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Old
05-15-2006, 01:17 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AGraveOne
geesh...Primeau healthy is not as good as Brind'Amour. '04 is all you got for Primeau...but he was/is still less than Rod.

Bad trade. I just hate that Primeau gets thought of as highly as Brind'Amour - Brind'Amour is the utmost of team player without care for his own numbers and such.

Does anyone remember that breakaway in the last season's playoffs where Primeau fell over nothing and then into the goalie negating his own goal by drawing an interference penalty?

I think that philly lacked so much leadership last season that it made it ideal for Primeau to be a leader...he can only profit where there is ZERO pressure. (that is my annoyed view of him)

I wish Philly had kept Brind'Amour...oh well.
as far as the only benefiting where there is zero pressure i'm not quitesure what you mean. if you mean that if he is the only guy with leadership capability then he is ok, then you sorely underestimate what JR, LeClair, and Recchi were for the Flyers in 04. If by pressure you mean by the coach, management, and city...then playing the way he did in the 04 playoffs should beself-explanatory

Keith Primeau is the heart of this hockey team. I LOVED Roddy and was really upset when the trade was made. I think that trade was a wash, whether Primeau or Brind'Amour are better hockey players is really kind of irrelevant. Primeau was exactly what the Flyers needed at the time, and so was Brind'Amour for the Canes

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05-15-2006, 01:33 PM
  #27
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The Primeau trade, while not a big fan of his, was not a bad move. The logic behind the deal made sense, Lindros and Primeau down the middle would have been an imposing combination. Primeau was still considered an offensive player at that time. While Rod is having a great year, the last 2 3 before this he looked like he was on his last legs. People need to look at the whole picture.

Vanbiesbrouck- should have never signed him at the time and went after Cuju or Richter. There was another goalier as well at that time I think can’t remember his name. I don’t want to hear Richter wasn’t going to leave NY. Money talks.

Not getting Shanahan as well was foolish.

Markov is obviously better and cheaper than Hatcher. Rathje will be fine.
Would have liked for them to convince Ragnerson to stay even if it meant to overpay a little. Certainly worth the $ Hatcher is making.

Someone mentioned Poulin, well Propp was traded a few weeks later as well to Boston and we received a 2nd rd pick. How could you not have received something way better if you packaged those 2? Not sure if Clarke was still the GM though.

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05-15-2006, 01:47 PM
  #28
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i'm certainly not judging Rod based on this season. I think career-wise Rod would have been a better fit on any team to replace Primeau. i think Primeau can be a better checking forward than Rod but in every other aspect, including heart and smarts, Brind'Amour has shown to be better - in my opinion.

As far as the pressure issue for Primeau...as long as he wasn't counted on to be the number one center, he could produce. Likewise, there were no out-spoken guys in the locker-room who wanted to be the captain, so Primeau was right for the job.

I understand, Primeau's performance in the previous playoffs attached all Flyers fans to him...but he isn't all that.

Maybe i am just speaking from my distaste of the guy...but maybe not.

At best, Primeau for Brind'Amour was a wash...until now, because of injuries to Primeau but that sort of thing is not easily predicted.

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05-15-2006, 06:21 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514
those picks would have already been used
And turned, hopefully, into prospects we could have used in the stead of some of the players we moved. Or been useful in their own rights. Just because the Caps picks sucked doesn't mean ours would have. I guess the point is it was vast overpayment, even considering the situation, and it squandered assets.

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05-15-2006, 06:30 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pit
And turned, hopefully, into prospects we could have used in the stead of some of the players we moved. Or been useful in their own rights. Just because the Caps picks sucked doesn't mean ours would have. I guess the point is it was vast overpayment, even considering the situation, and it squandered assets.

I'm not condoning that trade for Oates, but we had to do it.


Look at that draft. It was nothing after first first few players, just like it was supposed to be. If we would have drafted Stajan, Lombardi and Stoll with the 3 picks it would have been a perfect draft

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05-15-2006, 06:58 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWO
The Primeau trade, while not a big fan of his, was not a bad move. The logic behind the deal made sense, Lindros and Primeau down the middle would have been an imposing combination. Primeau was still considered an offensive player at that time. While Rod is having a great year, the last 2 3 before this he looked like he was on his last legs. People need to look at the whole picture.

Vanbiesbrouck- should have never signed him at the time and went after Cuju or Richter. There was another goalier as well at that time I think can’t remember his name. I don’t want to hear Richter wasn’t going to leave NY. Money talks.

Not getting Shanahan as well was foolish.

Markov is obviously better and cheaper than Hatcher. Rathje will be fine.
Would have liked for them to convince Ragnerson to stay even if it meant to overpay a little. Certainly worth the $ Hatcher is making.

Someone mentioned Poulin, well Propp was traded a few weeks later as well to Boston and we received a 2nd rd pick. How could you not have received something way better if you packaged those 2? Not sure if Clarke was still the GM though.
The Poulin/Propp trades were part of internal strife between (President) Jay Snider and Clarke as to the direction the team should take. Snider wanted the team to get younger and Clarke wanted to put a team together that would contend for the playoffs. The Bruins wouldn't give youth or picks for Poulin so Clarke dealt him for Linseman. It was Holmgren, as coach, who did not like the trade of Poulin for Linseman more so because of who was received; just a few games later, Holmgren benched Linseman. Propp wanted a long term pact, something he wasn't going to get in Philadelphia, and that led to issues between him and Holmgren who eventually benched him, too. The Bruins gave up the pick for Propp because of their impending Cup run. Whenever those trades are mentioned by blood pressure zooms another level.

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05-15-2006, 08:33 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles
The Poulin/Propp trades were part of internal strife between (President) Jay Snider and Clarke as to the direction the team should take. Snider wanted the team to get younger and Clarke wanted to put a team together that would contend for the playoffs. The Bruins wouldn't give youth or picks for Poulin so Clarke dealt him for Linseman. It was Holmgren, as coach, who did not like the trade of Poulin for Linseman more so because of who was received; just a few games later, Holmgren benched Linseman. Propp wanted a long term pact, something he wasn't going to get in Philadelphia, and that led to issues between him and Holmgren who eventually benched him, too. The Bruins gave up the pick for Propp because of their impending Cup run. Whenever those trades are mentioned by blood pressure zooms another level.
2 very solid and productive players you get nothing in return. where is Jay these days? Just as abd as drafting Jason bowen and Sittler. I actually liked bowen but the Flyers screwed him up should have left him on D.

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05-15-2006, 10:49 PM
  #33
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the Oates deal was bad. I loved Markov. As far as Gautier I know guys dont like him but if he can improve on his timing and improve his d game though some good instruction and coaching he could be a lesser Scott Stevens. Also we all would want J Williams, Rusty and Prospal back but they were all Radio type players when here, they went on and did big things elsewhere so 20/20 dosnt apply here.

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05-15-2006, 11:12 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AGraveOne
i'm certainly not judging Rod based on this season. I think career-wise Rod would have been a better fit on any team to replace Primeau. i think Primeau can be a better checking forward than Rod but in every other aspect, including heart and smarts, Brind'Amour has shown to be better - in my opinion.

As far as the pressure issue for Primeau...as long as he wasn't counted on to be the number one center, he could produce. Likewise, there were no out-spoken guys in the locker-room who wanted to be the captain, so Primeau was right for the job.

I understand, Primeau's performance in the previous playoffs attached all Flyers fans to him...but he isn't all that.

Maybe i am just speaking from my distaste of the guy...but maybe not.

At best, Primeau for Brind'Amour was a wash...until now, because of injuries to Primeau but that sort of thing is not easily predicted.
you're overrating Brind'Amour.

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05-16-2006, 12:53 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easton122
you're overrating Brind'Amour.
No, not at all. Brind'Amour has always been underrated around the league. I know I wish we still had Rod. He may not have the size that Keith has, but that's about it. He's got everything else, including a healthy head. Unfortunately, I think big Keith's days in Philadelphia might be coming to an end.

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05-16-2006, 08:12 AM
  #36
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If I've said it once I've said it a million times...

Kent Manderville for Billy Tibbits.

Oh, and Paul Ranheim for a Conditional Draft Pick.

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05-16-2006, 09:06 AM
  #37
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The one move I would undo is the signing of Chris Gratton in 1997. The move had a disastrous impact in many different ways:

1) The huge upfront money in the deal threw the Flyers' salary structure out of whack (and also had impact on salaries around the NHL), at a time several key Flyers players-- most importantly Lindros and LeClair-- needed to be resigned to long-term deals.

2) The Flyers were already fine in center depth, with Lindros, Brind'Amour and Otto centering the first three lines, and natural center Vaclav Prospal moved to a wing. The bigger needs were in goal and on the blueline.

3) Gratton was a huge disappointment in Philly. Don't be fooled by his overall decent stats from his first season.

In truth, almost all of his production came from November to late January (when LeClair was put on his line) and a two-week hot stretch in March.

More importantly, almost of Gratton's production came at meaningless times. Stats Inc., in its wonderful hockey stat books, tracked a category called "clutch goals" (which could be achieved several different ways, but most importantly through game-tying and go-ahead goals and third-period insurance goals, including ENGs, that stretched a one goal lead to two). Gratton's clutch goal total for the entire 1997-98 season was zero. He also had a poor home-road production split.

Considering that he only scored one goal prior to his trade the next season-- late in a blowout against Vancouver-- Gratton played about 115 games as a Flyer without ever scoring a single clutch goal. It didn't help, however, that he was moved to LW his second season and clearly was uncomfortable in that role.

4) The move pushed Dainius Zubrus into a role he clearly wasn't ready for-- which I've always thought ultimately dealt his career a major setback from which he never fully recovered offensively. Just to have matched Mikael Renberg's 1996-97 totals (in a year where Murray never used Renberg on the first powerplay unit the entire season), Zubrus at age 19 would have had to triple his rookie output. The Flyers' other first-line RW options were players like Vaclav Prospal (then a rookie), Pat Falloon, Trent Klatt and later, Alexandre Daigle (acquired for Prospal and Falloon) and Mike Sillinger.

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Old
05-16-2006, 09:21 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_Meltzer
The one move I would undo is the signing of Chris Gratton in 1997. The move had a disastrous impact in many different ways:

1) The huge upfront money in the deal threw the Flyers' salary structure out of whack (and also had impact on salaries around the NHL), at a time several key Flyers players-- most importantly Lindros and LeClair-- needed to be resigned to long-term deals.

2) The Flyers were already fine in center depth, with Lindros, Brind'Amour and Otto centering the first three lines, and natural center Vaclav Prospal moved to a wing. The bigger needs were in goal and on the blueline.

3) Gratton was a huge disappointment in Philly. Don't be fooled by his overall decent stats from his first season.

In truth, almost all of his production came from November to late January (when LeClair was put on his line) and a two-week hot stretch in March.

More importantly, almost of Gratton's production came at meaningless times. Stats Inc., in its wonderful hockey stat books, tracked a category called "clutch goals" (which could be achieved several different ways, but most importantly through game-tying and go-ahead goals and third-period insurance goals, including ENGs, that stretched a one goal lead to two). Gratton's clutch goal total for the entire 1997-98 season was zero. He also had a poor home-road production split.

Considering that he only scored one goal prior to his trade the next season-- late in a blowout against Vancouver-- Gratton played about 115 games as a Flyer without ever scoring a single clutch goal. It didn't help, however, that he was moved to LW his second season and clearly was uncomfortable in that role.

4) The move pushed Dainius Zubrus into a role he clearly wasn't ready for-- which I've always thought ultimately dealt his career a major setback from which he never fully recovered offensively. Just to have matched Mikael Renberg's 1996-97 totals (in a year where Murray never used Renberg on the first powerplay unit the entire season), Zubrus at age 19 would have had to triple his rookie output. The Flyers' other first-line RW options were players like Vaclav Prospal (then a rookie), Pat Falloon, Trent Klatt and later, Alexandre Daigle (acquired for Prospal and Falloon) and Mike Sillinger.

I don't disagree with anything you said, but in keeping with the topic, I'd also like to say "Vaclav Prospal (and Falloon) for Daigle."

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05-16-2006, 09:45 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWO
2 very solid and productive players you get nothing in return. where is Jay these days? Just as abd as drafting Jason bowen and Sittler. I actually liked bowen but the Flyers screwed him up should have left him on D.

As far as Jay goes, I think this is current:



http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelp...18/story2.html

Also, after Clarke departed, Russ Farwell became GM.

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05-16-2006, 09:56 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWO
Vanbiesbrouck- should have never signed him at the time and went after Cuju or Richter.
.
Beezer had carried Clarkes Panthers on his back to the finals. He also cost less. Cujo is still waiting to make his first cup appearance.

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05-16-2006, 10:59 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pit
And turned, hopefully, into prospects we could have used in the stead of some of the players we moved. Or been useful in their own rights. Just because the Caps picks sucked doesn't mean ours would have. I guess the point is it was vast overpayment, even considering the situation, and it squandered assets.
While the Caps' second and third rounders did not pan out, the result of the first rounder in that deal is still very much in play.

Washington packaged an extra second rounder with the Flyers' first-round pick, shipped the both of them to Dallas, and drafted Alexander Semin at #13 with the first rounder they received in return from Dallas.

Dallas may have flubbed its selection with the Flyers' pick in the 20s, but even with Ouellet busting, the Capitals are still pleased by their return from the trade of a rental.


That said, I also like that trade from Philly's point of view. Clarke was going for it, had two injured centers at the time, and landed the best available playmaker at the deadline. He was trying to win a Cup. You have to like that approach.

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05-16-2006, 11:16 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Phlyerphan
Beezer had carried Clarkes Panthers on his back to the finals. He also cost less. Cujo is still waiting to make his first cup appearance.
Don't care what he did for Florida, he should not have been the first option. cuju was the better goalie. If you disagree no problem.

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05-16-2006, 11:18 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake1588
While the Caps' second and third rounders did not pan out, the result of the first rounder in that deal is still very much in play.

Washington packaged an extra second rounder with the Flyers' first-round pick, shipped the both of them to Dallas, and drafted Alexander Semin at #13 with the first rounder they received in return from Dallas.

Dallas may have flubbed its selection with the Flyers' pick in the 20s, but even with Ouellet busting, the Capitals are still pleased by their return from the trade of a rental.


That said, I also like that trade from Philly's point of view. Clarke was going for it, had two injured centers at the time, and landed the best available playmaker at the deadline. He was trying to win a Cup. You have to like that approach.
Dont forget the third round comensatory pick when Oates left for free agency was used to pick Alexandre Picard.

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05-16-2006, 11:22 AM
  #44
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The Primeau for Brind Amour trade was more or less even until this season. The two have been comparable players since the trade. You cant blame Clarke for not predicting Primeaus concussion problem six years in advance.

The one I want back: Williams for Markov. It worked out to be Williams for a playoffs worth of Markov + 3rd round pick.

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05-16-2006, 11:25 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake1588
While the Caps' second and third rounders did not pan out, the result of the first rounder in that deal is still very much in play.

Washington packaged an extra second rounder with the Flyers' first-round pick, shipped the both of them to Dallas, and drafted Alexander Semin at #13 with the first rounder they received in return from Dallas.

Dallas may have flubbed its selection with the Flyers' pick in the 20s, but even with Ouellet busting, the Capitals are still pleased by their return from the trade of a rental.


That said, I also like that trade from Philly's point of view. Clarke was going for it, had two injured centers at the time, and landed the best available playmaker at the deadline. He was trying to win a Cup. You have to like that approach.
Agreed on the last paragraph. Oates was the League leader in assists at the time of the transaction. There is no doubt, even immediately, that the Flyers overpaid but there were potential serious injuries at the time to Roenick and Primeau earlier that week -- Clarke was desperate and the whole league knew it especially when coupled with the fact that the team's power play was ineffective at the time. LeClair, too, was struggling and a passer like Oates, it was hoped, would be the cure. With Niittymaki in the system, Ouellet could be dealt.

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05-16-2006, 11:25 AM
  #46
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What about the massive Flyers- Nords (Lindros) deal?

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05-16-2006, 11:31 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kärppä32
What about the massive Flyers- Nords (Lindros) deal?

Clarke didn't make that deal. He was just returning to the organization.

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05-16-2006, 11:51 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles
Clarke didn't make that deal. He was just returning to the organization.
I should have read the first post.

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05-16-2006, 12:41 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by NWO
Don't care what he did for Florida, he should not have been the first option. cuju was the better goalie. If you disagree no problem.

I think at the time they were both good. Clarke may have shown a little loyalty to Beezer, considering what he'd done for him previously. A lot more people agree with you on this discussion, and I don't disagree. But the fact of the matter is that Cujo never took any of the teams he played on to the cup. Beezer did (but lost).

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05-16-2006, 01:15 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Kärppä32
I should have read the first post.

No problem.

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