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Caps/Canucks Trade Prposal/Thoughts

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Old
10-26-2003, 07:26 PM
  #1
Mizral
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Caps/Canucks Trade Prposal/Thoughts

With some recent rumours seeing Caps star defensemen, Sergei Gonchar, being moved for some youth - what chance do the Canucks have at aquiring him?

The Canucks could use a player on Gonchar's ilk. We do not have a 'true' PP QB on the point (Jovo is more of a finishing touch guy who sneaks in the back door, Sopel is more of a shooter, same with Salo), and there are a lot of rumours about the Canucks trying to get Bryan Berard, so it stands to reason that it's possible Burke sees this as an issue, too.

I'm not exactly sure what the Caps would expect in return for him ($3.5 million dollar contract, UFA in a couple years, caps needing to shed payroll badly), or what kind of player (veterans or youngsters) they would be looking to get back.

Anyways, I was thinking someone involving RJ Umberger, Bryan Allen, or picks/prospects. Any ideas, Caps fans?

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10-26-2003, 08:04 PM
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Umberger would probably have to be someone like Cooke instead.

 
Old
10-26-2003, 08:36 PM
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I understand that Gonachar's potential for being an UFA down the road might influence trade value, as well as his contract, but I think you guys are unrealistic if you really think you are going to get him for the likes of Bryan Allen or Umberger. Gonachar is a true number one d-man. Washington is not going to have any trouble getting somebody to ante up more than that.

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10-26-2003, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
I understand that Gonachar's potential for being an UFA down the road might influence trade value, as well as his contract, but I think you guys are unrealistic if you really think you are going to get him for the likes of Bryan Allen or Umberger. Gonachar is a true number one d-man. Washington is not going to have any trouble getting somebody to ante up more than that.
Perhaps, but look what Niinimaa brought back? Wasn't it Niinimaa and a 4th for Isbister and Torres? You can never tell in today's NHL.

Anyhow, part of the reason for the post was to ask what the Caps would be looking for in return.

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10-26-2003, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Perhaps, but look what Niinimaa brought back? Wasn't it Niinimaa and a 4th for Isbister and Torres? You can never tell in today's NHL.

Anyhow, part of the reason for the post was to ask what the Caps would be looking for in return.

Niinimaa and a 2nd. Torres was the key to the deal, being the 5th overall pick in his year, and Isbister still had trade value. I think you'd have to put together a better package than that, because Niinimaa is a notch or two below Gonchar (at least offensively).

I would think the Caps would want Brendan Morrison, at least.

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10-26-2003, 08:59 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euro
Open your eyes.

Gonchar = highest scoring defensman over the last 6 years = ELITE

Niinimaa = top 20 defenseman

You guys don't have enough assets to aquire Gonchar unless you gave up someone from the core. Jovo?

Don't hold your breath.
For the most part, I agree. The only issue here is that Gonchar's contract may decrease his trade value. But, I agree that Gonchar is elite and Niinimaa is a notch below.

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10-26-2003, 09:22 PM
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Exactly, Euro. Sergei Gonchar will fetch somewhere between what Mathieu Schneider and Rob Blake got. Frankly, there are teams out there that would be willing to sacrifice a lot more youth than Brian Burke to land Gonchar (Starts with 'T' and rhymes with 'Boronto')

Besides, Vancouver doesn't really need him.

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Old
10-26-2003, 09:48 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Anyways, I was thinking someone involving RJ Umberger, Bryan Allen, or picks/prospects. Any ideas, Caps fans?
The Nucks have zero, zilch, no chance what so ever landing a player of Gonchar's calibre. He's a player that requires top notch talent in return, you probably have to overpay to a fair degree as well and they certainly won't take on strictly quantity. Umberger, Allen is absolutely horrible for a potential return. It's Sergei Gonchar, a 29 year old defenseman that has been on the verge of Norris consideration for a few seasons now, you're talking about a top 5 defenseman and you're willing to trade the likes of Umberger (an unsigned prospect, 3rd line center), a player that's nearly writen off in Allen and picks (who cares about picks, even the Hawks have picks). Whoopee, I am thrilled..

That's actually pretty cool, I wonder if the Caps would consider this one too; Malhotra, Erskine, 3rd for Gonchar.. Don't like it? Edit your own..

I've been saying this before, the Canucks probably have the fewest valueble and tradeable assets in the NHL. Cooke, Umberger, Sopel, Allen, all 2nd if not 3rd tier talent that wouldn't get you much.

Here's one not made up from a biased Canuck POV:

Ed Jovonavski, Bryan Allen, 4th.
for
Sergei Gonchar, Danius Zubrus.

Unrealistic? hell yeah.. Gonchar to Vancouver is unreal in the first place, but you can bet your left nut either one of Ohlund or Jovo needs to jet to DC. Stop with these god awful typical Nuck proposals, they ain't much better then the former Leaf and Habs proposals we've seen around here.

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Old
10-26-2003, 10:26 PM
  #9
Blane Youngblood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
Ed Jovonavski, Bryan Allen, 4th.
for
Sergei Gonchar, Danius Zubrus.
M=G, one question, why would Vancouver trade Jovo for Gonchar? Jovo is younger, arguably just as good, and his contract status is much better. Seems like a pretty silly unbiased opinion to me. Also, before you try to argue that Gonchar is much better then Jovo please keep in mind that Gonchar finished forth in Norris voting while Jovo finished sixth (even though he missed 15 games). There doesn't seem to be much to choose between the two's actually abilities at the present time.

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Old
10-26-2003, 10:31 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
M=G, one question, why would Vancouver trade Jovo for Gonchar? Jovo is younger, arguably just as good, and his contract status is much better. Seems like a pretty silly unbiased opinion to me. Also, before you try to argue that Gonchar is much better then Jovo please keep in mind that Gonchar finished forth in Norris voting while Jovo finished sixth (even though he missed 15 games). There doesn't seem to be much to choose between the two's actually abilities at the present time.
Gonchar is better then Jovo, no question, but due to Jovo's age, still rising potential and salary, his trade and marketvalue is probably worth a bit more then Sergei Gonchar, though not by much at all. Which is why I added Zubrus, he's a superio asset towards Bryan Allen and it all kinda equals out.

Whether it makes sense, ask Mizral, it's his idea to swap for Gonchar in the first place.

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Old
10-26-2003, 10:39 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
Gonchar is better then Jovo, no question, but due to Jovo's age, still rising potential and salary, his trade and marketvalue is probably worth a bit more then Sergei Gonchar, though not by much at all. Which is why I added Zubrus, he's a superio asset towards Bryan Allen and it all kinda equals out.

Whether it makes sense, ask Mizral, it's his idea to swap for Gonchar in the first place.
I think Miz's point is that the Caps are rebuilding and looking to shed salary, what would it take the Canucks to get him. The problem is you responded with Jovo who makes more then Gonchar and thus doesn't make sense. What the Caps as an organization would probably be looking for would be prospects that are ready or close to stepping in, even though thats probably not what their fans want to hear. I honestly agree that the Canucks don't have the resources to get it done but the offer would be similar to Umberger, Allen, and our 1st this year or a package including Koltsov and Allen.

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10-27-2003, 06:12 AM
  #12
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Rumors are that the Caps would be asking for the moon.

Vancouver ... well, I think it would have to be picks, but good ones. Their stable of prospect assets may not make them a good fit.

From Dallas ... start with Miettinen. Otherwise, I think the Caps will get equal or better value from another team.

Things are grim in DC, and a lot of players currently saddling the Caps have minimal or negative trade value, but Gonchar is not one of them. The franchise's top asset to dangle, I think most would agree. The return would likely be substantial.

 
Old
10-27-2003, 10:13 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Niinimaa and a 2nd. Torres was the key to the deal, being the 5th overall pick in his year, and Isbister still had trade value. I think you'd have to put together a better package than that, because Niinimaa is a notch or two below Gonchar (at least offensively).

I would think the Caps would want Brendan Morrison, at least.
I have to disagree with Euro & M=G that the Canucks don't have quality assets to trade. Actually I think your suggestion of Morrison is viable as even though Morrison is our 1st line centre, the Canucks do have depth at the centre position. Morrison for Gonchar straight across may be fair based on salary differential, but Vancouver may have to add a lessor roster player too such as Ruutu or Lindgren.

In my opinion though, it may make more sense for both teams for the Canucks to add a roster defenseman like Jovo's partner Malik (from both teams point of view it would have to be a left side D & Ohlund would not be considered available from Vancouver's point of view) along with Morrison in order to balance each team's defensive core. Washington would have to add something extra with Gonchar though. Lang would be fine, but makes too much salary. Even Jagr if something could be done with his salary & length of contract. Zubrus would be a perfect fit for Vancouver, but adding him with Gonchar, IMO, would make the trade far too favourable for us here in Vancouver.

Contrary to what has been said in this thread, Umberger does have good second & even possibly 1st line potential & he will have far more trade value than has been suggested. He was a Hobie Baker finalist & is still considered a top prospect by the Canucks. Morrison, Malik & Umberger for Gonchar & Zubrus is pretty close to fair to both teams in my opinion. This would thus change Vancouver's roster to:

Naslund-H Sedin-Bertuzzi
D Sedin-Linden-Zubrus
Arvedson-Chubarov-Cooke
May-Lindgren-Ruutu/Keane

Ohlund-Jovanovski
Gonchar-Salo
Allen-Sopel

I wouldn't want to figure out Washington's likely roster.

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Old
10-27-2003, 10:15 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi-wayman
Naslund-H Sedin-Bertuzzi
D Sedin-Linden-Zubrus
Arvedson-Chubarov-Cooke
May-Lindgren-Ruutu/Keane

Ohlund-Jovanovski
Gonchar-Salo
Allen-Sopel
I think you lose a lot when you separate the sedins. They're much better as a unit than their sum as individuals. Personally I think our current roster would be quite a bit stronger than the above one.

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Old
10-27-2003, 10:18 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btmarshall
From Dallas ... start with Miettinen. Otherwise, I think the Caps will get equal or better value from another team.
The Stars could definitely need Gonchar, but they wouldn't be prepared to cough up the major assets in order to do so, much less to upgrade a position that's going well.

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10-27-2003, 10:25 AM
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[QUOTE=Hi-wayman]I have to disagree with Euro & M=G that the Canucks don't have quality assets to trade. Actually I think your suggestion of Morrison is viable as even though Morrison is our 1st line centre, the Canucks do have depth at the centre position. Morrison for Gonchar straight across may be fair based on salary differential, but Vancouver may have to add a lessor roster player too such as Ruutu or Lindgren.

In my opinion though, it may make more sense for both teams for the in Vancouver.

Contrary to what has been said in this thread, Umberger does have good second & even possibly 1st line potential & he will have far more trade value than has been suggested. He was a Hobie Baker finalist & is still considered a top prospect by the Canucks. Morrison, Malik & Umberger for Gonchar & Zubrus is pretty close to fair to both teams in my opinion. [QUOTE]


Umberger may or may not have first line potential, but he is certainly not consider a top 15 prospect. The fact they was a Hobey Baker Finalist is sort of irrelevant because that award is often awarded to players who have no real shot at an NHL career.

Morrison, Umberger, and Cooke for Gonchar straight up seems more fair to me.

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10-27-2003, 10:30 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Morrison, Umberger, and Cooke for Gonchar straight up seems more fair to me.
Who cares whether it's fair Darth, you really think the Caps would trade their best and one of only two NHL calibre defenseman they have in total, away, without getting one back?

Their offensie is fine the way it is, underachieving, but decent. They could use more depth on D, so trading Gonchar could make sense if he brings back 2 decent top 4 defenseman or something like that, but he will never be traded for just forwards or #6 defensemen.

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10-27-2003, 10:45 AM
  #18
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I think the situation the Caps are in is much more dire than some make it out to be. I certainly think Gonchar is being vastly overvalued here in terms of his current trade value, considering the team situation. I'm not saying the Canucks could get him for a little, but I'm saying the Caps are dying to dump salary, they can't find any takers for Jagr & Lang, Bondra isn't going to hurt them after he retires this year or the one following (post CBA). Gonchar has not helped their defensive situation, and while I'm sure some think he's incredible offensivly (he is), I am not so sure that GM's really value him all that much more than a Matthew Schneider at the moment.

This isn't a shot at Caps fans either. I simply think Gonchar could be had for less than is being suggested here - perhaps much less as the season goes on.

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10-27-2003, 11:12 AM
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I can't see it being less as the season goes on, if it did really decrease they'd just hold him until the trade deadline you can bet most contending teams would throw a fair bit of the farm at washington for him at playoff time, perhaps even recoup some of that salary they've had to pay him through not trading him sooner as well.

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10-27-2003, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Gonchar has not helped their defensive situation, and while I'm sure some think he's incredible offensivly (he is), I am not so sure that GM's really value him all that much more than a Matthew Schneider at the moment.

This isn't a shot at Caps fans either. I simply think Gonchar could be had for less than is being suggested here - perhaps much less as the season goes on.
1. Gonchar was voted 2nd team all NHL after last season. largely because of the increase in his defensive capability. Schneider is not considered a top 4 in the league defenseman. Ken Klee's +22 last year was a result of playing with Gonchar and not taking minus's for empty net goals against that Gonchar got. I think most GM's are aware that Gonchar's game has increased several levels in the last couple years and is a legit Norris Trophy Candidate. You have to also keep in mind that this year he is partnered with a career minor leaguer rather than a solid NHL veteran like Klee. So his offense even strenth is stunted by that and his +/- is effected by that as well.

2. I don't take it as a shot at Capitals fans. What I do find annoying is the swooping vulture nature of most of these trades. You can't afford your good players or you need to rebuild, and while they are good they don't have much trade value. Here's a bag of pucks...can we buy Kolzig or Gonchar for this?? i heard you were having a going out of business sale.

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10-27-2003, 11:29 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd

2. I don't take it as a shot at Capitals fans. What I do find annoying is the swooping vulture nature of most of these trades. You can't afford your good players or you need to rebuild, and while they are good they don't have much trade value. Here's a bag of pucks...can we buy Kolzig or Gonchar for this?? i heard you were having a going out of business sale.
the sad reality is that this is part of the business itself...

teams with stronger situations have less need to move salary or rebuild via dealing top players... teams that are struggling both financially, and in overall development usually have their assets devalued.

case in point: Kovalev... now the situations in Pittsburg and Washington are very different, but the point is that players values are often reflective of the situations their teams are in.

If the Caps are looking to cut payroll, then a player coming from the Caps will have their value adjusted as such... this depends on really how desperate they are to cut salary, and how well/poorly the team is playing.

not saying that Gonchar can be had for a bag of pucks (which is what the Rangers gave up for Kovalev), but the worse off Washington's sitaution is, the more pressure the team has to rebuild... and as a team, you just move down the list of players to move... they tried to move Jagr and Lang and found no takers... they moved Konowalchuk (and got younger and less salary in the process)... so what's left of the previous core is Gonchar, Kolzig and Bondra... the latter two don't have as much value as Gonchar does however.

I could see Gonchar moving for 2-3 pieces... I doubt that any of them will be of current star status, but all should be highly regarded prospects or young players.... guys like Jovo, Ohlund or Morrison don't make sense here, because such pieces don't address a rebuilding phase - which is the *only* reason to move Gonchar in the first place.

I don't see the Canucks having any interest in Gonchar anyways... why give up the assets that such a player would demand, when adding offense to our defense is one of the last things we need?? I would rather use such assets to add to our forward depth, especially at right wing.

But I could see Dallas interested... possibly LA... teams that need more help on the blueline than the Canucks.

and in such a deal, the Caps would probably want to move him to the Western conference, rather than the East (although it seems that Eastern teams aren't always too conscious of this)...

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10-27-2003, 11:36 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PF
I can't see it being less as the season goes on, if it did really decrease they'd just hold him until the trade deadline you can bet most contending teams would throw a fair bit of the farm at washington for him at playoff time, perhaps even recoup some of that salary they've had to pay him through not trading him sooner as well.

Precisely what I'm talking about. A Schneider-esque deadline deal.

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10-27-2003, 11:46 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by incawg
I think you lose a lot when you separate the sedins. They're much better as a unit than their sum as individuals. Personally I think our current roster would be quite a bit stronger than the above one.
I agree. Furthermore, Morrison is far more valuable to this team than Gonchar could be.

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10-27-2003, 11:55 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PF
I can't see it being less as the season goes on, if it did really decrease they'd just hold him until the trade deadline you can bet most contending teams would throw a fair bit of the farm at washington for him at playoff time, perhaps even recoup some of that salary they've had to pay him through not trading him sooner as well.

One important issue to keep in mind here is that teams who trade for players to bulk up for the playoffs are not going to hurt themselves at the same time. That is, they won't give up any vets who are important for the playoff run (the only exception I can think of is the AVs giving up Deadmarsh). Instead, a team dealing for playoff depth will want to move prospects, picks, and youngster who are not yet contributing.

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10-27-2003, 12:22 PM
  #25
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The Schneider and Blake deals were fine and dandy, but Gonchar won't be a UFA until after NEXT season. If there is a next season and UFA age stays the same, but even if it does change, you can't factor in presumed future uncertainties into a trade like this. You deal under the rules that are currently in effect.

And you're right, Washington does look to be dealing from weakness financially, but there is only 1 defenseman in the NHL capable of scoring 20+ goals 40+ assists and not being a defensive liability. Gonchar would get a significant return.

One deal I'd consider is:

Take Jagr with all his salary and baggage, we'll throw in Gonchar for free

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