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On drafting Wishart

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Old
05-20-2006, 08:07 AM
  #1
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On drafting Wishart

I hope the Habs do not draft Wishart. He is big, strong but very immobile. You donít notice it so much with him playing in the WHL, where 75% of the players are non-pro material. But in the U18 tournament it was very blatant. Wishart will go on to play in the NHL. Maybe a long career, something like 300-400 career NHL games, but similar to a Patrice Traverse type.

If they plan on doing that I would rather see them trade the pick. Maybe package Abs and/or Perezhogin with it and get a young, defenseman from another team. Say, deal Abs to move up in the draft then trade the high pick and Perezhogin for somebody like Suter. With Suter immediately increasing the defense with no big money spent. Kostitsyn replacing Perezhogin in the lineup and Danis replacing Abs.

Gives us lots of money room in the cap to throw at Arnott...I hope(lol)

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05-20-2006, 09:03 AM
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If Wishart lacks lateral mobility, why would you think Savard would take him if still available? He won't.They don't want another Wilkie,or any type of project.And no, I don't think Kostitsyn a project at all.

It should be clear by now that Savard will look at 1st rders to have as few flaws as possible, and if one part of the game is so much more dominant than the rest,then the kid must have the work ethic,intensity and hockey sense to elevate the other aspects to bring more skills into equilibrium.

If there are doubts regarding a pick's hockey sense,while scouts rave about his skating, puck skills,shot or physical play, then he won't be part of the Habs top list.If you don't avoid types like that, you end up drafting a Brisebois, and ignoring a Lidstrom.

Rememeber that Savard selected Mike Fisher one spot ahead of Mike Ribeiro in the 1998 draft draft.That should give you an idea of the balance he looks to find in a draftee.

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05-20-2006, 09:30 AM
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I have always been terrified when I read that we should draft Wishart. One of the most important thing is the constant progression of a player, because it indicates many important factors like work ethic, feel for the game, passion and potential. And clearly, Wishart doesn't have it at all (the progression). Also, his offensive and defensive play were subpar at the U18 and I've seen nothing in his game that makes me think he's worth our first pick.

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05-20-2006, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rather Gingerly 1
I hope the Habs do not draft Wishart. He is big, strong but very immobile. You donít notice it so much with him playing in the WHL, where 75% of the players are non-pro material. But in the U18 tournament it was very blatant. Wishart will go on to play in the NHL. Maybe a long career, something like 300-400 career NHL games, but similar to a Patrice Traverse type.

If they plan on doing that I would rather see them trade the pick. Maybe package Abs and/or Perezhogin with it and get a young, defenseman from another team. Say, deal Abs to move up in the draft then trade the high pick and Perezhogin for somebody like Suter. With Suter immediately increasing the defense with no big money spent. Kostitsyn replacing Perezhogin in the lineup and Danis replacing Abs.

Gives us lots of money room in the cap to throw at Arnott...I hope(lol)
I hope that the theme of speed speed and more speed comes thru. Even the oilers role players can skate

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05-20-2006, 11:10 AM
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I'm also hoping the Habs pass on Wishart, I wouldn't be surprised if he drops out of the first round.

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05-20-2006, 11:18 AM
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Wishart doesn't look like a d-man that could thrive in the new NHL... I would be upset if the habs chose him.

I'd jump and giggle like a school girl if the habs could find a way to nab Bobby Sangenetti (in the unlikely event that he drops). I think he could have a great career in the new NHL.

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05-20-2006, 10:24 PM
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I am a little bit baffled by this thread so far. Wishart is not considered to be a defenseman who lacks mobility. If anything, his skating is considered a plus for a guy his size. At the Top Prospects skills combine he was 14th overall in skills, including 6th overall in the 60' dash. Considering that his current growth stage has him a bit tall and gangly with probably a hit to his overall coordination, I would think he projects as quite an attractive defenseman for the new NHL, combining decent skating with great reach.

As for progression... how do we judge that so far? He has progressed in a couple of WHL years, but what more is there to go by?

Given the character attributes Wishart probably possesses a package that will appeal significantly to Savard et. co.

That said, I do firmly believe that one of the players who is normally listed as a consensus higher pick will drop down to us. I have no idea who that will be, but Frolik, Sheppard, or Little are my most oft-quoted examples. If the draft goes completely according to the usual consensus, then Wishart is my choice. But I don't believe for a microsecond that the draft will go that way, as a decent handful of teams picking ahead of us will probably surprise us, and so a player who I want more will ultimately be available.

That said, I won't be remotely surprised if Wishart is picked before we even get a chance at him either.

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05-21-2006, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien
I am a little bit baffled by this thread so far. Wishart is not considered to be a defenseman who lacks mobility. If anything, his skating is considered a plus for a guy his size. At the Top Prospects skills combine he was 14th overall in skills, including 6th overall in the 60' dash. Considering that his current growth stage has him a bit tall and gangly with probably a hit to his overall coordination, I would think he projects as quite an attractive defenseman for the new NHL, combining decent skating with great reach.

As for progression... how do we judge that so far? He has progressed in a couple of WHL years, but what more is there to go by?

Given the character attributes Wishart probably possesses a package that will appeal significantly to Savard et. co.

That said, I do firmly believe that one of the players who is normally listed as a consensus higher pick will drop down to us. I have no idea who that will be, but Frolik, Sheppard, or Little are my most oft-quoted examples. If the draft goes completely according to the usual consensus, then Wishart is my choice. But I don't believe for a microsecond that the draft will go that way, as a decent handful of teams picking ahead of us will probably surprise us, and so a player who I want more will ultimately be available.

That said, I won't be remotely surprised if Wishart is picked before we even get a chance at him either.
I take it you never watched the U18 tourny. He was terrible. Very slow getting to the puck in his own end. He'll make it....but Patrice Traverse type player

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05-21-2006, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rather Gingerly 1
I take it you never watched the U18 tourny. He was terrible. Very slow getting to the puck in his own end. He'll make it....but Patrice Traverse type player
I watched the U-18 tourney. The thing is, that's not the ONLY thing I judge him on. If we judged our prospects ONLY on their performances in the U-18s, we would never have drafted Carey Price or Guillaume Latendresse either, who looked similarly out of their element last year. Wishart struggled and didn't look like himself in that tournament, it's true. Hopefully that will hurt his stock enough to keep him from being drafted ahead of us, which was almost certain before, but now is perhaps less certain. And I think if you watched closely, you would recognize that his poor play wasn't due to his footwork, which is still solid, but rather more to just poor reaction times and bad decisions. He wasn't anticipating well, and wasn't going to the right places at the right time, and whether that's a function of being unused to the big ice, or trying to overcompensate with the C in anticipating tougher officiating than he was used to, etc. Or simple fatigue from playing a full year and then jetting off for this tourney.

Or who knows, maybe the U-18 is the true picture of Wishart.

But I think in general it would be silly to get too worked up about any prospect based on a few games either way on TV. I'm sure there are some people who thought he was a godlike potential top-10 pick when they saw his Team Cherry MVP performance in the Top Prospects game. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, which is what my armchair imagination is telling me. Everybody's armchair imagination is different, though, so everybody will have their own favourites. I think you'd get more mileage out of comparing Wishart to Jassen Cullimore than Patrick Traverse, btw.

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05-21-2006, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien
I watched the U-18 tourney. The thing is, that's not the ONLY thing I judge him on. If we judged our prospects ONLY on their performances in the U-18s, we would never have drafted Carey Price or Guillaume Latendresse either, who looked similarly out of their element last year. Wishart struggled and didn't look like himself in that tournament, it's true. Hopefully that will hurt his stock enough to keep him from being drafted ahead of us, which was almost certain before, but now is perhaps less certain. And I think if you watched closely, you would recognize that his poor play wasn't due to his footwork, which is still solid, but rather more to just poor reaction times and bad decisions. He wasn't anticipating well, and wasn't going to the right places at the right time, and whether that's a function of being unused to the big ice, or trying to overcompensate with the C in anticipating tougher officiating than he was used to, etc. Or simple fatigue from playing a full year and then jetting off for this tourney.

Or who knows, maybe the U-18 is the true picture of Wishart.

But I think in general it would be silly to get too worked up about any prospect based on a few games either way on TV. I'm sure there are some people who thought he was a godlike potential top-10 pick when they saw his Team Cherry MVP performance in the Top Prospects game. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, which is what my armchair imagination is telling me. Everybody's armchair imagination is different, though, so everybody will have their own favourites. I think you'd get more mileage out of comparing Wishart to Jassen Cullimore than Patrick Traverse, btw.
I'm one of those against drafting Wishart, but I never said that his skating is bad. On the contrary, it was one of the things I was really impressed with. For a big guy, he is a good skater. I think there are better skaters on the blueline though but Wishart's skating is good.

How was his performance at the prospect game? I wanted to watch it but I couldn't because I felt asleep like 3 times, I was really sick and on like 4 mg of Dilaudid.

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05-21-2006, 09:42 AM
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The 14th best skater in the TPG is misleading this year. After the first 10 picks or so the 2006 draft lacks considerable depth.

A few years ago Wishart would have been a solid mid-first rounder. But the game has changed...he has trouble playing in high speed game. Big, big hole

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05-21-2006, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franchise player
I'm one of those against drafting Wishart, but I never said that his skating is bad. On the contrary, it was one of the things I was really impressed with. For a big guy, he is a good skater. I think there are better skaters on the blueline though but Wishart's skating is good.

How was his performance at the prospect game? I wanted to watch it but I couldn't because I felt asleep like 3 times, I was really sick and on like 4 mg of Dilaudid.
He got 2 assists, looked surprisingly good on the point, played physical and skated really well and ended up as MVP for Team Cherry I believe. (Cody Burki was MVP for Team Orr). And that's the correct assessment of Wishart's skating, IMO... there are better skaters, for sure, but when you get a guy who'll play at 6-5/220 and he can be a decent skater too, then it's just a bonus. And if he can be a Team Canada captain, it's another bonus.

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05-21-2006, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Rather Gingerly 1
The 14th best skater in the TPG is misleading this year. After the first 10 picks or so the 2006 draft lacks considerable depth.
Well, that's 14th best overall, which combines skating, puck control, and shot. He slipped on the lap and lost time there, otherwise he probably would have approached top-10 overall. His best individual results were 6th in the 60' dash and 8th in hardest shot. I mean it's only 1 try, but consider: he beat Claude Giroux, Michael Grabner, Bobby Sanguinetti, Ben Shutron, and Ivan Vishnevskiy on puck control. He beat Derrick Brassard, Jamie McGinn, James Sheppard, and varieties of others on the 150' sprint. Etc. Not that any one event for him or any of these others tells the complete story. But combined, it sort of says something. It's not like there are only 13 players in the Top Prospects game who have any skill, and the rest are slugs. It is meaningful. Bottom line, if you don't like Wishart, fair enough, but you should dislike him for other reasons than his skating. Maybe you want him to hit harder. Maybe you want him to look more assertive and organized in his own zone. Maybe you just have nightmares of Bilodeau and Wilkie and all those guys and just have a bias against a big Western league defenseman. Or maybe you just have your own favourites and would like to put down their competitors. Fair enough for any of those reasons, IMO. But skating wouldn't fit in.
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A few years ago Wishart would have been a solid mid-first rounder. But the game has changed...he has trouble playing in high speed game. Big, big hole
I guess we'll see, won't we? Have you ever seen him play outside of the WU-18?

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05-21-2006, 11:15 AM
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I have seen Wishart play and I have seen Traverse "play?" never would I compare the two. Traverse was frightened of his shadow, awkward, seldom made sound decisions & lacked leadership. Wishart has potential,skates well for a big d-prospect, very tough in the corners, decent vision with first pass, and has proven leadership skills.......does his potential end up like Hainsey or Komisarek. The draft is more and more of a gamble after the top 10, thankfully Savard, Gainey & Timmons are selecting & not the fans.

We need D, D and more D in this draft so I wouldn't be surprised with Wishart.

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05-21-2006, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by BJCOLLINS
We need D, D and more D in this draft so I wouldn't be surprised with Wishart.
We need good players, more good players and even more good players, period.

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05-21-2006, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BJCOLLINS
We need D, D and more D in this draft so I wouldn't be surprised with Wishart.
If they are going to draft a fringe d-man like Wishart I would rather seem them pick up similar player like Mezei. As least he can help us now

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05-21-2006, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by V-2 Schneider
If Wishart lacks lateral mobility, why would you think Savard would take him if still available? He won't.They don't want another Wilkie,or any type of project.And no, I don't think Kostitsyn a project at all.

It should be clear by now that Savard will look at 1st rders to have as few flaws as possible, and if one part of the game is so much more dominant than the rest,then the kid must have the work ethic,intensity and hockey sense to elevate the other aspects to bring more skills into equilibrium.

If there are doubts regarding a pick's hockey sense,while scouts rave about his skating, puck skills,shot or physical play, then he won't be part of the Habs top list.If you don't avoid types like that, you end up drafting a Brisebois, and ignoring a Lidstrom.

Rememeber that Savard selected Mike Fisher one spot ahead of Mike Ribeiro in the 1998 draft draft.That should give you an idea of the balance he looks to find in a draftee.
I think it is VERY clear that Savard is not the one calling the shots at the draft table. He use to be when GM and up to the 2003 draft. But since then, he has been asst. GM and is the one running the farm in Hamilton.

Gainey has final say on the picks but is delegating draft day decisions to Timmins. Timmins makes the 1st round picks from the podium, not Savard. I remember Savard seeming unhappy about the Price pick last summer and yet...

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05-22-2006, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by The Macho Man
I think it is VERY clear that Savard is not the one calling the shots at the draft table. He use to be when GM and up to the 2003 draft. But since then, he has been asst. GM and is the one running the farm in Hamilton.

Gainey has final say on the picks but is delegating draft day decisions to Timmins. Timmins makes the 1st round picks from the podium, not Savard. I remember Savard seeming unhappy about the Price pick last summer and yet...
It was shown at last year's draft when Savard wanted Brule and threw his pencil when they picked Price that Timmins calls the shots at the draft table.

However, I think Wishart probably will be our pick this year. Given we are desperate for d-men in the system and Wishart is sure not to be wanted by many other teams.

He...he.. We couldn't be so lucky for Toronto to draft Wishart could we?

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05-22-2006, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by franchise player
We need good players, more good players and even more good players, period.
I agree, but, we will not select BPA if for instance if it's a goalie. Why? Because the need isn't there for G or F. The organization needs D. We will not be getting a Pronger or any other type of #1 D at our position........if Wishart or Sagenettie(sp) or another D is selected and turns out to have the type of career Rivet has had we should be very happy but too many are looking for Johnson type of D at #16.The Habs are very weak on D prospects, another flashy F or G would be stupid (at #16). Too many people on these boards think that at #16 we can draft a superstar. The Habs penchant for going off the board has not worked well. Taking a flyer on Kost in 03 doesn't look very astute when you look at the player's who were ranked 10 thru 25(CSS) that spring ( Getzlaf, Richards, Brown, Parise, Carter, Kesler, Stewart, Belle, Perry,Seabrook & Bernier ) Kost may be a slow learner but man thats alot of quick studies that went after him.

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05-22-2006, 09:57 PM
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I know its not supposed to be a strong draft but I wonder if any of the Dmen available outside of Johnson can develop into something very special ala phaneuf.
If I remember when phaneuf was drafted there was also a series of dmen drafted the same year.. Coburn, Suter, Stuart and Bell all went in the first round. I wonder I this year's corp compares.... Johnson, Sanguinetti, Williams, Shutrom. Whishart, Strait..?

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05-22-2006, 10:09 PM
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Who was responsible for the Urquhart pick?

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05-22-2006, 10:28 PM
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Who was responsible for the Urquhart pick?

Andre Savard from what I recall.

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05-23-2006, 09:37 AM
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Central scouting mentioned that Wishart needs to improve his foot speed a half a step, as he rarely gets beat except by speedy forwards. It also mentions that he uses his size well but could play with more of an edge.

Now the first sentence, when combined with the other counter arguments that others have posted about the skills competitions, may be explained as a lack of development with his decision making on defence. Perhaps he reacts a split second to slowly to properly handle the faster skaters and then gets beat. If it's correct, then I believe that does not project well for the NHL, where the majority of the forwards are much faster than those Wishart faces now in the WHL. He could overcome this with further development but it's a concern.

The second Central Scouting statement is typical, as the younger players aren't always aggressive enough for some scouts. Dion Phaneuf type players are considered ideal, and there are rarely defencemen that are too agressive for any scouts' liking.

Personally, I'd rather see the Habs opt for defenceman Mark Mitera. He plays for the University of Michigan [Mike Komisarek's alma mater], and has a good combination of size [6'3", 202] skills [good skater, shot, puckhandling] and attitude [good competitor, plays hard every night]. He managed only 9 assists in his freshman year, but has the tools to improve on that, and will gain more ice time next season and beyond.


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05-23-2006, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habscout
Central scouting mentioned that Wishart needs to improve his foot speed a half a step, as he rarely gets beat except by speedy forwards.
Maybe there's a fine line between "needs to" and "could stand to", though. For sure, it would be nice if Wishart improved his speed. But you could say that for most young players, especially on D. Whether that is an absolute "need" or not, I don't know, I guess it depends on what you want him to end up being... big sluggish defensemen still (or at least used to) find employment. And Wishart already projects above that, regardless of this "needed" improvement.
Quote:
It also mentions that he uses his size well but could play with more of an edge.
As you say, same kind of idea. Whenever we see a guy 6-5, we want him to use it all. Of course, if he did use it, he's not a candidate for our pick, he goes top-10.
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Personally, I'd rather see the Habs opt for defenceman Mark Mitera. He plays for the University of Michigan [Mike Komisarek's alma mater], and has a good combination of size [6'3", 202] skills [good skater, shot, puckhandling] and attitude [good competitor, plays hard every night]. He managed only 9 assists in his freshman year, but has the tools to improve on that, and will gain more ice time next season and beyond.
Through the wonders of NHL Network, I've actually seen Mitera more than Wishart. I definitely wouldn't pick Mitera ahead of him. There are surface similarities, of course, in that we're talking about big, non-flashy defensemen in general. Mitera looks stronger, and I believe is a bit meaner, although the PIM totals probably don't show it. Maybe once Wishart gains similar strength he will pick that side of his game up too. I've said in the past that I think Mitera has some offensive upside that he hasn't yet had the opportunity to show in Michigan... the offensive upside is a bit tenuous for both of them, but for Mitera I don't see quite the puck-handling or passing ability that Wishart has. They both shoot hard.

I like Mitera, but I think he'd be quite a reach at #16. I could see him perhaps being regarded as a slightly safer pick than Wishart, but perhaps without the upside. Getting him around #21, like the Bruins did with Stuart, that might not be too bad, another handful of picks removed from any potential higher-profiled players who might drop down than the #16 pick. If Wishart was gone before #16, and we had elected to trade down, I certainly wouldn't have a problem picking Mitera later on (although I have no real way to gauge him against the plethora of other USHS or USHL defensemen who are also touted for that area of the draft -- I've seen all I need of Mitera, but I don't know those guys at all.)

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05-23-2006, 10:53 AM
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I find it very interesting to read all of the differing viewpoints on Wishart. I know nothing of junior hockey so any info I read from here means more to me than anything I read in a magazine.

I'm not scout but thinking of Brent Bilodeau and Lindsay Vallis scare the crap out of me. Personally speaking I'd rather take a flyer on an offensive dynamo than take a lanky d-man, but again that's pure ignorance on my part.

From what I have read in various posts a guy like Brassard would be great to pick but he might not fall to us. If we can not trade up to get Brassard then I'm curious to see who we pick.

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