Amazing how feelings change when Messier gets the actual playing time he deserves. Mine have changed greatly. Im finding myself actually looking forward to his shifts. Last year, I couldnt wait till his ass was off.
He might just be improving his legacy after tarnishing it the past years. Way to go Mess and continued success.
Maybe Mess should've retired but then again a player like him doesn't like going out unless it's on top and he just hasnt had that chance recently. Say what you want but at the end of the day there isnt a player who's played in this league who commands more respect from teammates and opposing players alike as Mark Messier has over his career. He's possibly the best all around player who's ever played the game when you take everything into account and I hope he not only smashes Howe's record but has an amazing last year just to quiet all the doubters.
Gretzky and Orr are THE two best hockey players ever bar none.
Mark Messier just might be the most valuable player ever.
On top of everything else, what he did during the Oiler's last cup, the one without Gretzky, and what he did for the Rangers (in the early 90's and culminated with 1994) are two of the most amazing accomplishments ever in sports in my estimation. Then there's everything else that he did besides.
Agreed. I believe Messier was better. Just my opinion, and not meant as a slight to 99.
I realize offensive numbers aren't everything in hockey, but just to put things in perspective:
One guy has scored over 200 points in the NHL; and he did it four times.
Wayne has more ASSISTS than anyone has POINTS. On top of that, he has the most goals of all time as well.
All time leaders in points: 2857...1850, 1849, 1771, 1761, 1701, 1678... How can you even compare them?
For a player to beat Wayne's goal scoring record, he'd have to AVERAGE 45 goals a year from the time he entered the league at say, 18, until he turned 38.
For that player to beat Wayne's assist record, he'd have to set up almost 100 goals a year for those same years.
Last season's NHL leading scorer Peter Forsberg had 106 points. The year before, Iginla managed 96. Jagr had 121 prior to that. In order to beat Wayne's records, this 18 year old kid has to score 143 points a year for 20 straight years. (!!!)
I realize we're talking about a lost era when scoring was way up, but Mark Messier, Marcel Dionne, Ron Francis, Mario Lemieux, Steve Yzerman, and most of the all-time leading scorers also played during that time. How did Wayne outscore them by AT LEAST a THOUSAND points??
He's clearly, CLEARLY the greatest player in the history of the game.
Bobby Orr revolutionalized defensemen and the way the game is played forever, but I'd still have to put Wayne ahead of him.
I realize offensive numbers aren't everything in hockey, but just to put things in perspective:
One guy has scored over 200 points in the NHL; and he did it four times.
Wayne has more ASSISTS than anyone has POINTS. On top of that, he has the most goals of all time as well.
All time leaders in points: 2857...1850, 1849, 1771, 1761, 1701, 1678... How can you even compare them?
For a player to beat Wayne's goal scoring record, he'd have to AVERAGE 45 goals a year from the time he entered the league at say, 18, until he turned 38.
For that player to beat Wayne's assist record, he'd have to set up almost 100 goals a year for those same years.
Last season's NHL leading scorer Peter Forsberg had 106 points. The year before, Iginla managed 96. Jagr had 121 prior to that. In order to beat Wayne's records, this 18 year old kid has to score 143 points a year for 20 straight years. (!!!)
I realize we're talking about a lost era when scoring was way up, but Mark Messier, Marcel Dionne, Ron Francis, Mario Lemieux, Steve Yzerman, and most of the all-time leading scorers also played during that time. How did Wayne outscore them by AT LEAST a THOUSAND points??
He's clearly, CLEARLY the greatest player in the history of the game.
Bobby Orr revolutionalized defensemen and the way the game is played forever, but I'd still have to put Wayne ahead of him.
Just my two cents...
Here, Here. Having had the privilege of seeing two great players reach 1849 (assists in Gretzky's case, I saw 1850 too and points in Messier's case) I'm torn. Given the choice of only one (knowing how great each of them would be when they were 18) for my team...That's awfully tough. Messier is probably the best leader in sports I've ever seen, but Gretzky, to see him operate behind the net at his "office" or watch him pass the puck to himself as he streaks up the boards or watch him make passes to players who don't even realize where they are going to be when Gretzky starts the pass to them....Messier is the greatest all around player I've seen. Gretzky is the GREATEST player I've seen. He is truly The Great One. To have seen them play together in person is about as good as it gets.
Here, Here. Having had the privilege of seeing two great players reach 1849 (assists in Gretzky's case, I saw 1850 too and points in Messier's case) I'm torn. Given the choice of only one (knowing how great each of them would be when they were 18) for my team...That's awfully tough. Messier is probably the best leader in sports I've ever seen, but Gretzky, to see him operate behind the net at his "office" or watch him pass the puck to himself as he streaks up the boards or watch him make passes to players who don't even realize where they are going to be when Gretzky starts the pass to them....Messier is the greatest all around player I've seen. Gretzky is the GREATEST player I've seen. He is truly The Great One. To have seen them play together in person is about as good as it gets.
I'd pick Gretzky too, Leetchie
I dunno i'd have to go with Messier on this one. for me my reasoning is in the time period after the Gretzky trade. Gretzky was very good but obviously a notch lower.
Also with Gretzky he scored and that's all he did. he didnt check, he didnt play defense and to me he didnt command the oilers the way mess did. yes gretz was the captain but i think that was more due to him being gretz then his leadership being superior to messier's.
Honestly how many centers can benefit from having the second all time NHL scorer as their backup? i mean just think about that concept for a second. Messier played as gretzky's relief from 83-88. Before that, he wasn't even a center full time.
Not to take anything away from gretz, he was a great player, but he got more icetime and really better linemates then Messier for the most part. When all things were equal over the latter parts of their career {post trade till Gretz retirement} most gm's would take messier over gretzky {in hindsight maybe not at the time}.
To me messier could have put up a lot more points but he wasnt the go to guy to score and he did a lot of other things.
i dunno both guys had teams build around them after edmonton and messier had the better results by a mile. it's a VERY close call but i gotta go with messier. in his prime he did EVERYTHING and contributed even if he didnt score.
as for offensive player i cant really say that a healthy super mario wasnt just a tad more dangerous. he played during a time when the scoring started going down and outscore gretzky by a mile and his point per game is right on pace with gretz despite his health {which had an effect even when he was playing}. at 6'4, 230 he was impossible to contain.
to this day one of my fav. memories was seeing a game in 1997 between the rags and pens at msg. Gretzky, Messier and Mario all in the same game. Not to mention future hall of famers Mike Richter, Brian Leetch, Jagr and francis. i mean wow.
Fair enough, edge. But, centers always have more control over the game than other forwards. And watching Gretzky was dazzling, even the last season.
The cold rational side of me says I should pick Messier, but my heart wins out every time. Although, Messier will always be the Messiah for me. It's because of HIM that we won the Stanley Cup (Leetch too). Still....
The older I get, the more impressive Gretzky's numbers are. And watching old film, he was truly a one of a kind player.
However, Messier is a different player than Gretzky. He is what I consider to be a true hockey player. Gretzky was a freak. Mess was a guy who could (and would) beat you so many different ways. And he would do anything to win, whether it was block a shot, score a goal, throw a vicious (and boarderline legal) hit, drop the golves or will his teammates to win. And Mess won two Cups without Gretzky. Gretz didn't win one without Mess.
I look back to not just the 1994 playoffs where Messier, Richter, Graves and Leetch carried the team, but at other times as well. I remeber the nasty and illegal hit that Mess threw on Doug Gilmour in the 1996 playoffs against a highly favored Devil team. That hit in game one took Gilmour out of the entire series (he was never a factor) and the Rangers knocked off the Devils. That one play demonstrated what kind of player Messier was. It was one act that did not register on the scoreboard but was as important as any goal scored during that series. That's what Messier did.
I like a guy who can take care of himself (and his teammates, which likely benefitted Gretzky a bit). I like a guy who comes over the boards with a look that everybody fears...a guy who comes to the faceoff circle with a snarl. A guy who, like Gretzky, you thought everytime he went on the ice in an important game would come through. A guy who (often) rallied his team. A guy who did more than score...who led and threw the body around.
I remeber the nasty and illegal hit that Mess threw on Doug Gilmour in the 1996 playoffs against a highly favored Devil team.
One of my most memorably Messier moments was his hit on Scott Stevens in the beginning of game 2 or 3 against the Devils in 1994. He set the tone for the game early.
Much as I rail against Messier now, I still acknowledge him for the immortal that he is. To me the top 5 players of all time are
1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Messier
4. Orr
5. Lemiuex
TGO was an absolute prodigy, probably the likes of which will never be seen again. If I was starting a team, there is no doubt that my first pick would be a young Mess. For ability, sheer determination, hatred of loosing, and all the other intangibles. The only players who could ever be mentioned in the same breath as Messier as far as a mixture of ability AND intangibles are Howe and Orr.
Incredible to me how Gretzky actually gets underrates on hockey boards.
I expect in when talking with sports fans in general, but not among real hockey fans.
I don't think that saying that I would start my team with Messier instead of Gretzky is somehow not making me a real hockey fan. To me, Gretz is the greatest of all hockey players...past, present, and future. There will NEVER be another one of him. No one is going to touch 215 points. No one will ever have his vision or passing ability. However, if I'm starting my team and I have the choice of ANYONE, my choice would be a young Messier.
As for this comment,
"IMO Gretzky is the 2nd best athlete in North American team sports history."
Who is the first? Gretz was great, but how can you judge if he is a better athlete than Michael Jordan? Or Jack Nicklaus? Or Babe Ruth? Or Jim Brown? Or.........
I don't think that saying that I would start my team with Messier instead of Gretzky is somehow not making me a real hockey fan. To me, Gretz is the greatest of all hockey players...past, present, and future. There will NEVER be another one of him. No one is going to touch 215 points. No one will ever have his vision or passing ability. However, if I'm starting my team and I have the choice of ANYONE, my choice would be a young Messier.
As for this comment,
"IMO Gretzky is the 2nd best athlete in North American team sports history."
Who is the first? Gretz was great, but how can you judge if he is a better athlete than Michael Jordan? Or Jack Nicklaus? Or Babe Ruth? Or Jim Brown? Or.........
IMO only Ruth would be above Gretzky.
Gretzky was more doinant than Jordan, Brown & Nicklaus. I would contend that if Tiger continues to do what he's been doing for another 15 years or so and shatters Nicklaus' records, he will join the discussion.
To me, Gretzky was a freak, and on a list all by himself..
Orr was the only one who revolutionized the game abve and beyond the others, he changed the way defensemen played, and I don't think any other player has ever revolutionized a position like that.. Gretzky caused rule changes by his production, but the position was still played the same way, Orr made defensemen accountable in the offensive zone like no other..
Lemeuix ws closer to Gretzky, but fair or not, his injuries and health problems cut his career short, whether he's still playing or not, and that has to count against him..
Howe was the prodigal player, the one Messier became.. I don't know how you can choose between the two unless you witnessed both in their prime, and since I missed Howe's glory days, I can't choose..
To me, Gretzky was a freak, and on a list all by himself..
Orr was the only one who revolutionized the game abve and beyond the others, he changed the way defensemen played, and I don't think any other player has ever revolutionized a position like that.. Gretzky caused rule changes by his production, but the position was still played the same way, Orr made defensemen accountable in the offensive zone like no other..
Lemeuix ws closer to Gretzky, but fair or not, his injuries and health problems cut his career short, whether he's still playing or not, and that has to count against him..
Howe was the prodigal player, the one Messier became.. I don't know how you can choose between the two unless you witnessed both in their prime, and since I missed Howe's glory days, I can't choose..
So my list goes
1) Orr
2) Messier
2a) Howe
3) Lemeuix
With The Great One in a class all by himself..
Even though Messier was far more durable, and that certainly is a big factor, i couldn't list him above Lemieux.
Mario is the only one that at times when healthy could be near Gretzky's level of play.
The other thing that hurts Messier IMO is that one of the biggest things he had going for him is that he was a WINNER, and IMO that is very underrated, but these last 6 years with no playoff appearances hurt him a little.
I never saw Howe play, so I'll leave him out of my discussion.
