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Greatest Defenceman of All Time #7

View Poll Results: Who is the greatest defencemen of all time? #7
Red Kelly 18 27.69%
Chris Chelios 2 3.08%
Paul Coffey 12 18.46%
Nick Lidstrom 16 24.62%
Scott Stevens 4 6.15%
Slava Fetisov 3 4.62%
Brad Park 5 7.69%
Pierre Pilote 3 4.62%
Tim Horton 2 3.08%
King Clancy 0 0%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-19-2006, 03:25 PM
  #26
God Bless Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe
He was also on the best offensive team of all-time inflating his numbers. If Bourque had been on that team that season, I have no doubt he would have been in the same ballpark, and also provided much better defense. Put Coffey on the Habs and he likely doesn't get much more than the 85 pts Robinson did on the 86 Habs team. Howe was +80 that season and was IMO robbed of the Norris because he didn't get to play pond hockey like Coffey did.
I wouldn't go that far. None of those defencemen had Coffey's speed, flair or creativity. Did Coffey benefit from the team he played on? Yes. But he probably scored 100 points a couple times in his career no matter where he played. He was that quick, that imaginative, and saw the ice that well. I never saw Howe or Bourque perform the end-to-end magic that Coffey could. (Robinson did, and that's part of what made him so great. Larry Robinson is one of the finest examples of size and skill the game has ever seen, regardless of position).

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Old
05-19-2006, 03:43 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe
He was also the best offensive team of all-time inflating his numbers. If Bourque had been on that team that season, I have no doubt he would have been in the same ballpark, and also provided much better defense.
Drool........

I voted Coffey. It was an absolute sight of beauty the way Coffey rushed up the ice, I've never seen anything like it. He'd pick the puck up behind the net and by four strides was in full flight. A slight shoulder drop one way or a shift the other way and three more strides he's already gained the blueline. He was the best skater and had the most effortless stride I've ever seen.

Paul Coffey in his prime could control a game more than Bourque, Robinson or Potvin did and after Gretzky, was the most dangerous guy on the ice as was Bob Johnson's opinion anyways. He also controlled the powerplay and wasn't as weak defensively as many make him out to be mostly because he could skate back and recover more times than not.

I don't know if Bourque would have increased his production playing on that team or not, other than maybe the powerplay (what a sight that would've been) A good percentage of Coffey's goals came off the rush or as the fourth guy entering the zone because he had the speed to do so. Bourque didn't have Coffey's speed or rushing ability.

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Old
05-19-2006, 04:18 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
I can't think of a better reason to leave a defenseman off the top-10 defensemen of all time lists. Can you?
I didn't say i agree with that statement. And i don't. I think Coffey was solid defensively. The fact was, he just didn't have to be.

Anyway, how about, he wasn't a good player. i think that would be the best reason to leave someone off the list. If you are going to discount Coffey's offensive ability because he's a defenseman, then he should have been included in the forward voting or a special category for players who don't match a defined mold, as set forth by hockey fanatics on hfboards...give me a break. He's deserving.

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Old
05-19-2006, 04:35 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kovy1335
I didn't say i agree with that statement. And i don't. I think Coffey was solid defensively. The fact was, he just didn't have to be.

Anyway, how about, he wasn't a good player. i think that would be the best reason to leave someone off the list. If you are going to discount Coffey's offensive ability because he's a defenseman, then he should have been included in the forward voting or a special category for players who don't match a defined mold, as set forth by hockey fanatics on hfboards...give me a break. He's deserving.
Damn straight Coffey was a great player. Just that if there are great defensemen that can do it all, but at the heart of it all play rock solid defense, I'd say they deserve it more.

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Old
05-19-2006, 05:30 PM
  #30
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Red Kelly should win this one. Add Earl Seibert, though Dit Clapper would be a great choice too.

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05-19-2006, 05:44 PM
  #31
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I'm shocked that Rod Langway isn't even nominated. Other than Orr, he was the most dominating dman I've had the pleasure of watching.

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Old
05-19-2006, 06:06 PM
  #32
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Getting tougher now. I vote for Pilote this time and add Clapper.

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Old
05-19-2006, 06:17 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
I wouldn't go that far. None of those defencemen had Coffey's speed, flair or creativity. Did Coffey benefit from the team he played on? Yes. But he probably scored 100 points a couple times in his career no matter where he played. He was that quick, that imaginative, and saw the ice that well. I never saw Howe or Bourque perform the end-to-end magic that Coffey could. (Robinson did, and that's part of what made him so great. Larry Robinson is one of the finest examples of size and skill the game has ever seen, regardless of position).
I don't think he would have gotten 100 with the 80's Habs given that they were always a defense first team under Lemaire and Burns. He would likely have done it with the 80's Flyers.

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Old
05-19-2006, 06:23 PM
  #34
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Voted for Red Kelly for the second time.

Add Al Macinnis.

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Old
05-20-2006, 03:20 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
Definitely Leonard "Red" Kelly. Won the first Norris Trophy. Would have likely won one or two more had the Norris been around in the early stages of his career. An all-star on the blue line for eight straight years, including five straight first team selections. Eight Stanley Cups.

Add Earl Seibert. 10 straight selections to the NHL all-star team.
Good points by all on Kelly.

One of the things I think we need to look at is how players were regarded within the context of their time, and Kelly actually breaks out pretty well. Kelly and Harvey both broke in during the 1947-48 season and based on the awards voting over the first 10 years of their careers Harvey was not considered his equal. Lets take a look:

1947-48

CALDER: (86)
1. Jim McFadden, Det C 50
2. Pete Babando, Bos LW 22
3. Red Kelly, Det D/C 14

Neither placed on the end of year All-Star teams if the Norris was given that year, it would have been Quackenbush

1948-49 Neither placed in end of the season awards Porjected Norris: Quackenbush again.

1949-50

Kelly made the 2nd team, placed 3rd in the Lady Byng Projected Norris: Gus Mortson

LADY BYNG: (18-18-11)
1. Edgar Laprade, NYR C 48 (12-6-0)
2. Red Kelly, Det D 21 (3-5-2)
3. Paul Ronty, Bos C 14 (1-4-3)

1950-51 Kelly would have won the Projected Norris, placed 3rd in the MVP and won the Lady Byng

HART: (18-18-18)
1. Milt Schmidt, Bos C 40 (10-4-2)
2. Maurice Richard, Mtl LW 28 (5-4-5)
T3. Red Kelly, Det D 11 (1-2-4)
T3. Gordie Howe, Det RW 11 (0-5-1)
5. Ted Kennedy, Tor C 8 (0-2-4)
6. Bert Olmstead, Mtl LW 6 (2-0-0)
7. Bill Quackenbush, Bos D 2 (0-1-0)
T8. Al Rollins, Tor G 1 (0-0-1)
T8. Roy Conacher, Chi LW 1 (0-0-1)

LADY BYNG: (17-13-12)
1. Red Kelly, Det D 31 (6-5-3)
2. Woody Dumart, Bos LW 22 (4-2-6)
3. Bill Quackenbush, Bos D 17 (3-2-2)
4. Buddy O’Connor, NYR C 11 (2-2-1)
5. Roy Conacher, Chi LW 10 (2-2-0)

1951-52 Harvey breaks through with as 1st team berth, Kelly gets the most 1st teams votes and places 2nd for the Byng, Porjected Norris: Kelly

LADY BYNG: (16-14-15)
1. Sid Smith, Tor LW 51 (9-1-3)
2. Red Kelly, Det D 27 (3-2-6)
T3. Bill Mosienko, Chi RW 23 (4-1-0)
T3. Don Raleigh, NYR C 23 (0-6-5)
5. Floyd Curry, Mtl RW 13 (0-4-1)

1952-53 Kelly and Harvey again, Kelly would have won another Norris and placed 3rd in the MVP and won the Byng

HART: (18-12-10)
1. Gordie Howe, Det RW 58 (9-4-1)
2. Al Rollins, Chi G 25 (3-3-1)
3. Red Kelly, Det D 25 (2-3-6)
4. Gerry McNeil, Mtl G 16 (3-0-1)
5. Ted Kennedy, Tor C 12 (1-

LADY BYNG: (18-17-10)
1. Red Kelly, Det D 80 (13-5-0)
2. Wally Hergesheimer, NYR RW 49 (5-6-6)
3. Sid Smith, Tor LW 8 (0-2-2)
T4. Bill Quackenbush, Bos D 7 (0-2-1)
T4. Jim Peters, Chi RW 7 (0-2-1)

1953-54 Kelly and Harvey again Kelly wins the Norris and the Byng and palces 2nd in the MVP.

HART: (142-120)
1. Al Rollins, Chi G 80 (50-30)
2. Red Kelly, Det D 74 (40-34)
3. Maurice Richard, Mtl LW 44 (20-24)
4. Gordie Howe, Det RW 33 (22-11)
5. Harry Lumley, Det G 31 (10-21)

NORRIS: (98-121)
1. Red Kelly, Det 162 (76-86)
2. Doug Harvey, Mtl 57 (22-35)

LADY BYNG: (127-128)
1. Red Kelly, Det D 112 (50-62)
2. Don Raleigh, NYR C 84 (31-53)
3. Bill Mosienko, Chi RW 28 (21-7)
4. Sid Smith, Tor LW 18 (12-6)
5. Ed Sandford, Bos LW 13 (13-0)

1954-55 Harvey starts to gain some ground on Kelly wins his first of 4 consecutive Norris Trophies Kelly finishes 2nd, Harvey places 5th in the MVP, Kelly 3rd for the Byng.

HART: (103-119)
1. Ted Kennedy, Tor C 86 (40-46)
2. Harry Lumley, Tor G 61 (23-38)
3. Maurice Richard, Mtl LW 36 (19-17)
4. Jean Beliveau, Mtl C 21 (14-7)
5. Doug Harvey, Mtl D 18 (7-11)

NORRIS: (144-155)
1. Doug Harvey, Mtl 147 (72-75)
2. Red Kelly, Det 95 (40-55)
3. Fern Flaman, Bos 32 (17-15)
4. Bob Goldham, Det 16 (7-9)
5. Hugh Bolton, Tor 9 (8-1)

LADY BYNG: (136-133)
1. Sid Smith, Tor LW 114 (50-64)
2. Danny Lewicki, NYR LW 72 (27-45)
3. Red Kelly, Det D 53 (34-19)
T4. Jean Beliveau, Mtl C 15 (11-4)
T4. Don Raleigh, NYR C 15 (14-1)

1955-56

Harvey picks up steam and wins his 2nd Norris. Kelly who racked up 50 points that year, spends some time at forward to boost the Wings offense. The writers cant pigeonhole the guy in one slot so he gets a 2nd team berth at Defense, but finishes ahead of Harvey in the MVP voting.

HART: (142-146)
1. Jean Beliveau, Mtl C 94 (53-41)
2. Tod Sloan, Tor C 86 (14-72)
3. Lorne Worsley, NYR G 72 (55-17)
4. Red Kelly, Det D 25 (14-11)
5. Doug Harvey, Mtl D 11 (6-5)
6. Johnny Wilson, Chi LW 10
7. Gordie Howe, Det RW 8
T8. Andy Bathgate, NYR RW 6
T8. Maurice Richard, Mtl RW 6
10. T. Lindsay, Det LW 3

NORRIS: (130-161)
1. Doug Harvey, Mtl 156 (78-78)
2. Bill Gadsby, NYR 59 (16-43)
3. Red Kelly, Det 44 (17-27)
4. Tom Johnson, Mtl 21 (14-7)
5. Fern Flaman, Bos 11 (5-6)

1956-57 Harvey and Kelly make the 1st team. Harvey places 5th in the MVP

HART: (144-128)
1. Gordie Howe, Det RW 111 (43-68)
2. Jean Beliveau, Mtl C 58 (51-7)
3. Andy Bathgate, NYR RW 51 (0-51)
4. Terry Sawchuk, Bos G 35 (35-0)
5. Doug Harvey, Mtl D 17 (15-2)
6. Ed Litzenberger, Chi RW 13

NORRIS: (150-141)
1. Doug Harvey, Mtl 159 (83-76)
2. Red Kelly, Det 42 (20-22)
3. Fern Flaman, Bos 35 (16-19)
4. Bill Gadsby, NYR 32 (14-18)
5. Doug Mohns, Bos 23 (17-6)

And we pretty much know the rest..... Harvey racked up a few more Norris trophies, and they both continued on with Hall Of Fame careers. End of year awards will give you an idea of how the players were regarded when they were active and I think Kelly breaks out a lot better than people realize.

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Old
05-20-2006, 05:03 PM
  #36
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One other note that can be added, Kelly was a unanimous all-star 3 times to Harvey's once.

Unanimous all-stars:
50-51: Milt Schmidt, C; Red Kelly, D 90 (18-0-0)
51-52: Gordie Howe, RW; Red Kelly, D; Terry Sawchuck 90 (18-0-0)
52-53: Gordie Howe, RW; Red Kelly, D 90 (18-0-0)
57-58: Doug Harvey, D 180 (18-0-0/18-0-0)

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Old
05-20-2006, 07:44 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scribe114
Good points by all on Kelly.

One of the things I think we need to look at is how players were regarded within the context of their time, and Kelly actually breaks out pretty well. Kelly and Harvey both broke in during the 1947-48 season and based on the awards voting over the first 10 years of their careers Harvey was not considered his equal. Lets take a look:

1947-48

CALDER: (86)
1. Jim McFadden, Det C 50
2. Pete Babando, Bos LW 22
3. Red Kelly, Det D/C 14

Neither placed on the end of year All-Star teams if the Norris was given that year, it would have been Quackenbush

1948-49 Neither placed in end of the season awards Porjected Norris: Quackenbush again.

1949-50

Kelly made the 2nd team, placed 3rd in the Lady Byng Projected Norris: Gus Mortson

LADY BYNG: (18-18-11)
1. Edgar Laprade, NYR C 48 (12-6-0)
2. Red Kelly, Det D 21 (3-5-2)
3. Paul Ronty, Bos C 14 (1-4-3)

1950-51 Kelly would have won the Projected Norris, placed 3rd in the MVP and won the Lady Byng

HART: (18-18-18)
1. Milt Schmidt, Bos C 40 (10-4-2)
2. Maurice Richard, Mtl LW 28 (5-4-5)
T3. Red Kelly, Det D 11 (1-2-4)
T3. Gordie Howe, Det RW 11 (0-5-1)
5. Ted Kennedy, Tor C 8 (0-2-4)
6. Bert Olmstead, Mtl LW 6 (2-0-0)
7. Bill Quackenbush, Bos D 2 (0-1-0)
T8. Al Rollins, Tor G 1 (0-0-1)
T8. Roy Conacher, Chi LW 1 (0-0-1)

LADY BYNG: (17-13-12)
1. Red Kelly, Det D 31 (6-5-3)
2. Woody Dumart, Bos LW 22 (4-2-6)
3. Bill Quackenbush, Bos D 17 (3-2-2)
4. Buddy O’Connor, NYR C 11 (2-2-1)
5. Roy Conacher, Chi LW 10 (2-2-0)

1951-52 Harvey breaks through with as 1st team berth, Kelly gets the most 1st teams votes and places 2nd for the Byng, Porjected Norris: Kelly

LADY BYNG: (16-14-15)
1. Sid Smith, Tor LW 51 (9-1-3)
2. Red Kelly, Det D 27 (3-2-6)
T3. Bill Mosienko, Chi RW 23 (4-1-0)
T3. Don Raleigh, NYR C 23 (0-6-5)
5. Floyd Curry, Mtl RW 13 (0-4-1)

1952-53 Kelly and Harvey again, Kelly would have won another Norris and placed 3rd in the MVP and won the Byng

HART: (18-12-10)
1. Gordie Howe, Det RW 58 (9-4-1)
2. Al Rollins, Chi G 25 (3-3-1)
3. Red Kelly, Det D 25 (2-3-6)
4. Gerry McNeil, Mtl G 16 (3-0-1)
5. Ted Kennedy, Tor C 12 (1-

LADY BYNG: (18-17-10)
1. Red Kelly, Det D 80 (13-5-0)
2. Wally Hergesheimer, NYR RW 49 (5-6-6)
3. Sid Smith, Tor LW 8 (0-2-2)
T4. Bill Quackenbush, Bos D 7 (0-2-1)
T4. Jim Peters, Chi RW 7 (0-2-1)

1953-54 Kelly and Harvey again Kelly wins the Norris and the Byng and palces 2nd in the MVP.

HART: (142-120)
1. Al Rollins, Chi G 80 (50-30)
2. Red Kelly, Det D 74 (40-34)
3. Maurice Richard, Mtl LW 44 (20-24)
4. Gordie Howe, Det RW 33 (22-11)
5. Harry Lumley, Det G 31 (10-21)

NORRIS: (98-121)
1. Red Kelly, Det 162 (76-86)
2. Doug Harvey, Mtl 57 (22-35)

LADY BYNG: (127-128)
1. Red Kelly, Det D 112 (50-62)
2. Don Raleigh, NYR C 84 (31-53)
3. Bill Mosienko, Chi RW 28 (21-7)
4. Sid Smith, Tor LW 18 (12-6)
5. Ed Sandford, Bos LW 13 (13-0)

1954-55 Harvey starts to gain some ground on Kelly wins his first of 4 consecutive Norris Trophies Kelly finishes 2nd, Harvey places 5th in the MVP, Kelly 3rd for the Byng.

HART: (103-119)
1. Ted Kennedy, Tor C 86 (40-46)
2. Harry Lumley, Tor G 61 (23-38)
3. Maurice Richard, Mtl LW 36 (19-17)
4. Jean Beliveau, Mtl C 21 (14-7)
5. Doug Harvey, Mtl D 18 (7-11)

NORRIS: (144-155)
1. Doug Harvey, Mtl 147 (72-75)
2. Red Kelly, Det 95 (40-55)
3. Fern Flaman, Bos 32 (17-15)
4. Bob Goldham, Det 16 (7-9)
5. Hugh Bolton, Tor 9 (8-1)

LADY BYNG: (136-133)
1. Sid Smith, Tor LW 114 (50-64)
2. Danny Lewicki, NYR LW 72 (27-45)
3. Red Kelly, Det D 53 (34-19)
T4. Jean Beliveau, Mtl C 15 (11-4)
T4. Don Raleigh, NYR C 15 (14-1)

1955-56

Harvey picks up steam and wins his 2nd Norris. Kelly who racked up 50 points that year, spends some time at forward to boost the Wings offense. The writers cant pigeonhole the guy in one slot so he gets a 2nd team berth at Defense, but finishes ahead of Harvey in the MVP voting.

HART: (142-146)
1. Jean Beliveau, Mtl C 94 (53-41)
2. Tod Sloan, Tor C 86 (14-72)
3. Lorne Worsley, NYR G 72 (55-17)
4. Red Kelly, Det D 25 (14-11)
5. Doug Harvey, Mtl D 11 (6-5)
6. Johnny Wilson, Chi LW 10
7. Gordie Howe, Det RW 8
T8. Andy Bathgate, NYR RW 6
T8. Maurice Richard, Mtl RW 6
10. T. Lindsay, Det LW 3

NORRIS: (130-161)
1. Doug Harvey, Mtl 156 (78-78)
2. Bill Gadsby, NYR 59 (16-43)
3. Red Kelly, Det 44 (17-27)
4. Tom Johnson, Mtl 21 (14-7)
5. Fern Flaman, Bos 11 (5-6)

1956-57 Harvey and Kelly make the 1st team. Harvey places 5th in the MVP

HART: (144-128)
1. Gordie Howe, Det RW 111 (43-68)
2. Jean Beliveau, Mtl C 58 (51-7)
3. Andy Bathgate, NYR RW 51 (0-51)
4. Terry Sawchuk, Bos G 35 (35-0)
5. Doug Harvey, Mtl D 17 (15-2)
6. Ed Litzenberger, Chi RW 13

NORRIS: (150-141)
1. Doug Harvey, Mtl 159 (83-76)
2. Red Kelly, Det 42 (20-22)
3. Fern Flaman, Bos 35 (16-19)
4. Bill Gadsby, NYR 32 (14-18)
5. Doug Mohns, Bos 23 (17-6)

And we pretty much know the rest..... Harvey racked up a few more Norris trophies, and they both continued on with Hall Of Fame careers. End of year awards will give you an idea of how the players were regarded when they were active and I think Kelly breaks out a lot better than people realize.
That is a great analysis. Makes a very good argument for Kelly. As a child of the 50's, I remember that when the greatest defensmen's names came up it was always Kelly, Harvey & Shore (this is pre Orr), If Kelly Had stayed as a defenceman, he might have won a couple of more Norris trophies , If it had been given out earlier, as you say, he certainly would have won a couple more.

Detroit probably would have won a couple of more cups if they kept players such as Kelly,lindsay & Sawchuk (Bucyk too) a little longer.

Jack Adams stayed on too long and couldn't adjust to the new world.

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Old
05-21-2006, 11:00 AM
  #38
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Lidstrom over Chelios?

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