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Who do you think are the top All Time players from Finalnd
They can come from any era. Goalies Forwards or defence.
They can be NHL'ers current or retired.
They can be retired WHA players.
They can come any euro elite league.
They could had played internationally with Finalnd in various hockey tournaments e.g. Olympics, World Championships, Spengler Cup, World Juniors, Canada Cup or World Cup.
Players choosen for the top 50 by you do not have to be in order.
Kurri and Selänne are pretty easy at one and two. I think Selänne is closer to Kurri than many people realize. Kurri mainly stays ahead by virtue of a longer career and being better defensively. I would argue that offensively Selänne had a higher peak than Kurri, not in raw numbers but relative to the rest of the league.
In any case, here's a quick and dirty list made by perusing jatkoaika.com's discussion on all-time national team players and nhlfinns.com's statistics:
D Kari Eloranta
F Matti Hagman
F Raimo Helminen
F Kari Jalonen
F Olli Jokinen
D Timo Jutila
F Sami Kapanen
D Jere Karalahti
F Matti Keinonen
F Veli-Pekka Ketola
G Miikka Kiprusoff
F Saku Koivu
F Jari Kurri
D Janne Laukkanen
F Jere Lehtinen
D Tapio Levo
D Jyrki Lumme
D Toni Lydman
D Pekka Marjamäki
F Lauri Mononen
G Jarmo Myllys
F Mikko Mäkelä
F Mika Nieminen
D Janne Niinimaa
D Petteri Nummelin
D Timo Nummelin
D Teppo Numminen
G Pasi Nurminen
F Lasse Oksanen
F Esa Peltonen
F Ville Peltonen
D Joni Pitkänen
D Pekka Rautakallio
D Reijo Ruotsalainen
F Christian Ruuttu
D Sami Salo
F Teemu Selänne
D Risto Siltanen
F Ilkka Sinisalo
F Petri Skriko
G Kari Takko
G Jukka Tammi
F Juhani Tamminen
F Esa Tikkanen
D Kimmo Timonen
G Jorma Valtonen
D Hannu Virta
D Ossi Väänänen
D Jarmo Wasama
G Urpo Ylönen
Some notable current players who didn't make the list now are Vesa Toskala, Ville Nieminen, Niklas Hagman, Jarkko Ruutu, Kari Lehtonen, Jussi Jokinen, Tuomo Ruutu, and Hannu Toivonen.
I hope someone more knowledgeable will point out the inevitable grievous omissions and laughable inclusions.
EDIT: I noticed I had 52 players there, counting Kurri and Selänne, so I removed Janne Ojanen and Antti Laaksonen who were questionable choices anyway.
EDIT2: Looking at the other lists, I realized I had totally forgotten Sami Salo so I swapped him in for Aki Berg. (Sorry, Aki!)
Last edited by Piggish: 05-18-2006 at 06:22 AM.
Reason: see note at the end of the message
Excuse my ignorence of the subject but shouldn't Sami Kapanen be higher than both the Ruutu brothers and Timonen? Since the list includes historical figures, it's safe to assume that past achievements are being taken into consideration and actually prioritzed above potential. Sami has played in two all-star games, and prior to his injury issues was a consistent twenty-goal scorer. He's accomplished quite a bit more than those previously mentioned IMO.
Only a top 40 because I excluded players from the "stone age", meaning players who were active before I got into hockey and started to keep track on players (and it's hard to compare players from times when hockey was so different anyway).
1 Jari Kurri
2 Teemu Selänne
3 Saku Koivu
4 Teppo Numminen
5 Jere Lehtinen
6 Esa Tikkanen
7 Miikka Kiprusoff
8 Raimo Helminen
9 Christian Ruuttu
10 Jyrki Lumme
11 Kimmo Timonen
12 Joni Pitkänen
13 Sami Kapanen
14 Tuomo Ruutu
15 Esa Keskinen
16 Hannu Virta
17 Kari Eloranta
18 Timo Jutila
19 Ville Peltonen
20 Janne Ojanen
21 Toni Lydman
22 Sami Salo
23 Mika Nieminen
24 Ville Nieminen
25 Kari Lehtonen
26 Juha Riihijärvi
27 Janne Laukkanen
28 Janne Niinimaa
29 Hannu Toivonen
30 Petteri Nummelin
31 Kari Takko
32 Antti Miettinen
33 Antero Niittymäki
34 Mikko Mäkelä
35 Niko Kapanen
36 Jere Karalahti
37 Ville Sirén
38 Niklas Hagman
39 Jarkko Ruutu
40 Aki Berg
Only a top 40 because I excluded players from the "stone age", meaning players who were active before I got into hockey and started to keep track on players (and it's hard to compare players from times when hockey was so different anyway).
1 Jari Kurri
2 Teemu Selänne
3 Saku Koivu
4 Teppo Numminen
5 Jere Lehtinen
6 Esa Tikkanen
7 Miikka Kiprusoff
8 Raimo Helminen
9 Christian Ruuttu
10 Jyrki Lumme
11 Kimmo Timonen
12 Joni Pitkänen
13 Sami Kapanen
14 Tuomo Ruutu
15 Esa Keskinen
16 Hannu Virta
17 Kari Eloranta
18 Timo Jutila
19 Ville Peltonen
20 Janne Ojanen
21 Toni Lydman
22 Sami Salo
23 Mika Nieminen
24 Ville Nieminen
25 Kari Lehtonen
26 Juha Riihijärvi
27 Janne Laukkanen
28 Janne Niinimaa
29 Hannu Toivonen
30 Petteri Nummelin
31 Kari Takko
32 Antti Miettinen
33 Antero Niittymäki
34 Mikko Mäkelä
35 Niko Kapanen
36 Jere Karalahti
37 Ville Sirén
38 Niklas Hagman
39 Jarkko Ruutu
40 Aki Berg
I assume you forgot Olli Jokinen since there's no way that let's say Pitkänen is ahead of Jokinen.
TOP-60All time finns! according to hifk88, stats and old stories.
01. Jari Kurri
02. Teemu Selänne
03. Saku Koivu
04. Reijo Ruotsalainen
05. Esa Tikkanen
06. Miikka Kiprusoff
07. Jere Lehtinen
08. Raimo Helminen
09. Teppo Numminen
10. Sami Kapanen
11. Ville Peltonen
12. Christian Ruuttu
13. Matti Hagman
14. Urpo Ylönen
15. Jyrki Lumme
16. Olli Jokinen *
17. Kimmo Timonen
18. Timo Jutila
19. Mikko Mäkelä
20. Risto Siltanen
21. Esa Peltonen
22. Lasse Oksanen
23. Timo Nummelin
24. Petri Skriko
25. Esa Keskinen
26. Arto Javanainen
27. Ilkka Sinisalo
28. Veli-Pekka Ketola
29. Pekka Rautakallio
30. Mika Nieminen
31. Matti Keinonen
32. Juhani Tamminen
33. Janne Ojanen
34. Lauri Mononen
35. Jarmo Myllys
36. Petteri Nummelin
37. Hannu Virta
38. Jorma Valtonen
39. Kalevi Numminen
40. Hannu Kamppuri
41. Aarne Honkavaara
42. Markus Mattson
43. Jarmo Wasama
44. Jorma Peltonen
45. Timo Susi
46. Kari Eloranta
47. Kari Jalonen
48. Pasi Nurminen
49. Kari Takko
50. Jukka Tammi
51. Stigg Wetzell
52. Janne Niinimaa
53. Antero Niittymäki *
54. Joni Pitkänen *
55. Sami Salo
56. Raimo Summanen
57. Janne Laukkanen
58. Markus Ketterer
59. Aki-Petteri Berg
60. Kari Lehtonen *
------------------------
- Jussi Jokinen *
- Tuomo Ruutu *
- Mikko Koivu *
- Hannu Toivonen *
------------------------
* rising soon
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edit: finnish ice hockey lions: (jääkiekko leijonat) http://www.tampere.fi/jaakiekkomuseo/pelaajat.htm
Ranking players is difficult. If I had to come up with a top ten, it'd look something like this:
1. Jari Kurri. Great offensive forward who also got Selke Award consideration. One of the two or three Finnish players who, it could be reasonably claimed, were at one point the best in the world at their respective positions.
2. Teemu Selänne. Though I believe Selänne to have been a better offensive player than Kurri at his peak (which was in the late '90s, not during his rookie season), he wasn't quite as defensively aware nor has he yet matched Kurri's overall offensive accomplishments in the NHL.
3. Esa Tikkanen. Being one of the best defensive forwards in the world is a very valuable skill. Tikkanen beats #4 by virtue of being better offensively and thusly a more versatile player.
4. Jere Lehtinen. If Lehtinen isn't in your all-time ranking of defensive forwards, he bloody well should be. He's good at scoring goals, too, but not the best set-up man.
5. Miikka Kiprusoff. Again, Finnish players who at any time were arguably the best in the world at their respective positions are very rare. Kiprusoff is one of these players and he has done it for two seasons now. If he keeps it up for another season or two, he'll be top three material.
6. Teppo Numminen. He's the easy winner among defensemen and it's not just because of his defensive skills. The guy can pass with the best Finnish offensive defensemen. His best points seasons in the are a match to what Timonen and Ruotsalainen have done.
7. Saku Koivu. Koivu has never really realized his potential outside of brief spurts for the national team. In 1996 he put up the best point rate by Finnish NHL player not named Kurri or Selänne, but sadly he never managed to build on that. Still, his iconic status and undeniable talents qualify him for this list.
8. Olli Jokinen. Jokinen's 2006 was the best offensive season by a Finnish player not named Kurri or Selänne - i.e. in addition to scoring points at a fair clip Jokinen also stayed healthy. After a pretty abysmal start to his NHL career, Jokinen has played three good seasons now and will be looking to move up the list if he can keep it up.
9. Sami Kapanen. Kapanen is maybe slightly underrated due to never really being in a starring role for the national team. He's a very versatile player who put together several fine offensive seasons in the early '00s.
10. Reijo Ruotsalainen. His two best offensive seasons are better than Timonen's. People who watched him play a lot tend to rank him highly.
Nice list, but I'd consider Olli Jokinen somewhere slightly above Aki Berg....
Haha, I just had to put Aki Berg there because he's such an admirable poster here on HF.
And yeah, OJ might actually be slightly better than our friend Aki, but just slightly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacklabel
I assume you forgot Olli Jokinen since there's no way that let's say Pitkänen is ahead of Jokinen.
Shame on me, of course I forgot him. I might be overrating the active players a bit, but I'm tempted to put Olli Jokinen just ahead of Esa Tikkanen as the 6th player (but clearly behind Jere Lehtinen of course).
I'll do something bit different, top 10 guys who didn't quit turned out as I thought they would when they were eighteen.
1. Jere Lehtinen
My projection: Average all around, basically Saku Koivu's little helper.
In reality: Great all around, arguably better than Koivu.
2. Janne Niinimaa
My projection: He's big, he's strong, he can make plays, excellent puck handler, fine skater... what more do you want?
In reality: Hockey brain would be nice. Had couple fine seasons with Flyers and Oilers, 95 WC winner, but still nowhere near as good as I thought.
3. Kimmo Timonen
My projection: Small, not that skilled, pretty good skater. No NHL future.
In reality: Best Finnish dman of his generation.
4. Sami Salo
My projection: Can't skate, can't pass, has no clue. Fringe NHL player at best.
In reality: Second best Finnish dman of his generation.
5. Markus Seikola
My projection: Incredibly mature for his age, solid all around. Should become a good NHL defenceman and national team regular.
In reality: Stopped developing at eighteen.
6. Mika Noronen
My projection: All the talent in the world, will own the national team starting position.
In reality: Has yet to secure a NHL backup position.
7. Niko Kapanen
My projection: Can't score, not that fast... a useless midget.
In reality: An extremely useful utility player in any level.
8. Eero Somervuori
My projection: Size is bit of a concern, but still an elite scorer.
In reality: Still small and not that great a scorer either.
9. Teemu Riihijärvi
My projection: OK, he got picked bit high, but still he is huge, tough and can skate.
In reality: Goalposts have better balance. Border line fourth liner in SM-Liiga.
10. Juha Lind
My projection: Fine two-way guy with scoring ability, should become an NHL second liner.
In reality: Good Euro player, but did almost nothing in NHL.
I'll do something bit different, top 10 guys who didn't quit turned out as I thought they would when they were eighteen.
1. Jere Lehtinen
My projection: Average all around, basically Saku Koivu's little helper.
In reality: Great all around, arguably better than Koivu.
2. Janne Niinimaa
My projection: He's big, he's strong, he can make plays, excellent puck handler, fine skater... what more do you want?
In reality: Hockey brain would be nice. Had couple fine seasons with Flyers and Oilers, 95 WC winner, but still nowhere near as good as I thought.
3. Kimmo Timonen
My projection: Small, not that skilled, pretty good skater. No NHL future.
In reality: Best Finnish dman of his generation.
4. Sami Salo
My projection: Can't skate, can't pass, has no clue. Fringe NHL player at best.
In reality: Second best Finnish dman of his generation.
5. Markus Seikola
My projection: Incredibly mature for his age, solid all around. Should become a good NHL defenceman and national team regular.
In reality: Stopped developing at eighteen.
6. Mika Noronen
My projection: All the talent in the world, will own the national team starting position.
In reality: Has yet to secure a NHL backup position.
7. Niko Kapanen
My projection: Can't score, not that fast... a useless midget.
In reality: An extremely useful utility player in any level.
8. Eero Somervuori
My projection: Size is bit of a concern, but still an elite scorer.
In reality: Still small and not that great a scorer either.
9. Teemu Riihijärvi
My projection: OK, he got picked bit high, but still he is huge, tough and can skate.
In reality: Goalposts have better balance. Border line fourth liner in SM-Liiga.
10. Juha Lind
My projection: Fine two-way guy with scoring ability, should become an NHL second liner.
In reality: Good Euro player, but did almost nothing in NHL.
Karalahti better than Kiprusoff, Lehtinen, Lehtonen?
Maybe he's done more in the Finnish League than I'm familiar with, but this seems like a very strange idea.
Which Lehtonen are we talking about? Pertti the defenseman or Kari the goalie?
Although to be honest, I would personally take Karalahti ahead of both Lehtonen's. He was arguably the most gifted Finnish defenseman of his generation (I don't necessarily agree with that statement, but still) and while his NHL career was cut short before reaching that potential, I'm not so sure if Kari Lehtonen's is that much better yet. Plus in international tournaments Karalahti has been one of Finland's most productive defensemen of all time and is a 2-time World Championships All Star.
Pertti Lehtonen on the other hand had a far greater (or should I say longer) SM-liiga career than either of the other two, but failed to match them beyond that level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic Youth
Excuse my ignorence of the subject but shouldn't Sami Kapanen be higher than both the Ruutu brothers and Timonen? Since the list includes historical figures, it's safe to assume that past achievements are being taken into consideration and actually prioritzed above potential. Sami has played in two all-star games, and prior to his injury issues was a consistent twenty-goal scorer. He's accomplished quite a bit more than those previously mentioned IMO.
Higher than the Ruutu brothers? Absolutely. I agree that past achievements should be preferred over potential here, in which case Kapanen is superior to all three Ruutu brothers - combined!
But higher than Timonen? That makes an interesting debate. Both players have had an outstanding NHL career and been selected to the All-Star Game twice. Both players can and have been used both on the power play and on the penalty kill. Kapanen was 26th among forwards in scoring in his career season, while Timonen was 14th among defensemen in 2001-02, 18th in 2002-03, 12th in 2003-04 and 12th again in 2005-06. Timonen seems to have a small and yet clear edge in stats, but Kapanen's versatility and superior playoff career (although Kapanen has certainly had his weak post-season moments as well) just about evens that out IMO.
On international ice, however, I do think that Timonen has the edge. Kapanen was named the best forward of the 2001 World Championships - an award he thoroughly deserved - but other than that he's never quite managed to meet the expectations in the national team. Timonen hasn't always delivered, either, but he still is the 2nd leading Finnish defenseman of all time in international tournaments (actually has more points than Kapanen), he was named to the 1st All Star Team in both the 2004 World Cup and the 2006 Olympics and he's also had two outstanding World Championships (albeit not as outstanding as Kapanen's in 2001). Therefore, I think Timonen should be ranked higher.
I might be overrating the active players a bit, but I'm tempted to put Olli Jokinen just ahead of Esa Tikkanen as the 6th player (but clearly behind Jere Lehtinen of course).
