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Stars need to spice things up, my offers:

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Old
11-04-2003, 09:18 PM
  #1
Ajacied
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Stars need to spice things up, my offers:

Kinda like the another Barnes deal..

^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*

To the Sharks ... : Manny Malhotra and Columbus' 2nd round pick.

To the Stars ..... : Mike Ricci

The Stars aquire that gritty, emotional two-way center. He might have lost a step over the years but his tank isn't empty yet. A chance of scenery might even improve and spark his game a little. He is a pending UFA so hence the lowe trade value he's recieving. Malhotra, at 23, I feel could and should still develop into a Ricci, Marchant combo.. maybe not as effective but a simular 3rd line two-way center. They also recieve the closest thing to a first round pick in Columbus 2nd, previously aquired in the Sydor deal. Seems like a good package for a team in rebuilding proces, they get a potential replacement and a relatively high pick.

^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*

To the Leafs .... : Manny Malhotra, Stephane Robidas and a 4th round pick.

To the Stars .... : Darcy Tucker

Manny's story is explained above. Stephane Robidas, aka Robocop, is a fan favorite in Dallas so it's hard parting with him, however, and with Daley coming up and Erskine maintainting himself as a rugged low paring defenseman, we could deal one of them. Robo is 5'11 but has some huge cojones, he often sparks the team by sacraficing his body to make a play or by fighting oppenents that are bigger then him. He's also steady and has a good offensive game, no holes, just not very spectacular at the offensive end. It gives the Leafs more depth on Defense as Robo would be a definite upgrade over Mush and form a nice pair with Klee.

^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*

New lines:

Pierre Turgeon - Mike Modano - Scott Young
Brenden Morrow - Jason Arnott - Bill Guerin
Antti Miettinen - Niko Kapanen - Jere Lehtinen
Steve Ott/DiMaio - Ricci/Tucker - Stu Barnes

Sergei Zubov - Teppo Numminen
Richard Matvichuk - Philippe Boucher
John Erskine - Trevor Daley

That has the Stars rotating a quality 4th line and gives them the insurance of a quality player moving up when a top 6 forwards goes down. As in the current shape, the Stars have not adjusted to Lehtinen's injury as fast as they should've.

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11-04-2003, 09:22 PM
  #2
Ensane
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The first deal SJ would be all over ... the Stars are overpaying a bit, but that might be what it takes to get a warrior like Ricci if bidding hits its peak.

The second deal might be ok valuewise, but I don't think that Toronto would have any interest because it leaves a bit of a hole where Tucker normally resides.

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11-04-2003, 09:25 PM
  #3
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Tucker and Ricci would be nice, but Stars are very tough up front to begin with, collection of Guerin, Arnott and Morrow are very nice. There might be a need for more toughness on the third and fourth line. However, my personal opinion is that as Sydor indicated earlier in an interview, that the Stars are really missing the toughess that Hatcher provided fron the back end, so i will guess that getting a physical defenceman is higher priority than a physical third line centerman.

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11-04-2003, 09:28 PM
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If I were Dallas, I'd much rather talk to Carolina about getting Bob Boughner cheap. Adding a guy like Mike Ricci to your fourth line is a waste, and I personally don't see anything wrong with having Robbie Dimaio playing regularly.

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11-04-2003, 09:30 PM
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no from toronto's pov imo.. robidas is just another bottom pairing guy, plain and simple.. value is there, but i'd just rather hold on to tucker if that is the package of stuff that is to be had

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11-04-2003, 09:34 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyIsALegend
If I were Dallas, I'd much rather talk to Carolina about getting Bob Boughner cheap. Adding a guy like Mike Ricci to your fourth line is a waste, and I personally don't see anything wrong with having Robbie Dimaio playing regularly.
Not at all.. I just feel that the Stars need to put together a reliable and emotional 4th line which could be essential for one's playoff run or to get a team rolling again. The Stars have the players to build an impressive one on paper but so far neither has really clicked. And such a trade would also give the Stars more insurance, when a top 6 forward, in this case Lehtinen, goes out, others could fill in with relative ease, knowing they have the depth to do so.

Boughner would be nice, but Erskine has played pretty dependable so far, I don't think a physical defenseman is what we need with 50% of our d-corps loving to throw their body around already.

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11-04-2003, 09:36 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVP
Tucker and Ricci would be nice, but Stars are very tough up front to begin with, collection of Guerin, Arnott and Morrow are very nice. There might be a need for more toughness on the third and fourth line. However, my personal opinion is that as Sydor indicated earlier in an interview, that the Stars are really missing the toughess that Hatcher provided fron the back end, so i will guess that getting a physical defenceman is higher priority than a physical third line centerman.
Guys like Denis Gauthier on d and Mike Ricci as a third line center would help for sure......Turgeon is a waste of money, and the Stars know it..

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11-04-2003, 09:40 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOMO_ROCKS
Guys like Denis Gauthier on d and Mike Ricci as a third line center would help for sure......Turgeon is a waste of money, and the Stars know it..
Overpaid yes.. but Turgeon has been among our best forwards so far..

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11-04-2003, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
Overpaid yes.. but Turgeon has been among our best forwards so far..
i agree with that

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11-05-2003, 04:50 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane
The first deal SJ would be all over ... the Stars are overpaying a bit, but that might be what it takes to get a warrior like Ricci if bidding hits its peak.
I disagree, I think you'll see the Sharks get a premium for Ricci come the trade deadline. They'll have minimum 5 teams bidding on his services for a long playoff run.

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11-05-2003, 04:56 AM
  #11
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disagree strongly, why are the sharks going to trade a great leader and solid checking center for a rangers castoff and a pick ?
Then again dallas myopia might see this as actually fair (not)

That offer ain't happening any time soon. IF the sharks are going to deal ricci (which I am not convinced they are) then they can wait until the trade deadline and attempt to extract further value from a playoff team in need of great team guy with tons of experience in Ricci.
Sending him to dallas is probably the last thing san jose has in mind. Or if they did would require a much better offer. Perhaps Ott or other youngster with upside and the pick.

The second deal, Why is TO going to trade Tucker who is rumored everywhere on this board for manny and robidas ? puhlease. Like Tucker or not he can put the biscuit in the basket when needed, which is something manny in his career hasn't done consistently. Robidas has little or no value since most teams already have puck carrying defensemen who don't take the body. So TO trades an agitator with some skill for a checker and poke checking defensemen ? Ouch

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11-05-2003, 05:50 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
Kinda like the another Barnes deal..

^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*

To the Sharks ... : Manny Malhotra and Columbus' 2nd round pick.

To the Stars ..... : Mike Ricci

The Stars aquire that gritty, emotional two-way center. He might have lost a step over the years but his tank isn't empty yet. A chance of scenery might even improve and spark his game a little. He is a pending UFA so hence the lowe trade value he's recieving. Malhotra, at 23, I feel could and should still develop into a Ricci, Marchant combo.. maybe not as effective but a simular 3rd line two-way center. They also recieve the closest thing to a first round pick in Columbus 2nd, previously aquired in the Sydor deal. Seems like a good package for a team in rebuilding proces, they get a potential replacement and a relatively high pick.
While the offer is good the likelyhood of a deal between SJ and Dallas is remote. There is too much bad blood between these organizations. The other factor is that Ricci is on the roster for his "leadership" skills. If SJ deals him now and not at the trade deadline (which is most likely going to happen) the fans would continue to show their disdain for the organization and attendence will continue to erode. Right now the Sharks ownership group is realing from the 15% drop in attendence in that they seriously underestimated the fan response of not filling Selanne and Nolan's skates.

CHomp, CHomp (this is what we did before Avatars)

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11-05-2003, 06:06 AM
  #13
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What the hell would anyone want with Manny Malhotra?

The deals are pretty fair, but you would have to replace Malhotra with something worth trading for.

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11-05-2003, 07:20 AM
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I think you are overpaying for Darcy Tucker.

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11-05-2003, 08:49 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donpaulo
Robidas has little or no value since most teams already have puck carrying defensemen who don't take the body. So TO trades an agitator with some skill for a checker and poke checking defensemen ? Ouch
You can perfectly disagree, I have no problem with that. But you are grossly missinformed about Robocop. At least read the reasoning behind the trade, then you would also know that Robo is actually a very physical player, arguably among the best for his rather small frame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark Attack
There is too much bad blood between these organizations.
Disagree, there used to be a rivalry but those were mainly cost due to 5 specific players, being Derian Hatcher, Richard Matvichuk, Bryan Marchment, Owen Nolan and Gary Suter. 4 Of those are gone. Furthermore, the teams also hated eachother since both were deemed as the top two teams in the Pacific and had hard fought battle's between them. Now with the Sharks looking more and more like a lotterly team (no offense, though I can't say much with the Stars sucking balls) and the Stars supposed to contend, I really can't find that bad blood you are speaking of. It used to, but it faded away since this rivaly was caused by players, not based on playoff elimination or something like that which takes forever. Hell, in fact, I even like the Sharks. That, and the Stars have inquired about Selanne ever since he was put on the block by Guppies management. You do not inquire about players from a much hated rival.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo
What the hell would anyone want with Manny Malhotra?

The deals are pretty fair, but you would have to replace Malhotra with something worth trading for.
So the deals are fair, yet Manny would have to be replaced since no one wants him anyway? Don't see much sence into that logic.

There's been a huge misconception about Manny Malhotra. First he enters the NHL way too early due to poor Rangers management, this has chased him for his entire career and has been labeled a bust since. This, while in fact, offensive predictions for our Manny have always been way too high to begin with, Manny is not a scorer, he never was. Yet fans kept prasing him as the next Mark Messier, the complete center of the next era. Hell yeah he's gonna dissapoint with such projections.

In 2001/2002 he gets dealt to Dallas for a rather expensive price, this alone should give you a little grasp on his value. He got a fine prospect, by some called a blue chipper in Roman Lyashenko as a return, a potential Selke competitant. Unfortunatly, as you might know, things worked out entirely differently for Roman but that's a different topic. He also got paired with Martin Rucinsky to form a pretty decent package for a supposed cast off.

You probably assume Manny hasn't changed nor progressed since he's been rather quiet, but actually, Manny has been pretty impressive for the minutes he's getting. Playing a fast paced two-way game, physical, with a good shot, he has definitely shown promesing flashes but inconsistency prevented his permanent breakthrough. Still, pretty damn difficult being inconsistant when you never know when you will play and you know that you do not stand a chance outperforming any of the centers (Modano, Turgeon, Arnott, Barnes, Kapanen). And everytime the Stars are coming off a game which included Manny, fans start to question who should be dropped in favor of him, but everytime they come up with no answers. DiMaio? A fan favorite, the pitbull that scores clutch goals? Antti Miettinen? The Stars top youngster who fits in perfectly with Jere and Niko? Stu Barnes? The early league leader in goals? And don't even dare to mention Ott. Then, if that isn't enough, Manny also often gets the 2nd nod behind Aaron Downey who's intimidation comes in handy playing the teams that often dresses goons. And Downey keeps making it more difficult by actually playing decent..

Manny is only 23 and he definitely has an interesting future in the NHL. Not as the offensive wizard, nor as a defensive specialist, but as an effective 3rd line two-way center. He could center most team's 3rd line already, in fact. I hope that Manny's role on the team will be increased once the Turgeon's, Young's and DiMaio's retire and maintain himself as a regular while slowly working his way up to his eventual upside, and fit somewhere into the category Marchant, Ricci, Peca, Madden.. I definitely feel he will have a brighter career as Niko Kapanen, hell maybe he's already as good *right now*, only if given the same oppertunities rather then awaiting his chances. But with Niko having some crazy chemestry with Antti and Jere, he's a definite keeper and few players in the NHL could take away his position and role on the team.

The Stars should be happy they have Manny as an healthy scratch, but the deadline to make his permanent breakthough is nearing and waiting longer could interfere with his progression. Trade him or make some room for him, that's what manny is currently facing.

You can label him anything you want, whatever, just make sure you know his history and his situation on the team before dooming him as a "cast off". He's 23 for God's sake and you have not watched him develop on the Stars like he has with the Rags. You look no further then his draft position and the team that drafted him. It's hard projection what he should be if he had been a regular last season (and for the current season), but I think a Vasicek, a Chubarov, a Kapanen, a Cajanek would not be far removed, and even then, he's still younger then all of them.

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11-05-2003, 09:14 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
There's been a huge misconception about Manny Malhotra. First he enters the NHL way too early due to poor Rangers management, this has chased him for his entire career and has been labeled a bust since. This, while in fact, offensive predictions for our Manny have always been way too high to begin with, Manny is not a scorer, he never was. Yet fans kept prasing him as the next Mark Messier, the complete center of the next era. Hell yeah he's gonna dissapoint with such projections.

In 2001/2002 he gets dealt to Dallas for a rather expensive price, this alone should give you a little grasp on his value. He got a fine prospect, by some called a blue chipper in Roman Lyashenko as a return, a potential Selke competitant. Unfortunatly, as you might know, things worked out entirely differently for Roman but that's a different topic. He also got paired with Martin Rucinsky to form a pretty decent package for a supposed cast off.

You probably assume Manny hasn't changed nor progressed since he's been rather quiet, but actually, Manny has been pretty impressive for the minutes he's getting. Playing a fast paced two-way game, physical, with a good shot, he has definitely shown promesing flashes but inconsistency prevented his permanent breakthrough. Still, pretty damn difficult being inconsistant when you never know when you will play and you know that you do not stand a chance outperforming any of the centers (Modano, Turgeon, Arnott, Barnes, Kapanen). And everytime the Stars are coming off a game which included Manny, fans start to question who should be dropped in favor of him, but everytime they come up with no answers. DiMaio? A fan favorite, the pitbull that scores clutch goals? Antti Miettinen? The Stars top youngster who fits in perfectly with Jere and Niko? Stu Barnes? The early league leader in goals? And don't even dare to mention Ott. Then, if that isn't enough, Manny also often gets the 2nd nod behind Aaron Downey who's intimidation comes in handy playing the teams that often dresses goons. And Downey keeps making it more difficult by actually playing decent..

Manny is only 23 and he definitely has an interesting future in the NHL. Not as the offensive wizard, nor as a defensive specialist, but as an effective 3rd line two-way center. He could center most team's 3rd line already, in fact. I hope that Manny's role on the team will be increased once the Turgeon's, Young's and DiMaio's retire and maintain himself as a regular while slowly working his way up to his eventual upside, and fit somewhere into the category Marchant, Ricci, Peca, Madden.. I definitely feel he will have a brighter career as Niko Kapanen, hell maybe he's already as good *right now*, only if given the same oppertunities rather then awaiting his chances. But with Niko having some crazy chemestry with Antti and Jere, he's a definite keeper and few players in the NHL could take away his position and role on the team.

The Stars should be happy they have Manny as an healthy scratch, but the deadline to make his permanent breakthough is nearing and waiting longer could interfere with his progression. Trade him or make some room for him, that's what manny is currently facing.

You can label him anything you want, whatever, just make sure you know his history and his situation on the team before dooming him as a "cast off". He's 23 for God's sake and you have not watched him develop on the Stars like he has with the Rags. You look no further then his draft position and the team that drafted him. It's hard projection what he should be if he had been a regular last season (and for the current season), but I think a Vasicek, a Chubarov, a Kapanen, a Cajanek would not be far removed, and even then, he's still younger then all of them.
I agree and disagree with you about Manny.

Yeah he came into the league way too early and with outrageous offensive expectations (Neil Smith believing he would be a 25+ goal scorer when Manny had never reached 20 in juniors). However, Manny never became never even demonstrated the defensive game he was supposed to have either. He was never going to be the next Mark Messier. But he was supposed to be the next Guy Carbonneau or Craig Ludwig. Manny never used his size or speed effectively.

It's one thing to come into the league with outrageous expectations. However, players have reinvented themselves. Bobby Carpenter went from being a 50 goal scorer to becoming one of the better defensive forwards in the league. Ronald Petrovicky was a goal scoring machine in juniors. In the pros he has reinvented himself as a gritty role playeer/agitator. Manny has not done any of that. Yeah he's only 23 but he's been in the league five years.

Manny needs to demonstrate that he can contribute to a team. He was lost on the Rangers and really was hurt by the lack of a system. However, he has been equally lost in Dallas playing with excellent players and under a good coach. With that said, I do think that you are overvaluing him a bit. Manny has been around long enough where he can be judged on his body of work not his potential. It's too bad. He is/was a great kid. He just has not found a way to make a place for himself.

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11-05-2003, 09:23 AM
  #17
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IMO, Manny really is a great player. He has size and gritt, but speed too. He can pass but he can shoot very good as well. Plus, he sees the ice very well.

I understand why you think he's a bit overrated, but my guess is he's a bit frustrated. First, he plays for the Rag$. Well, of course, that didn't help him much. Now he's in the Stars' system with great players in front of him, like Kapanen, Ott and Mietinnen. It looks like every spot in the Stars' roster is filled...

I bet that if you trade him to a team, who needs a 3rd/4th liner, he's your man. Playing in the NHL will develope his skills even more, cuz he plays with the big boys. However, he'll reach the same potential if he stays with the Stars. Once some of the Stars are too old or get scratched (like DiMaio, Turgeon, Young and Barnes), he'll get his spot and develop like he should.

Cheers

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11-05-2003, 09:35 AM
  #18
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Malhotra's trade value is at an all-time low. At best you would be getting a late 2nd round pick, and more likely a 3rd or 4th round selection in return for Malhotra.

He's 23 and his upside is that of a 3rd line center. It would be different if he had first or second line upside, than he would be more worth a gamble.

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11-05-2003, 11:49 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Modano
IMO, Manny really is a great player. He has size and gritt, but speed too. He can pass but he can shoot very good as well. Plus, he sees the ice very well.

I understand why you think he's a bit overrated, but my guess is he's a bit frustrated. First, he plays for the Rag$. Well, of course, that didn't help him much. Now he's in the Stars' system with great players in front of him, like Kapanen, Ott and Mietinnen. It looks like every spot in the Stars' roster is filled...

I bet that if you trade him to a team, who needs a 3rd/4th liner, he's your man. Playing in the NHL will develope his skills even more, cuz he plays with the big boys. However, he'll reach the same potential if he stays with the Stars. Once some of the Stars are too old or get scratched (like DiMaio, Turgeon, Young and Barnes), he'll get his spot and develop like he should.

Cheers

Come on. Manny is not a great player. He might be able to shoot pass and see the ice well but he does none of those.

The fact that he played for the Rangers is no longer an excuse (not that I really understand that as an excuse in the first place). He's been in Dallas for over a season now. If Manny had the skills that you have given him there is no way that he would be playing behind a player like Rob DiMaio.

If Manny Malhotra was the player that you describe him to be why on Earth would you want to trade him?

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11-05-2003, 12:01 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
Come on. Manny is not a great player. He might be able to shoot pass and see the ice well but he does none of those.

The fact that he played for the Rangers is no longer an excuse (not that I really understand that as an excuse in the first place). He's been in Dallas for over a season now. If Manny had the skills that you have given him there is no way that he would be playing behind a player like Rob DiMaio.

If Manny Malhotra was the player that you describe him to be why on Earth would you want to trade him?
Don't judge Manny on him being a healthy scratch, it takes a whole lot more then Manny to bounce DiMaio out of the starting line-up, he's that important.

And no one wants to trade Malhotra with urge, just with him being young and having a solid upside, his value could get us immidiate help that would be a definite upgrade right now, and not 3 years from now.

Seems to me Manny has developed into a totally different player since playing down in Texas. As he does all the things extremely well that you say he can't.

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11-05-2003, 12:17 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Modano = God
Don't judge Manny on him being a healthy scratch, it takes a whole lot more then Manny to bounce DiMaio out of the starting line-up, he's that important.

And no one wants to trade Malhotra with urge, just with him being young and having a solid upside, his value could get us immidiate help that would be a definite upgrade right now, and not 3 years from now.

Seems to me Manny has developed into a totally different player since playing down in Texas. As he does all the things extremely well that you say he can't.

If Manny is such a great passer, shooter, seeer of the ice and defensive player explain how, in 80 games with Dallas, he has 4 goals, 7 assists for 11 points and is a -6. All this on a team that had the second best record in the league.

But, playing for the Rangers, in 206 games, he scored 19 goals, 22 assists for 31 points and was -19.

If you tripled Mannys numbers with Dallas he would be

240, 12, 21, 33, -18.

How is he an any better player with Dallas than he was with the Rangers?

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11-05-2003, 12:22 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
Seems to me Manny has developed into a totally different player since playing down in Texas. As he does all the things extremely well that you say he can't.
Nope.. Sounds like he's the exact same player the way us Ranger fans talked about him in the same way.. Total fan fav, some good tools (speed, size), and a class act as well..

Sure, he's still young, and could still develop into that 3rd liner defensive stopper (as Muckler was chastised for suggesting), but the same logic applies as when he was with the Rangers and unable to crack a regular spot.. Which mean he has little to no trade value..

Dallas sent Lyashenko (who was NOT a blue chipper, just a different, less gritty but more skilled version of Manny) and Ruchinsky for Manny and Heisten. When Martin Ruchinsky is the best player in a 4 player deal, the others obviously don't hold much value..

And you can say anything about Dimaio, or whoever dresses ahead of Manny, but until he FORCES his way into the lineup above them, he will still not have much trade value..

He's a great kid, he's just not going to bring much in return (as Ranger fans have witnessed first hand)

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11-05-2003, 12:29 PM
  #23
Ajacied
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
How is he an any better player with Dallas than he was with the Rangers?
By accepting his role as a 3rd line center rather then enforce it and think he can be more due to the Rangers media and fans.

Manny isn't a regular, Manny has a boat load of competition and it's hard playing every game as good as you'd wish when you have the incertainty whether you've impressed the coach or not, whether you will be in the line-up the next game. Awaiting for someone on the team in front of you to go down with an injury to grab your chance. Not exactly the perfect situation to develop your further attributes and skills and not exactly the best food for your morale. Yet everytime he did well, everytime he impressed the coach and the fans.

That and Manny is 2 years older, he has matured and developed his game around the edges. With more time and seasoning, Manny will develop into a nice 3rd line two-way center, that's my opinion on the kid ever since his arrival and he hasn't let me down one bit.

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11-05-2003, 12:37 PM
  #24
Coffey77
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I like the Ricci for Malhotra and 2nd rounder deal. Dont know if Dallas really needs to make a deal like that though. they are crazy deep at forward as it is.

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11-05-2003, 01:21 PM
  #25
Enoch
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I disagree, I think you'll see the Sharks get a premium for Ricci come the trade deadline. They'll have minimum 5 teams bidding on his services for a long playoff run.
Still, its very good value, especially if Columbus bottoms out.

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