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An interesting little statistical comparison

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Old
11-04-2003, 08:07 PM
  #1
Laperriere22*
 
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An interesting little statistical comparison

1st 12 games under Bob Hartley in 02-03:

4-2-4-2 14 pts.

33 GF
28 GA
PP: 8-72 11.1%
PK: 53-65 81.5%

% of goals coming from the PP: 8 of 33 24.2%

1st 12 games under Tony Granato in 03-04:

6-5-1-0 13 pts.

41 GF
33 GA
PP: 15-60 25.0%
PK: 44-53 83.0%

% of goals coming from the PP: 15 of 41 36.6%

Granato hasn't even started better than Hartley did in the season he got fired. I find that quite interesting; also interesting that the Avs are way more reliant upon their PP to score this year as well. The PK unit isn't any better either (going by stats or watching it).

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11-04-2003, 08:16 PM
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I still don't think Granato was the right choice for coach. When you have a veteran team with a lot of stars (which increased over the summer), you need a veteran coach who has been there to keep them together.

Look at Detroit. The only real difference player wise between the team of 2 years ago and the team today is the loss of Fedorov but the addition of Hatcher and Whitney. Yeah, Hatcher is hurt but I think they will continue to struggle. The big difference of course is Scotty Bowman. No Bowman = no success in hockey town imo.

The Avs need to get a veteran coach of some sort. Who is out there right now.. maybe a Ted Nolan?

 
Old
11-04-2003, 08:58 PM
  #3
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I think a big reason would be Roy.

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11-04-2003, 09:01 PM
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It'd be nice if we took into consideration how healthy Bob Hartley's under-achieving squad was last year compared to Tony Granato's injury-ridden club this season.

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11-04-2003, 09:58 PM
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I understand the point out you're going with Lappy, but if anyone takes this as Granato's swan song, then I'll add this to RIAL's points...

Granato also hadn't been criticized for a good three seasons like Hartley had. Tony's only gotten one season of that. Because of that, I don't expect him to hit the road anytime soon. Injuries and the absence of Roy (and in turn a first time starter in the pipes) will buy Granato the rest of the season.

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11-05-2003, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
I understand the point out you're going with Lappy, but if anyone takes this as Granato's swan song, then I'll add this to RIAL's points...

Granato also hadn't been criticized for a good three seasons like Hartley had. Tony's only gotten one season of that. Because of that, I don't expect him to hit the road anytime soon. Injuries and the absence of Roy (and in turn a first time starter in the pipes) will buy Granato the rest of the season.
When was Hartley criticized before last year? He helped them win the cup!

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11-05-2003, 04:09 AM
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There was plenty of criticism of Hartley even during the Cup win. There was a select group of fans who gave him no credit at all. I was a fan of Hartley and while I was disppointed he was fired, I understood a change had to be made. I think his early success in Atlanta proves he is a viable coach, some of his detractors would have to at least admit that.

Granato on the other hand was hired with no coaching experience and than he turns around and hires an assistant with less experience than him. The Avs inevitably were going to turn around, no matter who was the coach during the point of Hartley's firing imo. That's a natural reaction and Granato made one key move of placing Forsberg at center due to the injury of Sakic and the AMP line was born. Granato's real coaching began in the playoffs and began this October. Granato has the confidence of the organization, and that's obvious due to some of the trades that have been made since Granato took over as coach. However, this hockey season is looked upon differently than seasons in the past because of the murky future of the league. Hartley was fired a week before Christmas with the team two games above .500. I personally believe this is the team's last season as a legitimate contenders and deep down I believe the organization feels the same. Granato's leash may be shorter than most coaches in different NHL seasons. Yes, the Avalanche have injuries, but so do alot of other NHL teams. Look at the St Louis Blues and what they have done this season.

Hartley deserved some of the criticism he received, but lets also remember the team never lost in the first round of the playoffs during his regime. The circumstances and players have changed, but as the team continues to be inconsistent (despite the injuries), the Avs wont be as vocal when it comes to supporting their neophyte coach. I admit to not being a fan of Granato and I still disagree with his hiring. I don't believe he willl coach this team to a Stanley Cup. However, having met the man off the ice, I want to comment on how personable he is and what a good man he seems to be. Make no mistake about it, this good man will be fired if the Avs continue to to play mediocre hockey. This is an unusual year with unusual circumstances. Any GM that believes his team will have a chance to win the Cup this season will take drastic measures because of the uncertain future of the league.

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11-05-2003, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nucks2001
I still don't think Granato was the right choice for coach. When you have a veteran team with a lot of stars (which increased over the summer), you need a veteran coach who has been there to keep them together.

Look at Detroit. The only real difference player wise between the team of 2 years ago and the team today is the loss of Fedorov but the addition of Hatcher and Whitney. Yeah, Hatcher is hurt but I think they will continue to struggle. The big difference of course is Scotty Bowman. No Bowman = no success in hockey town imo.

The Avs need to get a veteran coach of some sort. Who is out there right now.. maybe a Ted Nolan?
I don't think any GM is going to hire Ted Nolan. Remember when he came out while coach and disagreed with the GM, who was subsequently fired? GM's are tight group with a long memory....

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11-05-2003, 07:09 AM
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I've met Granato as well and he's a confident, very personable guy. I have a very hard time seeing Granato ever play a bad cop but that could be decieving.

The Granato hire I dissagreed with as well. It would only take one veteran to rebel and it would all go down hill. But no one should expect Robinson, Nolan etc... to come in and coach this team. If another coach were to be hired it would likely be Fixter. That's how Lacroix works.

I like that Granato had the fortitude to bench Selanne. I like the fact that Granato benched Aebischer when public pressure at the position would lean on some coaches to keep him in just to prove the organization was right about him. I'm estatic that Granato is rolling all four lines, despite their inexperience. That is a facet of Avalanche hockey we haven't seen in many, many years. It's a part of the game that will pay off down the road and make the first lines even more effective.

The difference at this time last year was that the Avalanche were losing a lot of close games and were having a very difficult time scoring goals. If the Avalanche can clean up play at their own end and solidify their defense then I think goals won't be an issue.

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11-05-2003, 07:34 AM
  #10
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Way to many things to factor in when comparing the first 12 games.

- Injuries have hit us hard to begin the season
- Plenty of new players on the team so it can take a while to get the chemistry we need
- No Roy, Aebi has to learn how to be the starting goalie of the team

I think aroudn December or January will be a good time to evaluate Granato's job but personally, up to this point I think he's done a great job. The past two games the Avs were down by 2 by Granato was able to get them back even and won the game in one of them.

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11-05-2003, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyIsALegend
It'd be nice if we took into consideration how healthy Bob Hartley's under-achieving squad was last year compared to Tony Granato's injury-ridden club this season.
I don't think that's all that relevant honestly. Hartley had three top-notch players in Forsberg, Hejduk, and Sakic and one in Tanguay that played in the top 6. Granato has had four top-notch players in Forsberg, Hejduk, Sakic, and Selanne with Tanguay looking like a real player finally and seeing top 6 time. Kariya is the only one of the bunch that has been truly injured for the bulk of the season. Forsberg has missed the last three, but like the point I was making before, the Avs were still a drastically inconsistent team with Forsberg in the line-up as well. The bottom 6 is basically equal because Hartley had jack all to play in the bottom 6 and Granato, due to injuries, has a similar jack all line-up down there.

Until Foote going down last night, the bluelines were basically healthy as well. At the end of the day, Granato still has had one more top-notch forward in this league to rely on that Hartley didn't. Hartley didn't have a Liles or even a Slovak to plug into the defense last year. He had DJ Smith. Remember? Of course there is the goaltending difference, but through the first 12 games last year, Roy wasn't good at all either. Roy is a monumentally better player than Aebischer or Sauve, but let's not forget he was crappy, along with everyone else, to start the year last year.

This year's Avs line-up has been upgraded and to suggest that an injury to Kariya combined with a lot of injuries to bottom 6 checkers and grinders excuses the Avs record is silly. It sure is hard to win when you have Sakic, Forsberg, Selanne, and Hejduk (and Tanguay has been better than all of them, but he's not a proven name just yet) in your line-up huh? (I know it's gone, but it sure is deserved). The Blues were playing their 12th defenseman as a #6; the Kings were missing Allison, Deadmarsh, Norstrom, and Miller among others. Yet, the Blues are the second best team in the West and the Kings are .500 after 10 games with decidedly less offensive talent remaining on their roster than the Avs have. So, excuse me if I don't buy into the injury garbage. The Avs have enough talent playing every night they should be a much better team than they are, injuries or no. Other teams (other more hard-working teams I should say) can get by with numerous injuries and having more key players down; so, why can't the Avs?

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11-05-2003, 11:20 AM
  #12
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Originally Posted by Laperriere22
so, why can't the Avs?

That sir, is the sixtyfour million dollar question that I've tried to answer for years. It is, I have come to believe, a matter of determination and pros who know the regular season doesn't mean all that much to start off with. They spotted Vancouver multiple games, and Abby lost four straight when they had a chance to tie up in the division and still squeaked off with the division title. The core of this team doesn't come to play until the second half and never has. Except in the one instance when they went out to prove they were, with Ray Bourque, the best team in hockey. There is too much skill, to me it is simply a matter of being willing to pay the price, they aren't because the first two months of the season won't win you a Cup. It's frustrating as hell, but it happens every damn season. If it was once in a while I could see it as an aberration. But every year? To many of the big namers are mailin it in. When Forsberg clicks, his line clicks and they usually win. I don't care if you have Sean Donovan on a line with Selanne and Sakic, there is no reason whatsoever that they couldn't be able to carry the team. But Selanne hasn't and Joe hasn't either.

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