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Old
05-29-2006, 08:46 PM
  #1
King'sPawn
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I'm Lost

Okay, bear with me. I'm going to try to make this short, but I am completely, utterly lost. I'm trying to find the way some Kings fans want.

Did we seriously JUST see the Kings fire one coach who had been coaching this team for... what, 7 seasons? We fired him after the team imploded, the special teams stunk, and morale in the locker room was down?

Did we then bring in a new coach, try to run things differently, still have morale problems, miss the playoffs AGAIN, and subsequently fire that new coach?

And now that it's the offseason, while we were calling for change, improvements, etc... we have people completely changing their mind.

WHY do people still want to keep Avery, when Lombardi has gone on record saying that he was part of the problem?

WHY do people want to keep Miller, hoping that he gets healthy when he has FAILED to do so time and time again, only playing 60+ games in a season THREE times since 95/96?

WHY do people want to trade, of all our defenseman, Visnovsky, who's our best defenseman and 2nd cheapest after Gleason?

We saw a team implode. People want to keep problem players on the team even though they know there's a morale problem... and people want to keep injury prone players when we've had this problem for the past several seasons. And to top it all off, we want to trade away our BETTER players who have played well for the team and stayed relatively healthy?

How do you guys HONESTLY expect the team to improve? We saw two totally different coaches run this team, neither of which were able to generate much heart from them when we needed them to. Do you think Crawford, another different coach, will suddenly make things better? Why did we bring in Lombardi, who, by his own definition, is a "builder" if we didn't want to build upon what little good we had with the team?

People are even willing to take back Jeremy "60%" Roenick for $1.5 million or less.

Is it just me, or do others find this entire offseason maddening?

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05-29-2006, 08:53 PM
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devilinto
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You know what. You are right. The team failed again last year. Some of these guys have got to feel the axe.


Is there no way to release players? Even if u are willing to take a bit of a hit?


They need to make some Moves.

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05-29-2006, 09:39 PM
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Reaper45
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Bravo!

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05-29-2006, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
WHY do people still want to keep Avery, when Lombardi has gone on record saying that he was part of the problem?
He is a good player if he can keep his mouth shut. Lombardi said that he was impressed by his play and it would be up to Crawford to keep Avery or not.

Quote:
WHY do people want to keep Miller, hoping that he gets healthy when he has FAILED to do so time and time again, only playing 60+ games in a season THREE times since 95/96?
Aaron Miller---------------------------------$2.47 million
We are stuck with him

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05-29-2006, 10:09 PM
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kingsfan25
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I can't say that I disagree with most of what you say...except for the Avery part...he can be a valuable player and it's not like he was the predominant problem. Everyone was adversely affected by the circumstances this season...Avery's volatile personality made his reactions more noticeable...you improve the situation, maybe you don't see so much negativity from him...add to that the fact that he's admitted he needs to make more of an effort to control himself and I'm not opposed to giving him a second shot.

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05-29-2006, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan25
I can't say that I disagree with most of what you say...except for the Avery part...he can be a valuable player and it's not like he was the predominant problem. Everyone was adversely affected by the circumstances this season...Avery's volatile personality made his reactions more noticeable...you improve the situation, maybe you don't see so much negativity from him...add to that the fact that he's admitted he needs to make more of an effort to control himself and I'm not opposed to giving him a second shot.

I agree with kingsfan25.....Avery might have been part of the problem....but only 5%....if that. There were alot bigger problems with this team than Avery....if anything he was one of the only good players out there when everyone else was a pile of ****.

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05-29-2006, 10:22 PM
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Roenick and Avery should only be taken back on the condition that they keep their yapping to the ice and directed at the other team. Roenick gets paid 1mil, Avery gets .75 mil. That seems okay to me.

Miller has to leave. Just send him down to Manchester and bring up Petiot. Hopefully that convinces him to retire. If not, we take the $2.46 million hit and play Petiot anyway. Miller has to know his time is up. Only twice out of 10 full seasons has to played over 70 games. He must know this and realize its time to move on for him.

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05-29-2006, 11:54 PM
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Josh Deitell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Jones
Miller has to leave. Just send him down to Manchester and bring up Petiot. Hopefully that convinces him to retire. If not, we take the $2.46 million hit and play Petiot anyway. Miller has to know his time is up. Only twice out of 10 full seasons has to played over 70 games. He must know this and realize its time to move on for him.
Pavel Bure's first 9 seasons: 75 games only 3 times
Pavel Bure's 10th season: 82 games and 92 points

Give the guy a break, he was playing injured nearly all season. If the new coach knows how to deal with injured players better than AM did he'll be fine.

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05-29-2006, 11:57 PM
  #9
Reaper45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaelWho
Pavel Bure's first 9 seasons: 75 games only 3 times
Pavel Bure's 10th season: 82 games and 92 points

Give the guy a break, he was playing injured nearly all season. If the new coach knows how to deal with injured players better than AM did he'll be fine.
You arent seriously trying to compare Aaron Miller and Pavel Bure....

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05-29-2006, 11:58 PM
  #10
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It's no wonder that you're so confused, Kings'Pawn.

First of all, your primary conclusion seems to be that the players were apparently all of the problem because an inexperienced coach, who was in over his head and not what the team needed, couldn't right the sinking ship that he inherited with only 12 games left. How can you tell that from so few games, and how are those 12 games anything compared to 6 seasons? Taking over as coach with 12 games left, when morale and the season are at their lowest and your assistant coaches are complete strangers, is completely different than taking over with a fresh training camp and season ahead of you, not to mentioned a carefully thought-out plan and assistants of your choosing. There's no comparison. I wish some people would quit linking the Torchetti and Crawford situations to try to prove their points.

Anyways, after making this conclusion that it was all the players' fault, you're having a kneejerk reaction by calling for a purge of the team. Any player who may've contributed in even the smallest amount to the disaster apparently needs to go. Basically, you're willing to give no one on the team the benefit of the doubt that a fresh year and a fresh coach will make a difference. To borrow your own words, I don't see how you can "HONESTLY expect the team to improve" when you're so eager to gut the team. Do you honestly think that Lombardi will find replacements for all 5 or 6 Kings players that you never want to see again? Players that some of us aren't happy with are going to still be on the Kings to start next season. We need to live with it. It's reality, which dumping and rebuilding overnight isn't. As you said, Lombardi is a builder. Building takes time.

BTW, no one here is suggesting that Visnovsky should be traded. Honestly, did you just make that up to help your point?

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05-29-2006, 11:59 PM
  #11
Reaper45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osprey
It's no wonder that you're so confused, Kings'Pawn.

First of all, your primary conclusion seems to be that the players were apparently all of the problem because an inexperienced coach, who was in over his head and not what the team needed, couldn't right the sinking ship that he inherited with only 12 games left. How can you tell that from so few games, and how are those 12 games anything compared to 6 seasons? Taking over as coach with 12 games left, when morale and the season are at their lowest and your assistant coaches are complete strangers, is completely different than taking over with a fresh training camp and season ahead of you, not to mentioned a carefully thought-out plan and assistants of your choosing. There's no comparison. I wish some people would quit linking the Torchetti and Crawford situations to try to prove their points.

Anyways, after making this conclusion that it was all the players' fault, you're having a kneejerk reaction by calling for a purge of the team. Any player who may've contributed in even the smallest amount to the disaster apparently needs to go. Basically, you're willing to give no one on the team the benefit of the doubt that a fresh year and a fresh coach will make a difference. To borrow your own words, I don't see how you can "HONESTLY expect the team to improve" when you're so eager to gut the team. Do you honestly think that Lombardi will find replacements for all 5 or 6 Kings players that you never want to see again? Players that some of us aren't happy with are going to still be on the Kings to start next season. We need to live with it. It's reality, which dumping and rebuilding overnight isn't. As you said, Lombardi is a builder. Building takes time.

BTW, no one here is suggesting that Visnovsky should be traded. Honestly, did you just make that up to help your point?
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=255643

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Old
05-30-2006, 12:11 AM
  #12
Josh Deitell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45
You arent seriously trying to compare Aaron Miller and Pavel Bure....
No way! Not in that sense. I'm saying that players can be injured and still be useful after, that's all.

Would Ray Bourque be a better comparison? Maybe Gretzky?

Nick Boynton got hurt and had a pretty decent year, so anything's possible. Give Miller the benefit of the doubt and know that Lombardi and Crawford will make the right decisions is all I'm saying.

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05-30-2006, 12:19 AM
  #13
Reaper45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaelWho
No way! Not in that sense. I'm saying that players can be injured and still be useful after, that's all.

Would Ray Bourque be a better comparison? Maybe Gretzky?

Nick Boynton got hurt and had a pretty decent year, so anything's possible. Give Miller the benefit of the doubt and know that Lombardi and Crawford will make the right decisions is all I'm saying.
But all of those players had awesome careers so you'd be willing to stick with them through their injuries. Aaron Miller is a journeyman defenseman at best.

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05-30-2006, 12:30 AM
  #14
Josh Deitell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45
But all of those players had awesome careers so you'd be willing to stick with them through their injuries. Aaron Miller is a journeyman defenseman at best.
I don't agree with that. When healthy, he's at the level of guys like Commodore and Schultz.

The problem is, he's rarely healthy. I'm hoping Crawford will wait until he's 100% to play him.

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Old
05-30-2006, 12:44 AM
  #15
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very good post though I still think we should re-sign Bure. Is that ok?

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Old
05-30-2006, 02:07 AM
  #16
King'sPawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osprey
It's no wonder that you're so confused, Kings'Pawn.

First of all, your primary conclusion seems to be that the players were apparently all of the problem because an inexperienced coach, who was in over his head and not what the team needed, couldn't right the sinking ship that he inherited with only 12 games left. How can you tell that from so few games, and how are those 12 games anything compared to 6 seasons? Taking over as coach with 12 games left, when morale and the season are at their lowest and your assistant coaches are complete strangers, is completely different than taking over with a fresh training camp and season ahead of you, not to mentioned a carefully thought-out plan and assistants of your choosing. There's no comparison. I wish some people would quit linking the Torchetti and Crawford situations to try to prove their points.
I'm coming to the conclusion that a team under one coach tanks, still doesn't have the heart under a new coach... and a new GM is brought in to build and figure out what went wrong, and decided Torchetti wasn't the answer anyways, to get a new coach. And Lombardi, after interviewing the team, found out there was something wrong.

So, he comes to a conclusion after interviewing the player that something went wrong... and he didn't think Torchetti was the answer. Am I off in thinking that a) the coaching was part of the problem and b) the players were part of the problem?

Why is it that we're willing to get rid of coaches that are a problem with the team, but when we find out players that are wrong with the team, we get nostalgic and want to keep them?

Quote:
Anyways, after making this conclusion that it was all the players' fault, you're having a kneejerk reaction by calling for a purge of the team. Any player who may've contributed in even the smallest amount to the disaster apparently needs to go. Basically, you're willing to give no one on the team the benefit of the doubt that a fresh year and a fresh coach will make a difference. To borrow your own words, I don't see how you can "HONESTLY expect the team to improve" when you're so eager to gut the team. Do you honestly think that Lombardi will find replacements for all 5 or 6 Kings players that you never want to see again? Players that some of us aren't happy with are going to still be on the Kings to start next season. We need to live with it. It's reality, which dumping and rebuilding overnight isn't. As you said, Lombardi is a builder. Building takes time.
Who's calling for a purge? I'm saying that particular players, whose long term and short term benefits to the team, are outweighed by their removal. Every team that wants to improve in the offseason, particularly those that didn't make the playoffs, need to make these decisions.

As for benefit of the doubt... yeah, screw it. I gave Miller two seasons, including a lockout season of rest, for the benefit of the doubt. I put up with Roenick's "skate" excuse then his "I worked only 60% of the time" BS. I put up with Avery's on-ice antics, off-ice sound bites, and reputation penalties for longer than a team should go through. If those players CANNOT be replaced, then we really are in trouble.

I acknowledge that building takes time. You may be comfortable having Frolov, Kopitar, Brown, Cammalleri, and Gleason watch Avery divide the team and Roenick half-*** it, but I'm not.

Quote:
BTW, no one here is suggesting that Visnovsky should be traded. Honestly, did you just make that up to help your point?
As Reaper pointed out, it's in the Trade Rumors thread.

But I'm curious, how do YOU propose we improve the team? Keep everyone, sign a BIG name free agent and hope they'll get their act together?

Quote:
very good post though I still think we should re-sign Bure. Is that ok?
While I'm going to sound hypocritical, I don't disagree. Bure would be an acceptable signing by me. For one, he actually had several seasons in a row of having complete seasons, even though it's been a few years. But for another, we have offensive depth with our Manchester affiliate to make the call-up if he gets hurt again. If Miller gets hurt again, our only line of defense is Petiot and possibly Harrold. If Bure gets hurt, we have a few young players, such as Tukonen and Pushkarev, who could fill in some time on the top six role.

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05-30-2006, 02:14 AM
  #17
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Originally Posted by Reaper45
Ok, so one or two people have suggested it. KP, however, wove it into an argument against a far wider audience, as if suggesting that the great many people who are open to keeping some of the problem players are also the ones who want to get rid of the stars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45
But all of those players had awesome careers so you'd be willing to stick with them through their injuries. Aaron Miller is a journeyman defenseman at best.
That's just absurd, Reap. You can't honestly believe that and should know better than that. Yes, he's injured a lot and his value is lowered a lot by it, but you can't deny that he's a very good defenseman when healthy (the last few months, notwithstanding, even though he could be considered injured).

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05-30-2006, 02:28 AM
  #18
King'sPawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osprey
Ok, so one or two people have suggested it. KP, however, wove it into an argument against a far wider audience, as if suggesting that the great many people who are open to keeping some of the problem players are also the ones who want to get rid of the stars.
I'm using it to illustrate how maddening this postseason/offseason has been by some of the remarks and ideas I've read on these boards. While trading Visnovsky is indicative of a small audience, it's still a reflection of people wanting to keep bad players and trading away good players. It's not JUST trading away Visnovsky that bothers me, as I can deal with notions that I disagree with on a case by case basis... but as a whole, I'm frustrated.

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05-30-2006, 03:23 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn
But I'm curious, how do YOU propose we improve the team? Keep everyone, sign a BIG name free agent and hope they'll get their act together?
No, but a little re-assessment under a new season and a new set of coaches is not only smart, but necessary, practically speaking. Would you be willing to dump assets before they had a chance to play for Crawford, only to come to realize that maybe it was more the constrictiveness of the old coaching staff that led to a lot of the problems?

I'm actually not as far away from your line of thinking as it seems. Though we disagree on Miller, I'm not fond at all of Avery or Belanger, either. In the case of Belanger, though, he's worth keeping for ~$800K, as long as he's pegged for the 4th line. Ideally, he'd be replaced, but, realistically, he's still an asset who is probably better kept for the final year before free agency.

As for how I'd improve the team, I'm no more certain of what will spell success than any of us are, but the short answer is that I would re-sign the RFAs, trade Avery, let the UFAs walk and bring in a few good players. That's a good first step and off-season. Other tweaks can come during the season, once sufficient time for evaluation has elapsed and Lombardi has a better idea of what the team needs. Don't expect him to make massive changes before he's had a chance to view them firsthand.


Last edited by Osprey: 05-30-2006 at 03:42 AM.
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Old
05-30-2006, 10:31 AM
  #20
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Aaron Miller:
-Year--GMS
96-97 | 56
97-98 | 55
98-99 | 76
99-00 | 53
00-01 | 69
01-02 | 74
02-03 | 49
03-04 | 35
05-06 | 56
He has been injury-prone his entire career. How can someone look at that and think it'll be any different next year? The Kings have lost 300 mangames for three years in a row. We have to stop making that happen. And one way is to stop playing perpetually-injured players. Pay particular attention to the last three years, all for the Kings. And average of 47 games. Does anyone in their right mind think that he'll suddenly break out of that? Even in the off-chance that he might, he isn't worth the risk of taking up a roster spot.

Valeri Bure:
-Year--GMS
95-96 | 77
96-97 | 64
97-98 | 66
98-99 | 80
99-00 | 82
00-01 | 78
01-02 | 31
02-03 | 51
03-04 | 68
05-06 | 00
Same situation here. Why take the chance on wasting a roster spot on him, given the likely event of him being injured? Last 4 years: 37.5 games per. The Kings need to get away from oft-injured players if we ever want to stay healthy and make the playoffs. And he hasn't played in the NHL for two full years!


Don't give Lombardi any ideas.
Just say no to Aaron Miller.
Just say no to Valeri Bure.


Last edited by Mr_Jones*: 05-30-2006 at 11:59 AM.
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05-30-2006, 10:52 AM
  #21
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KP, well said and all your examples are showing themselves. It's Lost in translation. Some of these fans have their mind set and others have fallen in love with players. Love is blind and ignorance is bliss. Concur with your post. But as much as I hate to say it, differences in opinion are what makes this board work. Sometimes it's hard to read(main reason why I don't post too much anymore), but it's good to have.

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05-30-2006, 11:16 AM
  #22
Reaper45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osprey
That's just absurd, Reap. You can't honestly believe that and should know better than that. Yes, he's injured a lot and his value is lowered a lot by it, but you can't deny that he's a very good defenseman when healthy (the last few months, notwithstanding, even though he could be considered injured).
But it's not. Would you rather stick by and wait for Aaron Miller to be all healed, or would you rather stick by Ray Bourque and wait for him to be healed? He's had ample enough time to get better, and his skills aren't that great, (ala Bourque) to make me rationalize sticking by him for another season. It's time to head in another direction.

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05-30-2006, 02:13 PM
  #23
King'sPawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KING ELVI
KP, well said and all your examples are showing themselves. It's Lost in translation. Some of these fans have their mind set and others have fallen in love with players. Love is blind and ignorance is bliss. Concur with your post. But as much as I hate to say it, differences in opinion are what makes this board work. Sometimes it's hard to read(main reason why I don't post too much anymore), but it's good to have.
Thank you and good points. Differences in opinion are what makes this board work, it's just the ratio and degree of these dissenting opinions are rather alarming. I mean... how many people will seriously be happy if the ONLY changes we make are letting UFAs walk and signing other UFAs to replace them?

It's like... no wonder AEG gets a bad reputation for not caring about the Kings success. It's beginning to show in the fans.

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05-30-2006, 05:01 PM
  #24
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I live Avery and everythign But i think it is time to let him go. Gring In Grier to take his place. Avery might have trouble finding a team to join next year.

As for JR. **** this POS. He is useless.
Why would u want to take up a spot with this guy. for 1 million i would rather have Lindros.

JR really pissed me off this year.
He never seemed interested. And he has a huge ****in mouth.
Elias would be sweet to!

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05-30-2006, 05:24 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn

And now that it's the offseason, while we were calling for change, improvements, etc... we have people completely changing their mind.

Because when everything goes wrong all you see on Message Boards is endless annoying venting.

You can't take all that much posted during those times all that seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn
WHY do people still want to keep Avery, when Lombardi has gone on record saying that he was part of the problem?
Because when the team went to hell one of the few guys that looked like he was trying to play hard was Avery.

That and Lombardi has said exactly the opposite of what you just said. That Avery will be evaluated, that Avery is a good player, and that its going to be the new coaches call. Once DL said that people stoped being so anti-avery.

Think its easy to blame him for the problems.. People are always looking for the "reason" why everything went to hell. Reality is that its more then just one thing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn
WHY do people want to keep Miller, hoping that he gets healthy when he has FAILED to do so time and time again, only playing 60+ games in a season THREE times since 95/96?

Because no one thinks we are going to be able to trade him. So why not just make the best of it? Bring in some nice physical d-men so when he goes down it doesn't hurt the team to much and hope he doesn't suck as much next year.

All you can do really in that situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn
WHY do people want to trade, of all our defenseman, Visnovsky, who's our best defenseman and 2nd cheapest after Gleason?

People post alot of stupid **** trades. Probably someone was looking at the roster and made some stupid trade idea based upon the fact that Visnovsky could get a good return or based upon some idea that DL likes big d-men.

People post every possible idea under the sun. The vaste majority of it is beyond stupid and drops down into moronic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn
We saw a team implode. People want to keep problem players on the team even though they know there's a morale problem... and people want to keep injury prone players when we've had this problem for the past several seasons. And to top it all off, we want to trade away our BETTER players who have played well for the team and stayed relatively healthy?
Because none of us have any idea who the problem players are. It always seems the guys who didn't have good season or have lower amounts of points suddenlly become the "problem player." Its never the high scorers or point a game players who can be problem...

We don't want to do anything. Some stupid poster with to much time on his hand making some stupid trade in a fantasy league doesn't mean a damn thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn
How do you guys HONESTLY expect the team to improve? We saw two totally different coaches run this team, neither of which were able to generate much heart from them when we needed them to. Do you think Crawford, another different coach, will suddenly make things better? Why did we bring in Lombardi, who, by his own definition, is a "builder" if we didn't want to build upon what little good we had with the team?

Sure. Why not? Their is a lot of higher level talent on this team. Add a d-man or two and some physical grinders for the bottom 6 and you have a good team.




Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn
People are even willing to take back Jeremy "60%" Roenick for $1.5 million or less.

Is it just me, or do others find this entire offseason maddening?


Sure... a JR on the 3rd or 4th line does make some people think its worth it. JR seems like the type of guy who is going to pitch a turnaround season. Some people like to take those chances.. Hell look at both the Canes and the Ducks. Both teams are doing so well because of chances on players who had bad or lessor years and are now leading them.

The offseason is always maddening. Its constantly filled with crap ideas that are never going to happen.

I think its because we really don't have anything to talk about that we havn't already talked about. So its just an attempt to make up something new....

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