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Cross & Torres...who knew?

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Old
11-05-2003, 06:44 AM
  #1
Marconius
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Cross & Torres...who knew?

So we're a few games into the season now and 2 things have occured to me:
1. Torres
Where di this guy come from? For a guy who seemed to be projected as a 4th line energy player or a third liner at best, he's burying a lot of his chances. Someone mentioned in the Habs/Oilers thread that hes got more points then in 30-odd games with the Islanders. It seems to me that he's provided a good argument for secondline ice time. It doesn't seem to be anything specific with him either. He doesn't have Hemsky's moves or Dvo's speed. He doesn't seem to have a rocket of a shot or a blistering wrister or anything, but somehow hes always in the right place to shovel home those goals. Do you think Torres is playing above himelf right now and will cool off? Or do you think hes showing us exactly what hes going to bring all season long?

2. Cross
When Cross got signed the overwhelming sentiment was "Big mistake, he's slow and will get destroyed with speed" Well so far all I have seen is a defencman who knows his limitations and has developed survival strategies. He seems to play the angles really well and use his reach. He seemed to chip in a fair amount of offense last season once we acquired him, but no seemed to notice. This year hes doing the same thing. For a guy who has almost zero offensive reputation hes got 5 points. I think a lot of us here need ot take a good long look at the criticism we've heaped on Cross and start evaluating him by what hes actually done...

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11-05-2003, 06:52 AM
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add ethan moreau to your list as well.

As for Torres, oiler mngt were very high on him since he was draft elligable. They gave up an awful lot to get him so there must be something they like. I am ok with him even if he doesn't score a lot because his physical play is worth the price of admission.

Corry Cross may be the smartest oiler dman. There were many discussions about him on fanhome two years ago. Some thought he was the most valuable leaf dman, others thought he should be playing in the echl. I wouldn't want 6 of him but I am pretty happy having one of him.

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11-05-2003, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marconius
So we're a few games into the season now and 2 things have occured to me:
1. Torres
Where di this guy come from? For a guy who seemed to be projected as a 4th line energy player or a third liner at best, he's burying a lot of his chances. Someone mentioned in the Habs/Oilers thread that hes got more points then in 30-odd games with the Islanders. It seems to me that he's provided a good argument for secondline ice time. It doesn't seem to be anything specific with him either. He doesn't have Hemsky's moves or Dvo's speed. He doesn't seem to have a rocket of a shot or a blistering wrister or anything, but somehow hes always in the right place to shovel home those goals. Do you think Torres is playing above himelf right now and will cool off? Or do you think hes showing us exactly what hes going to bring all season long?
Torres is doing the same things he did in junior. He never scored the high-lite real, very flashy goals... he scored a lot on rebounds, tap ins... more or less what get called garbage goals. I didn't see him in long Island at all, but I would venture a guess that he needed to catch up to the speed of the game... more mentally than physically. In the NHL, if you go to the net, you don't have 4 or 5 seconds like you do in junior, you have maybe to, so you have to be a little more careful when you pick your spots. That being said, I think Torres will put in 20 goals, and maybe 20 assists this season. A slight cool off from his current pace, but still a very solid season, especially in his first full year.

Quote:
2. Cross
When Cross got signed the overwhelming sentiment was "Big mistake, he's slow and will get destroyed with speed" Well so far all I have seen is a defencman who knows his limitations and has developed survival strategies. He seems to play the angles really well and use his reach. He seemed to chip in a fair amount of offense last season once we acquired him, but no seemed to notice. This year hes doing the same thing. For a guy who has almost zero offensive reputation hes got 5 points. I think a lot of us here need ot take a good long look at the criticism we've heaped on Cross and start evaluating him by what hes actually done...
The guy got wrongfully blamed in Toronto for a lot of the stuff that went on... they didn't recognize his limits and pair him with someone who could hide his limits. They always had him paired with someone that had the same footspeed as he did (well similar anyways), and he spent more time on his pinches going after the puck than he did the man... Now, anytime he pinches he always makes sure he gets the man, because he knows that Brewer will be there for the loose puck, or for the one on one.

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11-05-2003, 06:56 AM
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When Cross came over he had a bad rep from Toronto's fans, but I always felt he would be very beneficial to the Oilers when looking at his size and plus minus from previous seasons. Cross is nowhere near as flashy or skilled as Niinimaa, but if he continues his pace Niinimaa will be a distant memory.

Our top line has been horrible for about the last 5 games, but the reason this hasn't been brought into the light is because of the play of players like Cross and Torres.

The Oilers haven't had this much production from the Defence int he last few years. If Isbister ever manages to turn it on, and become a power forward the Oilers will be in great shape.

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11-05-2003, 06:58 AM
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no doubt, Cross has been much better than I expected, and I can't disagree with the sentiment that it's nice to have a veteran around, since EDM coule easily lose both Ferguson and Staois this summer, Smith a UFA the year after that (assuming no lockout). Still wish they'd have kept Pisa though, I liked what I saw from him.

As for Torres, I guess EDM was playing a hunch with him, that he'd find his offence sooner or later (5th overall pick in 2000, behind Dipietro, Heatley, Gaborik, and Klesla)

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11-05-2003, 07:04 AM
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I know the Isles have a habit of giving up their quality prospects , but it just seemed like they threw Torres into the Niinimaa trade as a spare part. I didn't get a chance to hear anything about Torres before he came over here, but I can't imagine that he was playing so badly that the Isles just shrugged their shoulders and tossed him into the deal.
People have joked that its becoming the Torres-Niinimaa trade, but it looks more and more like that may be the case. If Torres continues his play a Torres for Janne deal, straightup, would be looking good, never mind that we got the potential of Isbister included

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11-05-2003, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speeds
no doubt, Cross has been much better than I expected, and I can't disagree with the sentiment that it's nice to have a veteran around, since EDM coule easily lose both Ferguson and Staois this summer, Smith a UFA the year after that (assuming no lockout). Still wish they'd have kept Pisa though, I liked what I saw from him.
But a lot people seem to think that that a veteran precense is all Cross brings to the team. The end of last season and the beginning of this season seems to indicate that he can almost be counted on to deliver some points as well. Does anyone know his career high or if he was ever projected to bring an offensive game?

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11-05-2003, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marconius
But a lot people seem to think that that a veteran precense is all Cross brings to the team. The end of last season and the beginning of this season seems to indicate that he can almost be counted on to deliver some points as well. Does anyone know his career high or if he was ever projected to bring an offensive game?
He has a career high of 18 nhl points... he managed 39 with the golden bears one season, but to be honest I don't think he was even projected to make the NHL.

He gets the puck on net better than any of the Oiler defensemen, and I think that's why he is getting more points.

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11-05-2003, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
He has a career high of 18 nhl points... he managed 39 with the golden bears one season, but to be honest I don't think he was even projected to make the NHL.

He gets the puck on net better than any of the Oiler defensemen, and I think that's why he is getting more points.
I know we've disagreed in the past Dawgbone (Salo sucks! No he doesn't! :p ), but I think your deadon here. I never thought abnout it before, but he is very good at getting the puck on net low & hard. If only Brew & Semenov could learn from him...

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11-05-2003, 07:52 AM
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Well I was one of the anti-cross guys. I'm know he won't keep up this scoring clip, but I never expected him to be where he is. SO I have to give credit to him as he has played well. He's probably been our second best Dman.

As for Torres. He's scoring smart goals. He's showing he knows where to go to find open ice and where rebounds will show up. His hands aren't flashy, but they rarely miss when given something he should pot. I think this kid will be a VERY serious threat to score 20 goals this year (don't expect him to keep up this torrid pace). I'd be VERY VERY VERY suprised if he scores as many goals as Smyth and leads the team. EIther way, I'm pleased these two new Oilers are showing immediate divid-ends. They have all been instrumental in any early success we've had.

Also, I think our first line by the end of the road trip will be Torres-York-Dvorak if it keeps going the way it is. Dvorak has to be the most unluckey player in the NHL right now, but he'll break out, and break out big when he does.

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11-05-2003, 07:53 AM
  #11
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Who knew? - Kevin Lowe sure seemed to

It seems that our useless young GM may actually know a bit more about the game and players than many internet jocks

Credit where credit is due.

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11-05-2003, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaoil
Who knew? - Kevin Lowe sure seemed to

It seems that our useless young GM may actually know a bit more about the game and players than many internet jocks

Credit where credit is due.
Indeed, might be important to remember when the Comrie deal goes down

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11-05-2003, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thome_26
Well I was one of the anti-cross guys. I'm know he won't keep up this scoring clip, but I never expected him to be where he is. SO I have to give credit to him as he has played well. He's probably been our second best Dman.

As for Torres. He's scoring smart goals. He's showing he knows where to go to find open ice and where rebounds will show up. His hands aren't flashy, but they rarely miss when given something he should pot. I think this kid will be a VERY serious threat to score 20 goals this year (don't expect him to keep up this torrid pace). I'd be VERY VERY VERY suprised if he scores as many goals as Smyth and leads the team. EIther way, I'm pleased these two new Oilers are showing immediate divid-ends. They have all been instrumental in any early success we've had.

Also, I think our first line by the end of the road trip will be Torres-York-Dvorak if it keeps going the way it is. Dvorak has to be the most unluckey player in the NHL right now, but he'll break out, and break out big when he does.
That about sums it up for me regarding the both of them...Cross has done everything that was expected of him (6-7 Dman) and more (10 points in 20 games as an Oiler), while Torres has shown he's a guy that can play on any line and not be a millstone around its neck.

For someone with supposedly stone hands, Torres has shown a knack for burying a puck in the upper half of the net when he gets a chance. I've also noticed on at least 2 of his goals that he one timed the puck in straight away, he didn't stop the puck first and then shoot. To me that shows a guy whose hands maybe aren't as clumsy as we thought. Add to that his relentless forechecking, better than average footspeed and occasional surprising creativity (remember that cheeky little behind the back between his legs pass off the boards to Horcoff which set up BG for the first goal of the season?), and we may have someone who'll be a plus contributor to this team. Not a star necessarily, but someone the other team will hate to play against...and he just turned 22.

Suddenly giving up that 2nd round pick in the Niinimaa deal isn't quite so hard to swallow...

...actually, it still is.

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11-05-2003, 08:43 AM
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well, after Staios, Ferguson, Smith, Ulanov, Brown, and Butenschon, I guess I shouldn't be THAT surprised about Cross. For some reason the Oilers always get the most out of their defensemen (still waiting on Brewer :mad: ) Right now, Cross is exceeding even those expectations cause his scoring pace makes him look like Paul Coffey. Who would've known?

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11-05-2003, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger12
...
For someone with supposedly stone hands, Torres has shown a knack for burying a puck in the upper half of the net when he gets a chance. I've also noticed on at least 2 of his goals that he one timed the puck in straight away, he didn't stop the puck first and then shoot. To me that shows a guy whose hands maybe aren't as clumsy as we thought. Add to that his relentless forechecking, better than average footspeed and occasional surprising creativity (remember that cheeky little behind the back between his legs pass off the boards to Horcoff which set up BG for the first goal of the season?), and we may have someone who'll be a plus contributor to this team. Not a star necessarily, but someone the other team will hate to play against...and he just turned 22.
...
Well, to my eye anyways, Torres looks like an NHLer, and precious few of the other Oilers prospects do. I really think he IS a stone-hands guy though. No Oiler has had better opportunities to pot easy goals, hell I think I would have had about seven if I were in Rafi's skates. In an odd way he's like the new Marchant.

But you've got to credit the guy ... he ends up in good scoring position a lot, passes and rebounds seem to find their way to him. Might just be luck though, we're only 11 games in ... time will tell.

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11-05-2003, 09:11 AM
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In some ways Torres is reminding me of Pisani from last year, with some smart positional play and being in the right place to maximize the chance of getting a rebound or pass. And like Pisani from last year, Torres is burying most of his chances... Torres is obviously a more physical player than Pisani, but it just struck me about the similarity between them in their opportunisticalnessicity. Ahem.

And a thumbs-up to Cross, who showed his offensive abilities from last year weren't a fluke. I liked that quote earlier about not wanting SIX of him on my team, but ONE is just fine...

It'll be interesting to see how MacT uses Torres over the season...does his give that whole line some PP time eventually? I could see Torres being a decent PKer at some point, too, so he could end up with a lot more minutes-played by the end of the year if he's used in more situations than just 5-on-5.

And whoever else was right - Torres and his line have deflected or hidden the sub-par contributions from the FIRST line lately. This is what we need to avoid a long losing streak like the past two years - one or two lines playing well when others aren't.

Bart

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11-05-2003, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by alzardnp1
well, after Staios, Ferguson, Smith, Ulanov, Brown, and Butenschon, I guess I shouldn't be THAT surprised about Cross. For some reason the Oilers always get the most out of their defensemen (still waiting on Brewer :mad: ) Right now, Cross is exceeding even those expectations cause his scoring pace makes him look like Paul Coffey. Who would've known?
You are flattering Cross IMO. I don't hate the guy, he is a serviceable 5th or 6th guy. But before last night he had only been on the ice for ONE Oiler goal during even-strength play, and he'd been on the ice for a swack against.

Billy Moores just loves this dude though (was Cross on one of Billy's UofA teams or something???) because he gets a stupid amount of powerplay time, just ridiculous. And as a consequence he gets points (granted at a very low rate compared to almost every other PP guy in the league with his PP time). Still, you get that sort of PP time, you'll get points.

His offensive numbers look good in the newspaper ... but relative to ice-time (by type) he is a remarkably ineffective offensive player.

The Oilers need a forward on the point. Last year they scored the vast majority of their powerplay goals with a forward on the point (even factoring in SH goals against), in spite of the fact that they played more with two D on the point. This year they are +3 on the PP with a forward on the point, +4 with a forward on the point (granted 5 on 3 numbers skew it a bit). And this while they have played the vast majorityof PP time with 2 D back there. Inexplicably

I'm on a tangent now but ... it is asinine for the Oilers to be using two defensemen on the powerplay. The tide has changed, coaching staffs have become more sophisticated and analytical, and the majority of NHL goals on the powerplay are now scored with forwards on the point, and it increasing. This is done for a reason ... it works, the evidence is just overwhelming. The Oilers are behind the times (and have defensemen with limited offensive skills too boot), and someone should have to answer for this blatant managerial failure IMO. If the players are held accountable ... shouldn't management and coaching staffs be held accountable too?

On the other hand: Pat Burns also loves two D-men on the powerplay. And, of course, NJs powerplay wildly underachieves. And they have a $55 millionish budget and a swack of talented players ... so that's even worse. Its always nice to find someone even less competent to compare yourself to. Though in terms of the Oilers powerplay, this is now a damn short list.

My two cents.

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11-05-2003, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igor
Well, to my eye anyways, Torres looks like an NHLer, and precious few of the other Oilers prospects do. I really think he IS a stone-hands guy though. No Oiler has had better opportunities to pot easy goals, hell I think I would have had about seven if I were in Rafi's skates. In an odd way he's like the new Marchant.

But you've got to credit the guy ... he ends up in good scoring position a lot, passes and rebounds seem to find their way to him. Might just be luck though, we're only 11 games in ... time will tell.
I don't know about luck, he just seemes to be especially smart about where to be. He has also always put the puck where it needs to be to go in, showing some hands. If a rebound comes out and there's chaos in the lower half of the net he flicks it up. He's also threaded some seeing-eye shots through some bodies for a goal. Coulda been luck, but he seems to be doing it fairly conisstently so far

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11-05-2003, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igor
Billy Moores just loves this dude though (was Cross on one of Billy's UofA teams or something???) because he gets a stupid amount of powerplay time, just ridiculous. And as a consequence he gets points (granted at a very low rate compared to almost every other PP guy in the league with his PP time). Still, you get that sort of PP time, you'll get points.
.
I think the reason he gets so much pp time is because he seems to be one of the few Oilers who can get the puck on net (anti-Arnott syndrome, you might call it)

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11-05-2003, 09:23 AM
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And weren't people on here screaming last year about MacT putting York on the point on the PP?

It seems to me that the PP really comes down to the personnel on the ice, and how they can react to what the PKers are doing. Maybe a forward on the point gives better results, although I don't know of any stats to show the differences over the past year or two...

Bart

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11-05-2003, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igor
You are flattering Cross IMO. I don't hate the guy, he is a serviceable 5th or 6th guy. But before last night he had only been on the ice for ONE Oiler goal during even-strength play, and he'd been on the ice for a swack against.
A whole swack? It could just be me, but if you have been on the ice for 1 even strength goal, and at most 3 shorthanded goals (which I don't think he was), then I don't see how you could be on for a whole swack agaisnt and be a -2.

Quote:
Billy Moores just loves this dude though (was Cross on one of Billy's UofA teams or something???) because he gets a stupid amount of powerplay time, just ridiculous. And as a consequence he gets points (granted at a very low rate compared to almost every other PP guy in the league with his PP time). Still, you get that sort of PP time, you'll get points.
He is getting points at the same rate as Niinimaa ever did... I am not sure what you are getting at with this comment, but he is out-producing every Oiler defenceman point wise, and the pp has been working lately. I don't see how having Cross is a problem.

Quote:
His offensive numbers look good in the newspaper ... but relative to ice-time (by type) he is a remarkably ineffective offensive player.
Career wise, yes he is... but this year, comparitive to defensemen, you are way off. He is averaging 0.5 points per game, which is probably the benchmark for what an offensive (or 2 way) defenseman looks to get. It'll give him more points than Brewer, Staois, Smith, or anyone else has gotten in a season.

Quote:
The Oilers need a forward on the point. Last year they scored the vast majority of their powerplay goals with a forward on the point (even factoring in SH goals against), in spite of the fact that they played more with two D on the point. This year they are +3 on the PP with a forward on the point, +4 with a forward on the point (granted 5 on 3 numbers skew it a bit). And this while they have played the vast majorityof PP time with 2 D back there. Inexplicably

I'm on a tangent now but ... it is asinine for the Oilers to be using two defensemen on the powerplay. The tide has changed, coaching staffs have become more sophisticated and analytical, and the majority of NHL goals on the powerplay are now scored with forwards on the point, and it increasing. This is done for a reason ... it works, the evidence is just overwhelming. The Oilers are behind the times (and have defensemen with limited offensive skills too boot), and someone should have to answer for this blatant managerial failure IMO. If the players are held accountable ... shouldn't management and coaching staffs be held accountable too?
I am trying to figure out all the teams that consistantly use a forward back on the point. Not a lot of them do, thereby rendering your <i>and the majority of NHL goals on the powerplay are now scored with forwards on the point</i> comment essentially meaningless. The reason more teams don't use a forward back there is because it is easier to exploit. In limited uses it is effective, but if you continually go to it, it's effectiveness is reduced. Playing the point is a skill. Coralling a bouncing puck, holding the line, all of those things are what defensemen work on. You keep putting a forward out there, and it doesn't take much for a pk to start to adjust to that, and attack the pointman. I know whenever we saw a forward on the point, we would all out press him, especially when he was right at the line. Forwards don't have the defense mentality to get it deep if you get in trouble, and that is when you get in trouble.

Quote:
On the other hand: Pat Burns also loves two D-men on the powerplay. And, of course, NJs powerplay wildly underachieves. And they have a $55 millionish budget and a swack of talented players ... so that's even worse. Its always nice to find someone even less competent to compare yourself to. Though in terms of the Oilers powerplay, this is now a damn short list.

My two cents.
Lots of other teams who are quite efficient on the pp use 2 d-men as well including Detroit and Colorado...

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11-05-2003, 01:58 PM
  #22
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I've always said Cross is a decent d-man. His play hasn't really surprised me so far this year. He may have dogged a little in the pre-season, but so what?

Torres on the other hand surprises me. The guy looked like a smaller white version of Mike Grier in the pre-season, and now he's finding spots and finishing. It'd be really great for the team if he kept his play up, and he became a legit 2nd liner eventually. Let's see if he can do it all year.

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11-05-2003, 02:18 PM
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The oilers have always been very high on Raffi Torres even on draft day. They were extatic to get him and his efforts have brought him early success. As fro Cross, teams know what they are getting. He is a veteran and I don't think anybody thought it was a bad signing after the quality of play he gave the Oilers last year. He is a solid stay at home #4-5 d-man that has the ability to play in the defensive zone. Neither are surprising to me.

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11-05-2003, 03:16 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by dawgbone
A whole swack? It could just be me, but if you have been on the ice for 1 even strength goal, and at most 3 shorthanded goals (which I don't think he was), then I don't see how you could be on for a whole swack agaisnt and be a -2.
I'm not meaning to bash Cross, just puzzling at why you're loving him. He's an honest player who can give you 15 to 20 minutes most nights IMO.

He's been on the ice for 2 Oilers goals and 5 opposition goals during 5on5 play. And One Oiler goal during 4on4 play. Bottom line ... in terms of how well the team does on the ice ... only Brewer is worse so far this year, both in terms of offensive and defensive team results.

Quote:
He is getting points at the same rate as Niinimaa ever did... I am not sure what you are getting at with this comment, but he is out-producing every Oiler defenceman point wise, and the pp has been working lately. I don't see how having Cross is a problem.
Its not really Cross that is the problem. It is Moores. If Cross was in the right place on the powerplay (i.e. the players bench) two things would happen:

1. The Oilers powerplay would improve.
2. Cross' points would decrease.

I think that is a fair trade-off.

Quote:
Career wise, yes he is... but this year, comparitive to defensemen, you are way off. He is averaging 0.5 points per game, which is probably the benchmark for what an offensive (or 2 way) defenseman looks to get. It'll give him more points than Brewer, Staois, Smith, or anyone else has gotten in a season.
Purely because of the PP time though. And the productivity rate of the Oilers when Cross is on the ice is 26.1 thus far. Its early but that's terrible. (i.e. the Oilers outcore the opposition by a goal every 26.1 minutes when he's on the powerplay).

As you would expect ... Hemsky (7.0) and York (8.0) lead the Oilers in this. As would Comrie if he were playing.

Bergeron (14.1) and Staois (19.2) are the best of a bad lot of Oiler PP dmen. Though Brewer will pull his socks up eventually.



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I am trying to figure out all the teams that consistantly use a forward back on the point. Not a lot of them do, thereby rendering your <i>and the majority of NHL goals on the powerplay are now scored with forwards on the point</i> comment essentially meaningless.
No, you are wrong. What games have you been watching anyways? No offense, but this shouldn't be hitting you like a brick, it should have been obvious .

The majority of PP goals scored in the NHL are now scored with a forward on the point, but just a little over half. It would probably more if you counted the teams that use a big Dman in fromt of the net and a forward on the point.

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The reason more teams don't use a forward back there is because it is easier to exploit. In limited uses it is effective, but if you continually go to it, it's effectiveness is reduced. Playing the point is a skill. Coralling a bouncing puck, holding the line, all of those things are what defensemen work on. You keep putting a forward out there, and it doesn't take much for a pk to start to adjust to that, and attack the pointman. I know whenever we saw a forward on the point, we would all out press him, especially when he was right at the line. Forwards don't have the defense mentality to get it deep if you get in trouble, and that is when you get in trouble.
I would call that a 'nice theory', but I would be wrong. If a theory has no basis in fact and is proved wrong in actual events ... then it is a bad theory.

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Lots of other teams who are quite efficient on the pp use 2 d-men as well including Detroit and Colorado...
The legacy of Bowman in DET is still strong, so of course they use a forward on the point ... DET used a forward on the point 65% of the time last year. And, unlike the Oilers, they don't really have too, with the number of offensive Dmen available.

You're right on COL using two Dmen on the point last year though. (11%) That may in part explain why their powerplay underachieved, and why Hartley lost his job.

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11-05-2003, 04:30 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barto
And weren't people on here screaming last year about MacT putting York on the point on the PP?
Yup, they were. Not just here but on call-in radio as well. The Oilers powerplay was creating chances and scoring at a rate they hadn't seen in ages ... but they were giving up SH chances as well.

IMO, and in terms of overall results, it was a terrible decision to abandon York on the point. Though the Oilers did find some success later in the year with Marchant on the point ... they were just terrible (in terms of results) when they had two D-men on the PP last year.

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It seems to me that the PP really comes down to the personnel on the ice, and how they can react to what the PKers are doing. Maybe a forward on the point gives better results, although I don't know of any stats to show the differences over the past year or two...
There is plenty of data out there, time-consuming to gather through though (only because goalie ice-time breakdowns aren't consolidated by NHL.com ... so you have to do it yourself). I've done it before and posted before though, here I think, I'll look it up agains at some point.

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