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Van-Pit Proposal

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Old
11-03-2003, 09:59 PM
  #1
Doghouse
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Van-Pit Proposal

Pens get:
F RJ Umberger

Nucks get:
F Milan Kraft
D David Koci

Well???

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Old
11-03-2003, 10:08 PM
  #2
Jacob
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I'll bet the Manitoba Moose would approve of it.

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Old
11-03-2003, 10:11 PM
  #3
KOMO_ROCKS
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Fair deal....definately possible

I think Milan Kraft needs a change of scenary....Pittsburgh is not working out too well for him

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11-03-2003, 10:15 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacobv2
I'll bet the Manitoba Moose would approve of it.
I think Vancouver would take pretty much any deal where they get anything in return.

Come the trade deadline, and no movement is made, they risk losing him for nothing (Umberger will be a UFA).

So, if they can get Kraft, who in everybody's opinion could use a change of scenary, and a 6'6", 210lb. stay at home d-man both under the ages of 23, they'd take it.

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Old
11-03-2003, 10:16 PM
  #5
MVP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOMO_ROCKS
Fair deal....definately possible

I think Milan Kraft needs a change of scenary....Pittsburgh is not working out too well for him

Canucks cannot do it, because in case of Milan Kraft, he has to clear wavier in order to goto the Moose.

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Old
11-03-2003, 10:24 PM
  #6
Big McLargehuge
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From the Pens standpoint I'm good with it.

Kraft has loads of potential and needs a change of scenary badly, and Koci is a big stay-at-home defenseman that will hit anything that moves. In return we get a former first rounder and hometown boy who's fallen out of favor in the 'Nucks organization.

I'd say it's fair.

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Old
11-03-2003, 10:27 PM
  #7
KOMO_ROCKS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVP
Canucks cannot do it, because in case of Milan Kraft, he has to clear wavier in order to goto the Moose.
why is that? Because he is not on the nhl roster of the Penguins right now but instead with Therrien in the affiliate of the Pens?

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11-03-2003, 10:31 PM
  #8
Big McLargehuge
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Kraft is still on the Penguins roster only because he'd have to clear waivers. Patrick put him on the trade block because he doesn't want to lose him for nothing.

He's played in only 2 games so far this year...probably will play tommorow @ Toronto though with Lemieux out.

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11-03-2003, 11:31 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phantompenguin
Kraft is still on the Penguins roster only because he'd have to clear waivers. Patrick put him on the trade block because he doesn't want to lose him for nothing.

He's played in only 2 games so far this year...probably will play tommorow @ Toronto though with Lemieux out.
can he play on the wings ? (RW)

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Old
11-03-2003, 11:37 PM
  #10
Big McLargehuge
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He's best at center, but he can play RW.

No go at LW though.

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Old
11-04-2003, 12:02 AM
  #11
Blane Youngblood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doghouse
I think Vancouver would take pretty much any deal where they get anything in return.

Come the trade deadline, and no movement is made, they risk losing him for nothing (Umberger will be a UFA).
The worst that Vancouver could do for Umberger is a 2nd rounder (they get one if he leaves). Knowing that, I like the trade except for the fact that the Canucks wouldn't be able to send Kraft down to the minors without him clearing wavers and there's not room for him on the big club, so he has next to no value to Vancouver. If Kraft cleared waivers I'd say do the deal. Another possible option for Umberger is Svidki who has already cleared. I honestly think that in the end the Canucks will raiser their offer the 150-200k and just sign Umberger.

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Old
11-04-2003, 12:05 AM
  #12
Big McLargehuge
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Well Kraft is on the block and Beech isn't...

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Old
11-04-2003, 12:26 AM
  #13
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It means he needs a change of scenery.

Like Naslund did

:p

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Old
11-04-2003, 01:19 AM
  #14
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There is no room for Kraft with the big club and from what I understand he would have to clear waivers to be sent down too the minors...
That right there makes this deal a no go. Once Lindgren comes back from injury reserve.. the Canucks will have the problem of having to many players on the roster.. someone will have to be traded or sent down too the minors...

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11-04-2003, 05:05 AM
  #15
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I agree with the nuk fans here on this... Kraft having to clear waivers is too big a deterent... if we make this deal, we could get a depth dman (who's still low on our overall depth chart) for a 2nd round pick... Kraft could easily be lost on waivers, and the worst that Umberger can get us is a 2nd rounder.

with the way the team is playing there is absolutely no rush to move Umberger... better to keep him now and either use him as an asset at the deadline, or take our chances and try and sign him, or take the 2nd round pick instead... by the deadline we'll have a better idea of what we'll need for the playoffs - depending on how the team is playing, and the injury situation with the team.

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Old
11-04-2003, 06:09 AM
  #16
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I'd rather see Umberger go for nothing than to pay Kraft's contract. A nothing player making that money? No thanks.

Again, I don't see why people think we 'need' to trade Umberger. Is there any reason to think we cannot resign Umberger later on in the season?

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Old
11-04-2003, 06:26 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Again, I don't see why people think we 'need' to trade Umberger. Is there any reason to think we cannot resign Umberger later on in the season?
I'd say there's a stronger possibility that we won't be able to sign him, then us signing him this year.

I guess I'd have more confidence in it if there was more progress made between the two sides... but as it is, the Canucks brass are downplaying his upside and are showing disappointment in his current game, while holding strong on a $150K difference in salary (which is next to nothing at the minor league level anyways).... while Umberger is not even playing hockey - anywhere... he could have gone back to the NCAA this year, but feels that his NCAA career is over, as he's got nothing more to learn there... instead he's playing chicken with the team, sitting out and threatening to be a UFA after this year (why he won't play in Europe).

Having said that, I don't think it's really a reason to worry... if we sign him, his value is probaby that of a mid to late 1st rounder, although he still doesn't make our team this year, and may not make it next year (especially with the emergence of King)... without signing him, we get a mid 2nd rounder as compensation - the overall risk of losing 20-30 spots in the draft (in terms of value) for losing him isn't that big a deal to really worry about it IMO.

IMO we should use him as our movable asset come deadline time... much like the Stars used their former late 1st round pick to get Barnes, or Ottawa using Gleason to get Smolinski... if we can get what we feel is the "final piece" at that time, that's when you move an asset like Umberger - not 1 month into a new season when the team is firing on all cylinders.

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Old
11-04-2003, 06:45 AM
  #18
Reign Nateo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doghouse
I think Vancouver would take pretty much any deal where they get anything in return.

Come the trade deadline, and no movement is made, they risk losing him for nothing (Umberger will be a UFA).

So, if they can get Kraft, who in everybody's opinion could use a change of scenary, and a 6'6", 210lb. stay at home d-man both under the ages of 23, they'd take it.
Again, Umberger's value is a 2nd round pick. If he goes unsigned, that's the compensation the Canucks will receive, so they are not forced to deal him, either he signs, they find a trade that suits their needs, or they take the 2nd round pick.

My feeling is that he will sign sooner rather than later, his agent should be telling him about the development time he is throwing away.

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Old
11-04-2003, 07:04 AM
  #19
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I wish we'd just waive Kraft so we can stop hearing about it.

 
Old
11-04-2003, 07:09 AM
  #20
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I guess that both the Moose and Penguins need a shakeup. But can Pittsburgh really afford to deal off Kraft, a marketable piece, for an unsigned rookie?

I would like to see RJ play in the NHL, and hometown boys are always a good human interest story, but I can't see it unless it was a sign and trade.

Then again, it is in the Pen's best interest to suck for a couple more years. Adding competent players for prospects is actually detrimental to them right now. They need to amass a quality group and then let the team gel. That's what the good teams do, suffering through the bad years and then dominating as the kids hit their mid twenties.

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11-04-2003, 07:43 AM
  #21
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I would prefer the second round compensation pick for losing Umberger than Milan Kraft. The guy is a poor skater and that is certainly not what we need in Vancouver. Most of the guys on our team have good speed and size which makes the forecheck so effective. Beech I would do....but then we would have to trade Chubarov.....it just starts getting messy from there. If Beech did not have to clear waivers he would be the guy. If Chubarov was injured, he would be the guy....but right now I am at a loss for how to tweak the lineup other than picking up a high second round pick for Umberger (higher than the compensation pick).

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Old
11-04-2003, 09:01 AM
  #22
Hi-wayman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phantompenguin
It means he needs a change of scenery.

Like Naslund did

:p
If Naslund can't crack the Pens lineup, what does that say for HIS trade value.

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Old
11-04-2003, 10:16 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phantompenguin
It means he needs a change of scenery.

Like Naslund did

:p

Naslund DID NOT need a change of scenery.
It was just a plain DUMB move by our GM.
Plain dumb.
The second I heard it, I knew we got screwed.

Kraft could become something good.
I don't think he's had a fair chance with the Pens.

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Old
11-04-2003, 11:51 AM
  #24
Doghouse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo
Again, Umberger's value is a 2nd round pick. If he goes unsigned, that's the compensation the Canucks will receive, so they are not forced to deal him, either he signs, they find a trade that suits their needs, or they take the 2nd round pick.
That in itself is nothing. In other words, you're not going to trade a first round pick in order to get a second round pick?

If they can make a trade, they will. But it's hard to determine his trade value, considering he's never played one game of pro hockey.

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Old
11-04-2003, 12:02 PM
  #25
NFITO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doghouse
That in itself is nothing. In other words, you're not going to trade a first round pick in order to get a second round pick?

If they can make a trade, they will. But it's hard to determine his trade value, considering he's never played one game of pro hockey.
no harder than it is to determine the trade value of any player that hasn't played a game in the NHL yet... and many such assets get moved all the time.

Is the value of a 2004 1st round pick the same as a 2003 1st? or a 2001 1st (the year that Umberger went)??? does his value change because he can be a UFA - even though he still nets the team that holds his rights a mid 2nd round pick?

has his value increased or decreased since he was drafted?? remember he did improve his totals every year in college, and garnered Hobey votes last season. (also note that only Kovalchuk and Spezza have made more of an impact - at least on any substantial scale - so far in that draft year, so it's still very year to write off any prospect from that year).

I'd guess that his value has pretty much stayed the same since his draft year, if not fallen slightly - but not by much.... so I'd say he's worth a mid to late 1st round pick at this stage, not much more than the mid 2nd round pick they get in automatic compensation.

so unless you get a deal where you're getting more than a mid 2nd round pick (16th overall in the 2nd round), then I don't see the point at all of moving him.

I also don't see any point in moving him at this stage... I wouldn't deal him until at least the new year - giving the team more time to 1) negotiate with him, and 2) figure out what holes they really have in the lineup where they can get something they could use for him.

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