players to a team that competed with his own for the last two playoff spots. (Would you want to see Lecavalier or Richards kill the Lightning?) As for the alternative route (like the Sabres), I am all for it, although it would take time. I don't demand instant gratification.

I don't have to reiterate my dissatisfaction with Ribeiro because it's too well known here. Much as I want him gone, I expect to see him back with the Habs next season because they don't have anyone to replace him and they don't have a lot of trade options to bring in someone better.

As for finding gems in the draft, the Habs are unlikely to hit immediate paydirt with a mid-round pick. Do you dispute that? For example, Kyle Chipchura was drafted in 2004. Let's assume he has the potential to become a star. However, he won't have the opportunity to play for the Habs until 2006-07 and perhaps later. So he probably wouldn't be able to make a major contribution until 2008, four years after his draft.

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05-11-2006, 02:17 PM
  #22
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Wow, what else have NHL GMs told you?
Their silence is revealing, but perhaps you know of some who are hot for Ribeiro.

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05-11-2006, 03:21 PM
  #23
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Yeah. Its easy to point to the Thornton modelas an inspiration for team development, but the truth is:

1. How many GMs are ready to trade away their franchise forward? (and lose their job if their last name is not Millbury.)

2. Do we have the rookie caliber necessary to throw around to get that guy? Would it even be wise?

Another, more achievable model for would would be Buffalo or Anaheim IMO.

Especially Anaheim.... This team impresses me so much.

Taking other teams garbage and turning them into first line 25-30 min/defensemen..

Signing undrafted prospects as free agents and inserting them in the lineup successfully?

I know what I'd do... hire myself an army... of SCOUTS!

I'd make another CIA: Canadiens Intelligence Agency!

Knowing everything in every league!

That the CIA :
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Old
05-11-2006, 03:31 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck
You choose to view them as extreme statements, but I base my projections on what is likely and what is unlikely.
.

Admitedly, I viewed them as relating to the the building process of a franchise since I saw Mcphee's post in that light.

If you were referring to this summer only and our path until October you may be right, a little shortsighted, but acurate nonetheless.

Sorry for jumping to conclusions.

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05-11-2006, 04:03 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck
Their silence is revealing, but perhaps you know of some who are hot for Ribeiro.
You're actually right, Washington said this about Ribeiro: He doenst fit with our team, we're looking for guys with character. That was when the rumours we're surfacing for Brendan Witt. You can check out old Washing threads since I dont have a link.

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