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Top ten goalies of all time?

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Old
06-05-2006, 02:07 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wells
You respond about Messier but ignore Yzerman, Gilmour and a list that could go on and on. If Yzerman is so amazing he would never be reduced to a third liner ever
Well for starters I would not put Yzerman or Gilmour in my top 10 forwards of all time anyway(and I would have said that before their final years BTW).

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06-05-2006, 02:11 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildone26
Well for starters I would not put Yzerman or Gilmour in my top 10 forwards of all time anyway(and I would have said that before their final years BTW).
Good dodge.

But then, how about the top 500 forwards of all time? Surely a 3rd line centre shouldn't be mentioned on that list either?

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06-05-2006, 02:12 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildone26
Roy would have been the starter the moment he returned from his injury on any team he was on, even as a 40 year old, no coach would even think of making him the backup if he returned. He is too great for that.
Except if he openly came out and said that he could not help his team due to his injuries like Hasek did. If your coaching and your goalie tells you that he knows he can not help you then why would you start him.

Hasek never played like a backup unlike Belfour

SPLIT GP GS MIN W L T GA GAA SOG SV SV% ENG SO
2005-06 49 49 2896 22 22 0 159 3.29 1476 1317 .892 2 0

hey and while we are looking at Eddies 05-06 numbers lets look at Doms

SPLIT GP GS MIN W L T GA GAA SOG SV SV% ENG SO
2005-06 43 42 2583 28 10 0 90 2.09 1202 1112 .925 1 5

and while we are at it Emery

SPLIT GP GS MIN W L T GA GAA SOG SV SV% ENG SO
2005-06 39 38 2167 23 11 0 102 2.82 1045 943 .902 0 3

Ed who?

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Old
06-05-2006, 02:14 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildone26
Well for starters I would not put Yzerman or Gilmour in my top 10 forwards of all time anyway(and I would have said that before their final years BTW).
except I said top 200 not 10 and if your saying that they would not crack your top 200 then

Wasn't Belfour not even drafted? I may be wrong

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06-05-2006, 02:20 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wells
Except if he openly came out and said that he could not help his team due to his injuries like Hasek did. If your coaching and your goalie tells you that he knows he can not help you then why would you start him.

Hasek never played like a backup unlike Belfour

SPLIT GP GS MIN W L T GA GAA SOG SV SV% ENG SO
2005-06 49 49 2896 22 22 0 159 3.29 1476 1317 .892 2 0

hey and while we are looking at Eddies 05-06 numbers lets look at Doms

SPLIT GP GS MIN W L T GA GAA SOG SV SV% ENG SO
2005-06 43 42 2583 28 10 0 90 2.09 1202 1112 .925 1 5

and while we are at it Emery

SPLIT GP GS MIN W L T GA GAA SOG SV SV% ENG SO
2005-06 39 38 2167 23 11 0 102 2.82 1045 943 .902 0 3

Ed who?

Exactly. Belfour was great as a 39 year old in 2004, but horrible as a 41 year old in 2006. He should not have been starting, and probably would have been made the backup on most non-Quinn-coached teams. I can count the amount of good games he had on one hand.

His play as a 41 year old doesn't diminish his HOF career in the least though.

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06-05-2006, 02:22 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by arrbez
His play as a 41 year old doesn't diminish his HOF career in the least though.
Yeh not at all he has had a great career. I like Eddie it is just that he is a good target for this argument

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06-05-2006, 02:29 AM
  #32
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Wildone26:

Who would finish higher on your list of all-time left wingers: Dave Andreychuk, Chris Dingman, or Dimitry Afanasenkov?

Because one of those Tampa Bay left wingers was deemed to be so bad that he was cut from the team this season. He also happens to have over 600 goals and 1300 points in his 24 year career.

If you can make a sensible argument out of this similar situation, then I'll concede your point about Hasek being worse than Emery.

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06-05-2006, 03:19 AM
  #33
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of the players I have seen..

1. Hasek
2. Roy
3. Brodeur

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Old
06-05-2006, 03:37 AM
  #34
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Hasek is inferior to Ray Emery who is about the 750th best goalie of all time according to Bryan Murray, a veteran and highly respected NHL coach. Thus for that reason I dropped him from my top 10, imagine a top 10 goalie all time backing up somebody like Ray Emery, would never happen. None of the guys on my list were ever backup goalies once they first became starters.
While everyone has their own opinion, this is about in history, i'd like to see Ken Dryden put on the gear and see how much better he is, i bet he'd get beat by Emery too, take someone like Bobby Orr perfect example... he was one of the greatest players of all time, but he got injured, now he wouldn't do **** in this league, he couldn't do anything 20 years ago let alone today, that doesn't change the fact that in his prime he was the best out there period. and i believe for most of the 90's no one could touch Hasek, Hasek and Roy were clearly the 2 greatest goaltenders of the 90's, Hasek is very old and very damaged, his time to be a star has passed, but that doesn't change the fact he WAS an incredable goalie. minus Brodeur and Patrick Roy anyone to put on the pads on your top 10 list in the 2006-2007 season would be at best a back-up to Ray Emery.

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06-05-2006, 09:36 AM
  #35
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The best that I have seen in no order...

Vladislav Tretiak
Ken Dryden
Patrick Roy
Dominik Hasek
Bernie Parent
Martin Brodeur
Tony Esposito
Rogie Vachon
Gilles Meloche
Billy Smith
Grant Fuhr
Tom Barrasso
Mike Richter
Roberto Luongo
Miika Kiprusoff

Even past their prime when I started watching them, they impressed me:
Gump Worsley
Jacques Plante
Johnny Bower
Eddie Giacomin

Those I would have liked to have seen or seen in their prime (some I only saw near the end of their career like Hall and Sawchuk):

Glenn Hall
Terry Sawchuk
Turk Broda
Roy Worters
Bill Durnan
Georges Vezina
George Hainsworth

Probably forgot some too.

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06-05-2006, 06:36 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildone26
No top 10 all-time goalie would be a backup goalie at any point in his career once he became starter, especialy behind somebody like Ray Emery.
Jacques Plante was backup to one of the worst goalies in NHL history, Ron Low, on the 1973 Maple Leafs. Sure, Plante was very old and injured at that point, but if you don't take that into account for Hasek, you shouldn't take that into account for Plante.

Glenn Hall was backup to Ernie Wakely on the 1971 Blues (though they did split starts in the postseason).

Terry Sawchuk was backup to Don Simmons on the 1957 Bruins.

Grant Fuhr was backup to Fred Brathwaite on the 2000 Flames.

Bernie Parent was backup to Wayne Stephenson on the 1979 Flyers.

Tony Esposito was backup to Murray Bannerman on the 1983 Hawks.

If Plante, Hall, Sawchuk, Fuhr, Parent and Esposito don't belong on a top ten goalies list, your standards are a lot tougher than mine.

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06-05-2006, 06:50 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ry-Dogg
While everyone has their own opinion, this is about in history, i'd like to see Ken Dryden put on the gear and see how much better he is, i bet he'd get beat by Emery too, take someone like Bobby Orr perfect example... he was one of the greatest players of all time, but he got injured, now he wouldn't do **** in this league, he couldn't do anything 20 years ago let alone today, that doesn't change the fact that in his prime he was the best out there period. and i believe for most of the 90's no one could touch Hasek, Hasek and Roy were clearly the 2 greatest goaltenders of the 90's, Hasek is very old and very damaged, his time to be a star has passed, but that doesn't change the fact he WAS an incredable goalie. minus Brodeur and Patrick Roy anyone to put on the pads on your top 10 list in the 2006-2007 season would be at best a back-up to Ray Emery.
Are you even hinting that an in-his-prime Bobby Orr, when he was playing relatively close to a full season and scoring over 120 points, couldn't cut it in today's NHL? What a croc. Orr's the best player who ever laced up the blades. Nobody dominated all aspects of the game like he did. There are a lot of historians who will tell you that Bobby Orr is the fastest skater to ever play the game, and the best overall skater to ever play the game.

Hasek's a top five goaltender of all-time. Plante, Roy, Sawchuk, Hall and Hasek. There's your top five. Dryden, Tretiak, Durnan, Parent and Brodeur are likely 6-10. Fuhr, Smith, T. Esposito and Hainsworth are close. There's about 10-12 other goalies who deserve consideration for the top 10, too. (Broda, Giocamin, Gump Worsley, Vezina, etc.)

wildone26, I know that giving credit where it is due is a foreign concept to you, but Emery was Hasek's backup this year. The only reason Emery saw any action down the stretch was because of Hasek's injury. (Not going to get into a debate as to whether it was legitimate or not). When Bryan Murray had Hasek and Emery at his disposal, Hasek started the overwhelming majority of the games.

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06-05-2006, 07:15 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildone26
Hasek is inferior to Ray Emery who is about the 750th best goalie of all time according to Bryan Murray, a veteran and highly respected NHL coach. Thus for that reason I dropped him from my top 10, imagine a top 10 goalie all time backing up somebody like Ray Emery, would never happen. None of the guys on my list were ever backup goalies once they first became starters.
Plante was kinda the back-up to Glenn Hall (also should be on every single top 10 list) in St. Louis. Maybe not back-up as it was really a platoon system though Plante started more playoff games while Hall got more regular season starts.

Then Plante backed up Bernie Parent in Toronto and later Ron Low in Toronto.

But of course your knowledge of Hockey History is unmatched. As is your knowledge of the past season when indeed Hasek was the back-up to Emery.

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06-06-2006, 04:35 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
Are you even hinting that an in-his-prime Bobby Orr, when he was playing relatively close to a full season and scoring over 120 points, couldn't cut it in today's NHL? What a croc. Orr's the best player who ever laced up the blades. Nobody dominated all aspects of the game like he did. There are a lot of historians who will tell you that Bobby Orr is the fastest skater to ever play the game, and the best overall skater to ever play the game.
Yes, i'm suggesting that at 58 years old and extremely damaged knees Bobby Orr wouldn't be able to play in the NHL today, Orr is by far one of the best players to ever play, and if he wasn't injured he probably would have stuck around the league as long as lafleur maybe even longer and the bruins would have probably got him back at some point and would have pulled a lanny mcdonald with boston in 1990 and put them over the top, but with his injuries and age, i don't believe Orr would gain a roster spot right now in the NHL, and that doesn't change that he's arguably the best player in the history of hockey.

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06-06-2006, 05:47 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
Jacques Plante was backup to one of the worst goalies in NHL history, Ron Low, on the 1973 Maple Leafs. Sure, Plante was very old and injured at that point, but if you don't take that into account for Hasek, you shouldn't take that into account for Plante.
Jacques Plante was 44, not a 41 year who had the best stats in the NHL earlier in the year and still was demoted to the backup, had he returned, behind a mediocre starting goalie like Emery who was playing a mediocre series vs Buffalo at the time.


Quote:
Glenn Hall was backup to Ernie Wakely on the 1971 Blues (though they did split starts in the postseason).
I didnt have Glenn Hall in my top 10 list anyway as you can see.


Quote:
Terry Sawchuk was backup to Don Simmons on the 1957 Bruins.
No he wasnt, Sawchuk played most of the regular season games, but retired for the first time before the end of the year. Even with that he ended the year with more regular season games then Simmons did. He was not the backup by any means. I dont know why you are saying this.

Quote:
Grant Fuhr was backup to Fred Brathwaite on the 2000 Flames.
I did not have Fuhr in my top 10 list either as you can see.

Quote:
Bernie Parent was backup to Wayne Stephenson on the 1979 Flyers.
I also did not have Parent on my top 10 list either.

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Tony Esposito was backup to Murray Bannerman on the 1983 Hawks.
Not entirely true, it was a starters platoon, and Esposito was the last one in my top 10 list.

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06-06-2006, 06:17 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildone26
Jacques Plante was 44, not a 41 year who had the best stats in the NHL earlier in the year and still was demoted to the backup, had he returned, behind a mediocre starting goalie like Emery who was playing a mediocre series vs Buffalo at the time.
1. You're taking age into account for Plante but not Hasek. Hardly seems fair.
2. Plante was one of the best goalie in the league when healthy too. In 1973 Plante was 5th in the league in save percentage and 7th in GAA on a very bad team. (Minimum 1000 minutes). Imagine how much better those numbers would be (especially GAA) if he played on a good team.
3. Emery in 2006 at least as good as Ron Low.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildone26
No he wasnt, Sawchuk played most of the regular season games, but retired for the first time before the end of the year. Even with that he ended the year with more regular season games then Simmons did. He was not the backup by any means. I dont know why you are saying this.
Yes, he retired due to stress. A large portion of this came from that fact that he had to, for the first time in his career, share starts with another goalie. The toll was too much for poor Terry, and he retired. If being too physically injured to play is enough to keep Hasek off your top ten, then being too emotionally injured to play should be enough to keep Sawchuk off as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildone26
I didnt have Glenn Hall in my top 10 list anyway as you can see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildone26
I did not have Fuhr in my top 10 list either as you can see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildone26
I also did not have Parent on my top 10 list either.
I'm aware of those omissions. I think Hall is lock for the top five and Fuhr and Parent should both rank around 8th to 12th. I hope you're not leaving them off simply because they were backups to lesser goalies past their prime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildone26
Not entirely true, it was a starters platoon, and Esposito was the last one in my top 10 list.
They were platoon starters in a sense, but Bannerman got more starts in both the regular season and (more importantly) the playoffs.

Anyway, we both have different ways of rating players. I'm primarily concerned about how good they were in their prime. You seem to think that a single bad season as an injured-riddled 40+ year old automatically prevents them from being a top-ten player. To each his own.

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06-06-2006, 06:26 PM
  #42
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Any top 10 list without Hall and Hasek is a really really bad one.

Glen Hall was an NHL first teams all-star (the equivalent to the modern Vezina award) 7 times. That's more than any other goalie in the history of the NHL. On top of that, he was the runner up 4 times, and won the Conn Smyth award.

Dominik Hasek won the Vezina award 6 times, and was the most dominant goaltender of his era. He's the only goaltender to win the Hart and Pearson trophies twice.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you come off like someone who knows very little about the history of hockey. Both Hall and Hasek were significantly better than Thompson, Belfour, and Esposito.

I'm not sure if you were just looking at Vezina awards for guys like Thompson and Hainsworth, but remember that untill 1982 the Vezina was what we now call the Jennings award (lowest GAA). And as we all know, GAA usually has as much to do with the team as the goalie.

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06-06-2006, 06:27 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildone26
Jacques Plante was 44, not a 41 year who had the best stats in the NHL earlier in the year and still was demoted to the backup, had he returned, behind a mediocre starting goalie like Emery who was playing a mediocre series vs Buffalo at the time.

I didnt have Glenn Hall in my top 10 list anyway as you can see.
Hall should be on any top 10 list.....

And wild one as a fellow Sens fan I really don't understand your idiotic talk of Hasek being Emery's back-up. Did you watch the playoffs. Did you see (or hear about) Hasek in practice during the Sabres series? Hasek was still injured. Injured. If you are facing elimination do you start a goalie who despite a bad game 1 has played okay in the series or do you start an injured goalie who hasn't played in 3 months?

It would have been a mistake to play a still injured Hasek in the Buffalo series. Even if he was or said he was entirely healthy do you really want to start a goalie who only a couple of days before was very clearly injured when you are facing elimination? Emery healthy gives you a hell of alot better chance to win when you have no margin for error and your other choice is an injured 41 year old goalie who hasn't played in 3 months.

Are you angry at Hasek? Or are you angry at Murray? Or are you just trying to start something with your untrue comments that Hasek was backing up Emery?

As a Sens fan I would have been far more angry if they started Hasek in game 5. He almost guaranteed would have blown up. Days before in practice he couldn't move to one side!

If the Sens had somehow beat Buffalo and gone to the next round you could test Hasek because you aren't going to be facing elimination. If he blows up then you aren't going to lose the series. Murray was smart to not put Hasek in agianst Buffalo though I doubt it was even an option. What Murray was stupid to do was to talk about Hasek in the press at all, then or now, distracting the team and making fans like you believe the things you believe about the Ottawa goaltending situation in the playoffs.

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06-06-2006, 06:35 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
1. You're taking age into account for Plante but not Hasek. Hardly seems fair.
Plante was 44, Hasek turned 41 near the end of the season. To me that is a big difference, once you get past 35 every year is a big difference, let alone 3-4 years.

Quote:
2. Plante was one of the best goalie in the league when healthy too. In 1973 Plante was 5th in the league in save percentage and 7th in GAA on a very bad team. (Minimum 1000 minutes).
I did not say he was not good anymore, it was their choice to make him a backup goalie.

He was still not demoted to backup behind a mediocre(at best)goalie after having the best stats in the league as Hasek had earlier in the year playing as the starting goalie however. That just shows Hasek is not as highly regarded that one would feel acceptable to do this.

Quote:
3. Emery in 2006 at least as good as Ron Low.
I did not say he was any worse then Low, my point was that he is not that much better, if any better considering his inexperience.


Quote:
Yes, he retired due to stress. A large portion of this came from that fact that he had to, for the first time in his career, share starts with another goalie. The toll was too much for poor Terry, and he retired.
First of all you called him the backup goalie, so you are already changing your stance somewhat. Secondly even your altered stance is still an exagerration on your part, he wasnt getting to play every game, but he was still playing atleast 2 out of every 3 games, he was far ahead in games played for the year when he left. Like I said even missing a good portion of the year he ended the regular season with more games played then Simmons had.


Quote:
If being too physically injured to play is enough to keep Hasek off your top ten, then being too emotionally injured to play should be enough to keep Sawchuk off as well.
Sorry but I dont get that. All the stories I have read on Sawchuk had him leaving the game temporarily for extreme stress that were causing heart and stomach problems. It was not due to extreme demotion of his role, which was still far more a starters role then you seem to believe it was. I never read that he was emotionaly injured in any way.




Quote:
I'm aware of those omissions. I think Hall is lock for the top five and Fuhr and Parent should both rank around 8th to 12th. I hope you're not leaving them off simply because they were backups to lesser goalies past their prime.
No I had left them off anyway. The fact that they were backup goalies in their careers did not need to come into consideration for me since they were already off my list anyway.

Quote:
They were platoon starters in a sense, but Bannerman got more starts in both the regular season and (more importantly) the playoffs.
3 more starts in the regular season as in 41-38, forgive me if that is not a sufficient enough difference to define a starter. Yes in the playoffs it was 8-5, but usually a backup does not play at all in the playoffs barring replacing an underperforming goalie.


Quote:
Anyway, we both have different ways of rating players. I'm primarily concerned about how good they were in their prime. You seem to think that a single bad season as an injured-riddled 40+ year old automatically prevents them from being a top-ten player. To each his own.
Fair enough.

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06-08-2006, 02:22 AM
  #45
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Well the only real thing that needs to be said to shut wildone down is that Hasek was not the backup. What do you not understand about that. He was injured that does not mean he was the backup. If Gretzky was injured does that make him the fourth line center? ofcourse it bloody doesn't how stupid is that. You argue about Plante being 44 not 41 when he was a backup BUT

3)I refuse to include a goalie who was only a backup behind somebody like Ray Emery at any point in his career in my top 10 all time, too many great goalies to shut out for somebody was ever backing up the 750th best goalie of all time for any period of time. Simple as that.

3. Emery in 2006 at least as good as Ron Low.

I did not say he was any worse then Low, my point was that he is not that much better, if any better considering his inexperience.

So you refuse to include a goalie who was only a backup behind somebody like Ray Emery at any point. But you say that Emery isnt any worse than Low. So surely Plante must be axed off that list. Lmao at this 750th best goalie of all time rubbish. Please name me the 749 better than him so we can have this number confirmed

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06-08-2006, 02:29 AM
  #46
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Anyway, we both have different ways of rating players. I'm primarily concerned about how good they were in their prime. You seem to think that a single bad season as an injured-riddled 40+ year old automatically prevents them from being a top-ten player. To each his own.

I hardly consider his season a "bad season" especially for an injury riddled 40+ year old

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06-08-2006, 02:31 AM
  #47
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1)Patrick Roy
2)Terry Sawchuk
3)Jacques Plante
4)Ken Dryden
5)Turk Broda
6)Martin Brodeur
7)Bill Durnan
8)Ed Belfour
9)George Hainsworth
10)Tony Esposito

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06-08-2006, 02:33 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildone26
Sorry but I dont get that. All the stories I have read on Sawchuk had him leaving the game temporarily for extreme stress that were causing heart and stomach problems. It was not due to extreme demotion of his role, which was still far more a starters role then you seem to believe it was. I never read that he was emotionaly injured in any way.
Sorry but I don't get that. All the stories I have read on Hasek had him injured and not fit enough to take part in a game let alone playoff one. He was injured which is far different than being a backup. I never read that he was a backup in anyway.

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06-08-2006, 02:44 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander
1)Patrick Roy
2)Terry Sawchuk
3)Jacques Plante
4)Ken Dryden
5)Turk Broda
6)Martin Brodeur
7)Bill Durnan
8)Ed Belfour
9)George Hainsworth
10)Tony Esposito
Another list without Glenn Hall or Hasek.....

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course. But again how can a list not include Hall who was the best goalie in the NHL 7 times (first all star selection) and the 2nd best 4 times (2nd team All-star). Plante (3 firsts, 4 seconds) Sawchuk (3 firsts, 4 seconds). You can site lack of playoff success but he has a cup and a Conn Smythe trophy on a losing team. Chicago did have some good teams in the early 1960's but Montreal was a powerhouse most of his career and then Toronto won 4 cups. Sawchuk was around for the first Wings mini-dynasty in the early 50's. The fact he has fewer cups than Sawchuk and Plante is that he was on worse teams not that they were far better goalies.

Hall's career Goals against average is comparable at 2.49 to them. Sawchuk 2.51, Plante 2.37.

Hasek with 6 Vezina trophies, 2 MVP, 2 Pearson trophies to Roy's 3 Vezina's and Brodeur's 2 Vezina's and Belfour's 1 Vezina. Belfour has 1 Cup same as Hasek.

Tony Esposito was a great goalie. But after his 1st few stellar seasons he no longer was as good as his beginnings. A Hall of Famer and a great goalie but he has no buisiness on a list of the top 10 goalies in my opinion. 3 time first team ALL-Star and 2 time second team All-star. Great but in his own era both Dryden and Parent were clearly better despite Espo having played far more games than those 2.

In my opinion Hasek has to be on any top 10 list or it is not a very good list. Even if you put the old-timer's like Broda, Durnan and Hainsworth on the list there is easily a place for Hasek on it. He doesn't need to be placed above Roy and Brodeur but anyone placing him below Belfour really has to look at whether they are biased against Hasek becuse they simply dislike him. You can dislike Hasek and think he is a flake but his play spoke for himself. And Tony O can not possibly be better than Hall. Hall 16 seasons and never had a bad year. He was one of the top 2 goalies in 11 of those seasons. In 3 of the 5 seasons he was not an end of the year All-Star he still did great things. 1965 led playoffs in games and wins, 1968 played in the All-star game and led playoffs in games, minutes and shutouts and won the Conn Smythe trophy. 1970 despite playing only 18 regular season games was goalie on team in NHL finals.

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06-08-2006, 03:09 PM
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Leaf Lander
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ops glenn hall is a oversight lol

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