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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

More important to Oiler dynasty: Gretzky or Messier?

View Poll Results: Who was more important?
Wayne Gretzky 120 86.96%
Mark Messier 18 13.04%
Voters: 138. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-24-2006, 08:58 PM
  #51
Lord J T Shark
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Well

the oilers won 1 with Messier and no wayne

but wayne being wayne raised everyone's skill levels

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Old
05-24-2006, 09:16 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Gretzky had 48% more ESGA than the next NHLer in history. Where did I say Goal Diff?

Gretzky was traded for Jimmy Carson straight up (both were destructive forces in the locker rooms; Sather had had enough of Gretz) - the money thing was never proven; the NHL would have stepped in otherwise.

Watching Gretz try to skate in his last 4-5 seasons was worth the price of admission. No one would even dare touch him. Those little asissts in yet another Rangers loss were funny too - he was so proud of them with his shirt half tucked out earnestly trying to get a point in the last minute of play.

I know its hard to keep up but I said he never drew a penalty as in "he was never slashed or checked". Who cares how many times he sat in the box himself taking a leak.

Well..... 15% of the polled think Messier was more important than $99. Seems about the right percentage in life and hockey. 85% sheep; 15% thinkers.
You really just make this crap up as you go along, don't you?

Gretzky for Jimmy Carson strait up? A two second google search reveals what an idiotic statement that is.

Facts have never gotten in the way of your insane hatred of Wayne before, so I don't expect them to matter now. Suffice to say, damn near everything you say is a flat-out lie.


Last edited by JCD: 05-24-2006 at 10:47 PM.
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Old
05-24-2006, 09:54 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Wayne had 40% more even strength goals against than any other player in history.
Completely false.

Name GP ESGA (* not including 2004 or 2006)
Wayne Gretzky 1487 1838
Paul Coffey 1409 1654
Larry Murphy 1615 1541
Ray Bourque 1612 1458
Mark Messier 1680 1455
Ron Francis 1651 1454
Dave Babych 1195 1422
Scott Stevens 1597 1399
Phil Housley 1495 1386
Marcel Dionne 1348 1368

Gretzky was on the ice for 11% more even-strength goals than anyone else. And he scored 51% more points than anyone else. I'll gladly take that trade-off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
The only Art Ross being a minus.
Stan Mikita, 1968. -3, won the Art Ross.

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Old
05-24-2006, 10:02 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
Completely false.

Name GP ESGA (* not including 2004 or 2006)
Wayne Gretzky 1487 1838
Paul Coffey 1409 1654
Larry Murphy 1615 1541
Ray Bourque 1612 1458
Mark Messier 1680 1455
Ron Francis 1651 1454
Dave Babych 1195 1422
Scott Stevens 1597 1399
Phil Housley 1495 1386
Marcel Dionne 1348 1368

Gretzky was on the ice for 11% more even-strength goals than anyone else. And he scored 51% more points than anyone else. I'll gladly take that trade-off.



Stan Mikita, 1968. -3, won the Art Ross.
HO, how could you? You've needlessly terminated another one of chooch's fallacious Gretzky bashing facts. I just don't know how chooch is going to be able to continue to spew his historically inaccurate, hate-filled, petty, irrelevant nonsense around here, when his arguments continue to be exposed for the garbage that they are.

Maybe we should just stop exposing his ignorance, and let the troll continue to live in his little fantasy world, where fiction is truth.

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Old
05-25-2006, 01:02 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
HO, how could you? You've needlessly terminated another one of chooch's fallacious Gretzky bashing facts. I just don't know how chooch is going to be able to continue to spew his historically inaccurate, hate-filled, petty, irrelevant nonsense around here, when his arguments continue to be exposed for the garbage that they are.

Maybe we should just stop exposing his ignorance, and let the troll continue to live in his little fantasy world, where fiction is truth.
It's actually impressive that his arguments are SO wrong that they can be disproven with statistics, not just opinion.

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Old
05-25-2006, 04:33 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy
Is that so? Wayne Gretzky's Even Strength Goal Differential is significantly better than that of Mark Messier. Have a look.

Code:
PLAYER 	GF	GA	DIF
Gretzky	2356	1838	518
Messier	1662	1455	207
Gretzky's differential is a wopping 67% higher than Messier's.

At 37 years old in his second to last season, Wayne Gretzky finished tied for third with 90 Points in the NHL in scoring, one point behind Forsberg for second. Messier only had 60 Points.

Then why did they vote him one Pearson?

Hahaha, gold!

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Old
05-25-2006, 04:36 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
Completely false.

Name GP ESGA (* not including 2004 or 2006)
Wayne Gretzky 1487 1838
Paul Coffey 1409 1654
Larry Murphy 1615 1541
Ray Bourque 1612 1458
Mark Messier 1680 1455
Ron Francis 1651 1454
Dave Babych 1195 1422
Scott Stevens 1597 1399
Phil Housley 1495 1386
Marcel Dionne 1348 1368

Gretzky was on the ice for 11% more even-strength goals than anyone else. And he scored 51% more points than anyone else. I'll gladly take that trade-off.



Stan Mikita, 1968. -3, won the Art Ross.

Haha, you are my new hero, along with David Puddy

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Old
05-25-2006, 09:38 AM
  #58
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aww i was hoping the votes would be

Gretzky -- 99
Messier -- 11

ehh close enough

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Old
05-27-2006, 09:12 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
Completely false.

Name GP ESGA (* not including 2004 or 2006)
Wayne Gretzky 1487 1838
Paul Coffey 1409 1654

Larry Murphy 1615 1541
Ray Bourque 1612 1458
Mark Messier 1680 1455
Ron Francis 1651 1454
Dave Babych 1195 1422
Scott Stevens 1597 1399
Phil Housley 1495 1386
Marcel Dionne 1348 1368

Gretzky was on the ice for 11% more even-strength goals than anyone else. And he scored 51% more points than anyone else. I'll gladly take that trade-off.



Stan Mikita, 1968. -3, won the Art Ross.
I just want to know whether you believe those are attributes of a true superstar?


Lets leave defencemen out of it for now. Gretz has 400 more esga than the next forward. And in 200 less games!

If you prorate it, its about 45% more than the next forward.

Hows that for a stat thrown back at ya, you stats jockey.
Feeling foolish, yet?

So much for your "completely false" comment. You might be another Bucky/Ogo. I thought you were good with stats for awhile.

The two most overrated players ever in my opinion and youre proving my point since theyre at 1 and 2. Defencemen should normally get a bye in this ranking but Coffey has 200 less games played and 200 more evenstrentgh goals against than a Bourque. I know what he was doing on the ice and it wasnt pretty. Thats why like his buddy at #1 they bounced around a lot after their Oiler days. (and dont mix points and ESGA, you stats newbie).

Theyre all 80's dudes for the most part - proving that that decade was nonsense for hockey especially in the West.


Last edited by chooch*: 05-27-2006 at 09:28 AM.
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Old
05-27-2006, 10:22 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Lets leave defencemen out of it for now. Gretz has 400 more esga than the next forward. And in 200 less games!
He also has about 1,000 more points than the next forward...in 200 less games.

I'll take that trade-off any day.


Besides, I thought scoring was so high because he played in the run-and-gun west. So surely you can't blame a guy for being on the ice for lots of goals against. I heard they didn't even play with goalies in the Western Conference untill 1992.




[IMAGE]http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/1332/choochgretz8zc.jpg[/IMAGE]


Last edited by arrbez: 05-27-2006 at 10:31 AM.
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Old
05-27-2006, 11:18 AM
  #61
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Best. Picture. Of. All. Time.


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Old
05-27-2006, 05:03 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
I just want to know whether you believe those are attributes of a true superstar?


So much for your "completely false" comment. You might be another Bucky/Ogo. I thought you were good with stats for awhile.
The two most overrated players ever in my opinion and youre proving my point since theyre at 1 and 2. Defencemen should normally get a bye in this ranking but Coffey has 200 less games played and 200 more evenstrentgh goals against than a Bourque. I know what he was doing on the ice and it wasnt pretty. Thats why like his buddy at #1 they bounced around a lot after their Oiler days. (and dont mix points and ESGA, you stats newbie).

Theyre all 80's dudes for the most part - proving that that decade was nonsense for hockey especially in the West.

Chooch, I thought I had made it perfectly clear that while I was flattered by your extra attention, I just am not interested in being more than just friends. Please refrain from referencing me in your posts. Please, I implore you no private messages about non-hockey topics. Thanks

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Old
05-27-2006, 05:40 PM
  #63
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I'm thinking of buying Hockey's Future so I can make a rule that nobody who was born after 1980 can even discuss Wayne Gretzky.

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Old
05-27-2006, 11:41 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Thing
I'm thinking of buying Hockey's Future so I can make a rule that nobody who was born after 1980 can even discuss Wayne Gretzky.
I heard reindeer pelt is the official currency in Finland. Can you confirm?

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Old
05-28-2006, 07:16 AM
  #65
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I love Mark Messier. My second favourite player all time (first being Kevin Lowe) and a guy I'll promote forever.

However, when you ply on the same team as the best player of all time you will never be as important as that player.

I will say Messier opened up the ice for Gretzky more than it would've been if he was on a one line team.

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Old
05-28-2006, 07:24 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
Chooch, I thought I had made it perfectly clear that while I was flattered by your extra attention, I just am not interested in being more than just friends. Please refrain from referencing me in your posts. Please, I implore you no private messages about non-hockey topics. Thanks
Ive never pmed an ******* like you; I give you authorization to go to teh mods about my supposed pm's to you.

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Old
05-28-2006, 07:25 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Gretzky was traded for Jimmy Carson straight up (both were destructive forces in the locker rooms; Sather had had enough of Gretz) - the money thing was never proven; the NHL would have stepped in otherwise.
Wow...

The money thing hasn't been proven?

Is your tin hat comfortable?

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Old
05-28-2006, 07:30 AM
  #68
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Big bags of cash is not evidence!

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Old
05-28-2006, 08:43 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Ive never pmed an ******* like you; I give you authorization to go to teh mods about my supposed pm's to you.

Please, chooch, stop calling me swear words and leave me alone- I'm just not interested in anything more than being friends.

Thanks in advance!

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Old
05-28-2006, 05:33 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez
He also has about 1,000 more points than the next forward...in 200 less games.

I'll take that trade-off any day.


Besides, I thought scoring was so high because he played in the run-and-gun west. So surely you can't blame a guy for being on the ice for lots of goals against. I heard they didn't even play with goalies in the Western Conference untill 1992.




[IMAGE]http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/1332/choochgretz8zc.jpg[/IMAGE]
Come one arrbez, you know youre in over your head discussing anything except Tie domi's future.

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Old
05-28-2006, 05:59 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Come one arrbez, you know youre in over your head discussing anything except Tie domi's future.
I pay my taxes, and I'll vote for whomever I choose in the federal elections.


Last edited by arrbez: 05-28-2006 at 10:11 PM.
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Old
05-28-2006, 07:18 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Come one arrbez, you know youre in over your head discussing anything except Tie domi's future.

I watched an old classic '83 Finals game, game 4 against the New York Islanders.

I stopped counting the amount of time Gretzky backchecked at 23. Including one time where he broke up a guy trying to get in on a breakaway (as in Gretzky was the first one back).

Not too shabby for a guy that teammates apparently would shout "get back on defense" and whatnot.

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Old
05-28-2006, 07:34 PM
  #73
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This is hilarious.

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Old
05-29-2006, 11:27 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez
I pay my taxes, and I'll vote for whomever I choose in the federal elections.

Unless you are attempting to incite a slew of private messages that may or may not make you uncomfortable, I suggest you cease arguing with chooch, arbezz

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Old
05-29-2006, 11:47 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Well..... 15% of the polled think Messier was more important than $99. Seems about the right percentage in life and hockey. 85% sheep; 15% thinkers.
What's the percentage of bitter French guys who immediately discredit anyone who doesn't share their heritage as "overrated," even when their arguments have been ripped to shreds and dismissed as idiocy countless times?

The answer is Gretzky, and it's not even close.

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