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Top ten goalies of all time?

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Old
08-31-2006, 11:49 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisent View Post
I am not anti-Brodeur. When his team won, he played against weak opposition (at least in the Olympics) and when his team played bad, he sure didn`t do a thing to give them a chance (one good game that happen to be the finals).
I didn`t include the 2004 cup because I haven`t seen a single game. But I saw the WC and the Olympics. I can create a list of goalies for these tournaments.
And just again, I am not anti-Brodeur. I will gladly admit that he is among the (if not the) top goalies in the NHL right now.
Well, since you didn't see the 2004 World Cup, and that happens to be the internation tournament in which Brodeur played his best, don't you think it is a tad unfair to say he is a bad international goalie when you have only seen the worst of his performances?

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Old
09-04-2006, 03:20 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by meehan View Post
No one says Roy played bad, but Brodeur did backstop a medal winning team, and he did follow that up with a stellar world cup performance. Take for it what you will, but Brodeur has had more success in international tournaments.
I will take it for what it's worth - something, but very, very little.

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Originally Posted by meehan View Post
A few things; one, Brodeur playing more games is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. It proves his durability, which is second to no goalie ever save perhaps Glenn Hall. Secondly, on statistics, the years Roy lead the league in save percentage, only once did he play over 60 games. I am sorry, but leading the league in save percentage while playing only 45 games is not impressive when guys like Grant Fuhr played 70+ games that year. Finally, as all Brodeur critics inevitably mention the team that played in front of him, I have to point out that Roy can have no complaints about the quality of players he has had in front of him; do you want me to name all the Hall of Fame players who played with him, especially Hall of Fame defensemen? I mean if you want to get nit-picky about it, for all the talk about Roy being the greatest big game goalie ever, his record in games 7s is hardly stellar. Like I said, Brodeur at this point is not as great as Roy, however I think at the same point in careers, they were about equal.
Brodeur playing more games is not a good thing or a bad thing - it's just a symptom of the league he played in. Roy played that many games too, once the league had evolved to that point. If Brodeur was in the 80's, in all likelihood he would not have played 70+ games, probably not even 60+. That's just how it was. And I don't see what you mean about Fuhr. In his heyday, his regular season GP totals were 45, 46, 40, 44, 75, 59, 21, 13, 65, and 58. It was about right then that the league had evolved to the point where starters would play 65+ games consistently. So it is not Roy's fault he didn't play that many per season. If you're implying that his save% would have gone down had he played more games, that is just foolishness. And quality of players has nothing to do with it. Quality of team has everything to do with it. Look where Roy's teams finished in the overall standings in his career, and look where Brodeur's teams finished.
Roy: 8th, 5th, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 17th, (half season on 9th and half on 2nd), 1st, 7th, 4th, 9th, 1st, 4th, 6th. Avg: 5.63
Brodeur: 2nd, 9th, 13th, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 10th, 4th, 9th, 8th. Avg. 5.75.
Which means that the quality of TEAM they have had has been equal. until you consider that the leagues that Roy played in had 21 teams for half his career. 8th in a 21 team league is like 13th in a 30 team league. Using a simple normalizing formula, Normlaizing these results to a 30-team league, Roy's average becomes 6.80 and Brodeur's becomes 6.18, (Because Roy played in time when there was an average of 24.83 teams in the league and Brodeur has had 27.92 in his league) showing that based on league competition, Brodeur has had a team that has been on average, a half-place better in the league standings than Roy has had. I could be a jerk and say that you're wrong and Brodeur has had far better teams than Roy, but based on that evidence, I consider that insignificant. Let's say it's equal. You'd rather talk about players? Well sure, Roy has had some great forwards, but who cares? He had Chelios and Robinson (although at age 34-37) on D for a few seasons, and then no one of significance for 6 more seasons, and then Foote in his prime for 8 seasons in Colorado. (Foote will never be a hall of famer, but he was very solid) And he also had Bourque (age 40) for one season. Blake doesn't matter as he was not a defensive defenseman by any stretch. Brodeur played his ENTIRE career behind two of the best defensemen of our generation, and two guys who are top 20 all-time, Stevens and Niedermayer. Daneyko was no slouch back there either. I'd say it's clear Brodeur has had an easier time. Lastly, as for game 7's, I don't know where you got this from. I don't have the time to verify this, but i will. I did research before however, their OT records. Roy's is 42-19 (.689) and Brodeur's is 9-18 (.333) prior to this season, but I don't think he played any OT this year. Just to throw another all-time great in there for comparison, Hasek's record in OT is 14-12 (.538)

I will be back to post their game 7 records tomorrow.

Update: Game 7 records:
Roy: 14 GP, 7-7, 2.49, 2 SO, 1-1 in OT
Brodeur: 8 GP, 5-3, 1.67, 1 SO, 0-1 in OT
Hasek: 4 GP, 2-2, 1.63, 1 SO, 0-2 in OT
Roy has beaten Brodeur in their only meeting (with the cup on the line), Brodeur has beaten Hasek in their only meeting, and Hasek beat Roy in their only meeting. Conclusion: All three goalies have been at least average in game 7's. However: Given the fact that some of Roy's higher GAA can be attributed to his higher scoring era, and the fact that this really represents a very small sample size, (4-14 pieces of data for each goalie) I call it irrelevant. I should also mention that any playoff game is a big game, especially games where you have to win to stay alive, or win to take the series, or any game that goes into OT. I won't research the former two, but I already mentioned the latter, OT records. At least looking at OT records, we have enough instances for all three goalies to make the results more credible, and, big surprise, their win percentages differ hugely enough to conclude that Roy dominated Hasek and Hasek dominated Brodeur, in that area.

Remember, I am definitely not a Brodeur critic. I can defend his place on a top-10 list to actual Brodeur critics. But at the same time I know where he can realistically be placed, and as such I must downplay him to the Brodeur overraters


Last edited by seventieslord: 09-04-2006 at 04:46 AM. Reason: adding more info.
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Old
09-04-2006, 03:52 AM
  #103
Andre Boudrias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildone26 View Post
These would be mine in order:

1)Patrick Roy
2)Terry Sawchuk
3)Jacques Plante
4)Ken Dryden
5)Bill Durnan
6)Martin Brodeur
7)Tiny Thompson
8)Ed Belfour
9)George Hainsworth
10)Tony Esposito

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Old
09-04-2006, 04:52 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I will take it for what it's worth - something, but very, very little.



Brodeur playing more games is not a good thing or a bad thing - it's just a symptom of the league he played in. Roy played that many games too, once the league had evolved to that point. If Brodeur was in the 80's, in all likelihood he would not have played 70+ games, probably not even 60+. That's just how it was. And I don't see what you mean about Fuhr. In his heyday, his regular season GP totals were 45, 46, 40, 44, 75, 59, 21, 13, 65, and 58. It was about right then that the league had eveolved to the point where starterd would play 65+ games consistently. So it is not Roy's fault he didn't play that many per season. If you're implying that his save% would have gone down had he played more games, that is just foolishness.
Here is the thing; about every year Brodeur is top 3 in games played; Roy has only lead the league in that once. In 1988, a year Roy lead the league in SV% 15 goalies played more games than him. In the time Roy and Brodeur were in the league together Brodeur has routinely played over 70 games and Roy never has. Brodeur, simply has played a great percentage of his teams games. And I am very justified to believe playing more games effects your statistics. In 2003 Turco plays 55 games and has a .932 sv%, 12 playoff and 73 regular season games later he has a .913 sv%. In 2004 Kiprusoff plays 38 games and has a .933 sv%. 26 playoff and 74 regular season games later it's .923 (still great though, but significantly lower). There's a reason these guys didn't win the Vezina after having great save percentages that year; they didn't play enough games to justify winning the award. As you play more games you get fatigued and your play suffers. How many times did Roy lead the league in save percentage when he was on the Avalanche and was playing more games than his early Montreal days?

Quote:
And quality of players has nothing to do with it. Quality of team has everything to do with it. Look where Roy's teams finished in the overall standings in his career, and look where Brodeur's teams finished.
Roy: 8th, 5th, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 17th, (half season on 9th and half on 2nd), 1st, 7th, 4th, 9th, 1st, 4th, 6th. Avg: 5.63
Brodeur: 2nd, 9th, 13th, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 10th, 4th, 9th, 8th. Avg. 5.75.
Which means that the quality of TEAM they have had has been equal. until you consider that the leagues that Roy played in had 21 teams for half his career, which means that 8th in a 21 team league is like 13th in a 30 team league. Using a simple normalizing formula, Normlaizing these results to a 30-team league, Roy's average becomes 6.80 and Brodeur's becomes 6.18, (Because Roy played in time when there was an average of 24.83 teams in the league and Brodeur has had 27.92 in his league) showing that based on league competition, Brodeur has had a team that has been on average, a half-place better in the league standings than Roy has had. Still, I consider that insignificant. Let's say it's equal. You'd rather talk about players? Well sure Roy has had some great forwards, but who cares? Roy had Chelios on D for a few seasons, and then Foote for a few in Colorado. Foote will never be called an all-time great, but he was very solid. Brodeur played his ENTIRE career behind two of the best defensemen of our generation, Stevens and Niedermayer. Daneyko was no slouch back there either. I'd say it's clear Brodeur has had an easier time.
Well firstoff you forget Larry Robinson, Rob Blake, and Ray Bourque for that short stretch; three HOF defensement you conveniently forget to mention. Secondly, yeah Brodeur had Stevens and Niedermayer, but did he have anything nearly as good as Sakic and Forsberg at center on his teams? How many games did he win because of Sakic's clutch play? Thus, I think it is unfair to not "care" about his forwards as they have as much to do with winning as he did. Thirdly, comparing team records show very little as goalies play on these teams and are helping them win? How do we know how much one goalie is helping over another? As Brodeur plays more than Roy, you could say he is helping his team more as you can't help your team win if you don't play. Secordly, I looked at the records of both these goalies backups a while back and saw that the winning percentage of Brodeur's backups was lower than the winning percentage of Roy's backups, indicating Brodeur again was more important to his team winning games. All this is very nit picky and doesn't prove much as both goalies have proven to be important for their respective teams.

Quote:
Lastly, as for game 7's, I don't know where you got these numbers from. I don't have the time to verify this, but i will. I did research before however, their OT records. Roy's is 42-19 (.689) and Brodeur's is 9-18 (.333)prior to this season, but I don't think he played any OT this year. Just to throw another all-time great in there for comparison, Hasek's record in OT is 14-12 (.538)

I will be back to post their game 7 records tomorrow.
From what I saw, I believe Roy's record is game 7s is 6-6 and Brodeurs is 5-3. And yeah, the OT records are very different, however, IMO game 7s are more important than OT, because you can lose in OT and still have a shot to win the series, unless it is an elimination game. All game 7s are elimination games (duh). As long we we bring up other all time greats OT records, I believe Sawchuk has a 4-8 record in OT, lets take him out of the hall of fame.

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09-04-2006, 04:59 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I will be back to post their game 7 records tomorrow.

Update: Game 7 records:
Roy: 14 GP, 7-7, 2.49, 2 SO, 1-1 in OT
Brodeur: 8 GP, 5-3, 1.67, 1 SO, 0-1 in OT
Hasek: 4 GP, 2-2, 1.63, 1 SO, 0-2 in OT
Roy has beaten Brodeur in their only meeting (with the cup on the line), Brodeur has beaten Hasek in their only meeting, and Hasek beat Roy in their only meeting. Conclusion: All three goalies have been at least average in game 7's. However: Given the fact that some of Roy's higher GAA can be attributed to his higher scoring era, and the fact that this really represents a very small sample size, (4-14 pieces of data for each goalie) I call it irrelevant. I should also mention that any playoff game is a big game, especially games where you have to win to stay alive, or win to take the series, or any game that goes into OT. I won't research the former two, but I already mentioned the latter, OT records. At least looking at OT records, we have enough instances for all three goalies to make the results more credible, and, big surprise, their win percentages differ hugely enough to conclude that Roy dominated Hasek and Hasek dominated Brodeur, in that area.

Remember, I am definitely not a Brodeur critic. I can defend his place on a top-10 list to actual Brodeur critics. But at the same time I know where he can realistically be placed, and as such I must downplay him to the Brodeur overraters
Well, as you can see, Brodeur is the only one of those goalies with a winning record in game 7s. Secondly, how is a loss in OT of a game 1 or 2 as big as losing a game 7?

As I said, Brodeur isn't as great as Roy. Comparing the two now is like comparing Roy to Plante and Sawchuk when he still had 6 years left in his career. What happens over the next 6 years of Brodeur's career will determine where he stands in comparison to the very best goalies ever.

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09-04-2006, 06:50 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by meehan View Post
Here is the thing; about every year Brodeur is top 3 in games played; Roy has only lead the league in that once. In 1988, a year Roy lead the league in SV% 15 goalies played more games than him. In the time Roy and Brodeur were in the league together Brodeur has routinely played over 70 games and Roy never has. Brodeur, simply has played a great percentage of his teams games. And I am very justified to believe playing more games effects your statistics. In 2003 Turco plays 55 games and has a .932 sv%, 12 playoff and 73 regular season games later he has a .913 sv%. In 2004 Kiprusoff plays 38 games and has a .933 sv%. 26 playoff and 74 regular season games later it's .923 (still great though, but significantly lower). There's a reason these guys didn't win the Vezina after having great save percentages that year; they didn't play enough games to justify winning the award. As you play more games you get fatigued and your play suffers. How many times did Roy lead the league in save percentage when he was on the Avalanche and was playing more games than his early Montreal days?



Well firstoff you forget Larry Robinson, Rob Blake, and Ray Bourque for that short stretch; three HOF defensement you conveniently forget to mention. Secondly, yeah Brodeur had Stevens and Niedermayer, but did he have anything nearly as good as Sakic and Forsberg at center on his teams? How many games did he win because of Sakic's clutch play? Thus, I think it is unfair to not "care" about his forwards as they have as much to do with winning as he did. Thirdly, comparing team records show very little as goalies play on these teams and are helping them win? How do we know how much one goalie is helping over another? As Brodeur plays more than Roy, you could say he is helping his team more as you can't help your team win if you don't play. Secordly, I looked at the records of both these goalies backups a while back and saw that the winning percentage of Brodeur's backups was lower than the winning percentage of Roy's backups, indicating Brodeur again was more important to his team winning games. All this is very nit picky and doesn't prove much as both goalies have proven to be important for their respective teams.



From what I saw, I believe Roy's record is game 7s is 6-6 and Brodeurs is 5-3. And yeah, the OT records are very different, however, IMO game 7s are more important than OT, because you can lose in OT and still have a shot to win the series, unless it is an elimination game. All game 7s are elimination games (duh). As long we we bring up other all time greats OT records, I believe Sawchuk has a 4-8 record in OT, lets take him out of the hall of fame.

I only forgot those three defensemen for a short moment. Shortly after my post, I did some major editing to that paragraph. Take a look. I just didn't realize you'd be right there to answer me!

I can address your other points later, but really, I should not have even been up long enough to make my first post this evening...

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09-04-2006, 06:51 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
It's unbelieveable how many people overrate Brodeur. In your case you're making him Roy's equal, which is sacreligious. What has he done that Roy hasn't?
International championships????

It amazes me how many people overrate Patrick Roy.

Seems fairly equal but stats favour Brodeur - and check out the shutouts and seasons with 40 or more wins. Also Brodeur is on pace to surpass Roy for career wins. Also Brodeur has been more durable.

Three Stanley Cups each.

Brodeur has the Calder, three Jennings trophies, two Vezinas, five 40 win seasons thus far in his career.

Roy has three Conn Smythes, five Jennings, three Vezinas, one 40 win season.

Brodeur
Regular season
813GP 446W 2.21GAA .912Sv% 80S/O

Post Season
153GP 89W 1.88GAA .923Sv Percentage 21S/O


Roy
Regular season
1029GP 551W 2.54GAA .910Sv% 66S/O

Post Season
247GP 151W 2.30GAA .918Sv% 23S/O

As I said pretty much even at this point - toss a coin.

But Brodeur has the chance to move ahead of Roy over the next few seasons IMHO.

YMMV

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09-04-2006, 07:11 AM
  #108
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1)Jacques Plante
2)Patrick Roy
3)Terry Sawchuk
4)Bill Durnan
5)Martin Brodeur
6)Dominik Hasek
7)Glenn Hall
8)Vladislav Tretiak
9)Tony Esposito
10)Eddie Belfour
11)Bernard Parent
12)Ken Dryden
13)Johnny Bower
14)Cecil Thompson
15)Georges Vezina
16)Walter Broda
17)Chuck Gardiner
18)Grant Fuhr
19)Frank Brismek
20)Ed Giacomin
21)Lorne Worsley
22)Billy Smith
23)Mike Richter
24)Rogatien Vachon
25)Tom Barrasso

HM)Lorne Chabot, Pelle Lindberg, Charlie Hodge, Al Rollins


Last edited by EagleBelfour: 09-05-2006 at 05:47 AM.
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09-04-2006, 07:15 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I only forgot those three defensemen for a short moment. Shortly after my post, I did some major editing to that paragraph. Take a look. I just didn't realize you'd be right there to answer me!

I can address your other points later, but really, I should not have even been up long enough to make my first post this evening...
Well in that case I have to bring up that you are very much short changing Blake, as though he isn't as good defensively as Stevens or Foote, he is well above average defensively and does a good job of blocking shots and cancelling guys out in front of the net. Over the last 8 years that they played Foote/Stevens have been about equal IMO. The only reason Stevens is going to the HOF and Foote isn't is because Stevens was a great offensive defensemen in the beginning of his career while Foote was never good offensively. Finally, you forget that in the beginning of his career, Niedermayer was no way near as great defensively as he is now. I would say 2001 onwards Niedermayer has been one of the greatest defensive players in the game. Before then there were many better defensemen on the defensive side of the puck.

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09-04-2006, 09:50 AM
  #110
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for my list i have to say i never saw older hockey and older goalies like plante durnan esposito .....
thats why my lsit will have only the names of goaltenders from the past 20 years

1. Hasek
2. Roy
3. Brodeur
4. Tretiak (ok hes a bit older but i saw at least a little from him)
5. Richter
6. Belfour
7. Fuhr
8. Barasso
9. Vanbiesbrouck
10. Joseph

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09-04-2006, 10:55 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Three Stanley Cups each.

Brodeur has the Calder, three Jennings trophies, two Vezinas, five 40 win seasons thus far in his career.

Roy has three Conn Smythes, five Jennings, three Vezinas, one 40 win season.
Now, I'm not one to generally defend Patrick Roy because I think he gets a little overrated. However, his career accomplishments are better than Brodeur's.

He has 4 cups, for the record. The calder and Jennings are nice, but not particularily important. Roy has more vezina's (not that that couldn't change by the time Brodeur is done), but the 3 Conn Smyth's are what really tips the scales. That's damn impressive. To be fair to Brodeur though, he should have won it in 2003.

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09-04-2006, 10:56 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangersFan88 View Post
for my list i have to say i never saw older hockey and older goalies like plante durnan esposito .....
thats why my lsit will have only the names of goaltenders from the past 20 years

1. Hasek
2. Roy
3. Brodeur
4. Tretiak (ok hes a bit older but i saw at least a little from him)
5. Richter
6. Belfour
7. Fuhr
8. Barasso
9. Vanbiesbrouck
10. Joseph
Richter ahead of Belfour and Fuhr? Come on now, RangersFan ...

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Old
09-04-2006, 03:01 PM
  #113
seventieslord
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International championships????
International chamnpionships take 5 games to win. I value them that much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
It amazes me how many people overrate Patrick Roy.

Seems fairly equal but stats favour Brodeur - and check out the shutouts and seasons with 40 or more wins. Also Brodeur is on pace to surpass Roy for career wins. Also Brodeur has been more durable.
Shutouts do not matter. Regular season wins do not matter. These are not accomplishments. And they can't be compared across eras. In the late 80's, the top goaleis had 4-5 shutouts; in Brodeur's day they had 8-13. I already addressed the regular season wins issue, it's closed.

Vezinas, cups, conn smythes, these are accomplishments. As for durability, I don't think either goalie has been felled by a season-ending injury, and both have played every 2nd day for 2 months on their way to the finals 4-5 times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Three Stanley Cups each.
Four for Roy, actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Brodeur has the Calder, three Jennings trophies, two Vezinas, five 40 win seasons thus far in his career.

Roy has three Conn Smythes, five Jennings, three Vezinas, one 40 win season..
Calder does not matter one bit. Roy has Brodeur beaten in Jennings trophies, but I'll be fair to you and point out that those matter very, very little as well, it's mostly a team award. The best goalie wins the Vezina. The goalie on the best team wins the Jennings. Sometimes it's the same goalie, sometimes not. Really what matters is cups, smythes, vezinas. Roy has him beaten by 1, 3, and 1, respectively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Brodeur
Regular season
813GP 446W 2.21GAA .912Sv% 80S/O

Post Season
153GP 89W 1.88GAA .923Sv Percentage 21S/O


Roy
Regular season
1029GP 551W 2.54GAA .910Sv% 66S/O

Post Season
247GP 151W 2.30GAA .918Sv% 23S/O

As I said pretty much even at this point - toss a coin.

But Brodeur has the chance to move ahead of Roy over the next few seasons IMHO.

YMMV
Those stats would only be valid if Roy and Brodeur were the same age and played in the league for the eact same seasons. But Roy played 8 years before Brodeur ever played, and Brodeur is likely going to play 7 seasons past Roy's retirement. The "New NHL" will have a small hand in evening things out, but not enough to compensate for the last boring few years. Just like you can't compare Roy's GAA to Dryden's GAA to Sawchuk's GAA, you can't compare Roy and Brodeur in this way. The league changes, scoring goes up and down, equipment changes, etc. All you can do is judge a goalie's performance by where it ranked vs. the rest of the league at that time. Roy would have even more wins if he played in a time where star goalies played 70+ games. He didn't. He'd have more shutouts and a lower GAA if he never played in the high scoring late 80's and early 90's where being under 3.00 was a rarity. But he did. Conversely, I can say the opposite for Brodeur. To put things into perspective, Brodeur has only been 2nd in the league in save% once. Roy has been first 5 times, second 3 times, and third once. Now when compared as if they are apples and apples it looke like Brodeur owns Roy in pure stats, but if I had some sort of formula to judge these things based on era (and I don't, unfortunately) I am sure Roy would come out ahead, not hugely, but enough to declare him a better regular season goalie. Factoring in all the relevant accomplishments, it would be Roy hands down.

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09-04-2006, 03:08 PM
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if I had some sort of formula to judge these things based on era (and I don't, unfortunately)
I've done some form of era-neutralization, at least back through 1982-83 (which conveniently covers both Roy's and Brodeur's full careers):

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=253883

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09-04-2006, 03:08 PM
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Now, I'm not one to generally defend Patrick Roy because I think he gets a little overrated. However, his career accomplishments are better than Brodeur's.

He has 4 cups, for the record. The calder and Jennings are nice, but not particularily important. Roy has more vezina's (not that that couldn't change by the time Brodeur is done), but the 3 Conn Smyth's are what really tips the scales. That's damn impressive. To be fair to Brodeur though, he should have won it in 2003.
I agree, the smythes are what really tip the scales for me too. As for Brodeur and the 2003 smythe, I have talked about this on another board, I don't feel like forming another case, so here it is, taken out of context....

------------------------------
As for 2003, it had to go to Giguere, there was just no other way with the disgusting numbers he put up through the first three rounds. 12-2 for chrissake, GAA roughly 1.10. yikes. Brodeur might have finally been his team's MVP that playoff and might have taken the smythe, however, another goalie was better and that was out of his control. Those shutouts of his came at the height of the trapping, old NHL and I don't put too much weight on them. Plus, i bet in those 3 shutouts combined he faced as many shots as the leafs did in some games last season. Wins talk though, and he did win the cup.
------------------------
Like I said, Brodeur was (finally) his team's MVP that year and he would have been his team's most deserving winner. However, he had a LOT more help than Giguere did. No fewer than TWELVE of Giguere's 15 wins were by one goal. To have that kind of save percentage, knowing that if it was even something like .935 or .930 they wouldn't have been in the finals, that is something pretty special. Brodeur had to win only 4 games by a goal that year - you can't really talk about how he played under pressure, because he never really got a chance to! His devils scored 2.63 GPG to Anaheim's 2.14. So if they put up similar numbers, it would be much easier to declare Gigure better or more valuable to his team, but considering his numbers were far better (and when you're talking about letting in 5.5% of shots as opposed to 6.6%, that is far better - on any given shot faced, Brodeur was 20% more likely to allow a goal than Giguere was - that's huge!) ... sorry for the long side note, where was I? oh yeah, considering his numbers were not just equal, but better, there was no option but to give him the award.

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09-04-2006, 03:31 PM
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Here is the thing; about every year Brodeur is top 3 in games played; Roy has only lead the league in that once. In 1988, a year Roy lead the league in SV% 15 goalies played more games than him. In the time Roy and Brodeur were in the league together Brodeur has routinely played over 70 games and Roy never has. Brodeur, simply has played a great percentage of his teams games. And I am very justified to believe playing more games effects your statistics. In 2003 Turco plays 55 games and has a .932 sv%, 12 playoff and 73 regular season games later he has a .913 sv%. In 2004 Kiprusoff plays 38 games and has a .933 sv%. 26 playoff and 74 regular season games later it's .923 (still great though, but significantly lower). There's a reason these guys didn't win the Vezina after having great save percentages that year; they didn't play enough games to justify winning the award. As you play more games you get fatigued and your play suffers. How many times did Roy lead the league in save percentage when he was on the Avalanche and was playing more games than his early Montreal days?
Well now you're pointing to the times a goalie led the league in games played - sure, durability is important, but performance is key. There is no evidence to suggest Roy was incapable of playing that many games if the mindset at the time was that a starting goalie should do so. And if games played were important, who says 70+ games has to be some standard of excellence? from 1991-92 until the end of his career, Roy played between 61 and 68 games per season, plus 43 in the lockout season which would be 73 in 82 games. While Brodeur's performance in most seasons has been obviously excellent and consistently top 5, the fact remains that he hasn't had the best save percentage in the leage, ever. If your argument about game played = lower save% were true, then Brodeur would start out every season with great numbers and taper off as he wears down. We'd also see it happen a lot more with other goalies. We do, but we also see goalies have terrible starts and make up for it later. A season is a season. There's no correlation between games and performance when talking about elite, star goaltenders. Turco is one great example to boost your case, but if you're using Kipper you're grasping for straws. His .923 in the new NHL is more impressive than a .932 in the old NHL, so he actually got better with more games. So much for that... As for not winning the vezinas, Kipper never would have, I agree. 38 games is too little. Turco's 55 games would have been enough if it was the late 80's and that's what most starting goalies had.


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Well firstoff you forget Larry Robinson, Rob Blake, and Ray Bourque for that short stretch; three HOF defensement you conveniently forget to mention. Secondly, yeah Brodeur had Stevens and Niedermayer, but did he have anything nearly as good as Sakic and Forsberg at center on his teams? How many games did he win because of Sakic's clutch play? Thus, I think it is unfair to not "care" about his forwards as they have as much to do with winning as he did. Thirdly, comparing team records show very little as goalies play on these teams and are helping them win? How do we know how much one goalie is helping over another? As Brodeur plays more than Roy, you could say he is helping his team more as you can't help your team win if you don't play. Secordly, I looked at the records of both these goalies backups a while back and saw that the winning percentage of Brodeur's backups was lower than the winning percentage of Roy's backups, indicating Brodeur again was more important to his team winning games. All this is very nit picky and doesn't prove much as both goalies have proven to be important for their respective teams.
I agree, this is nitpicky. They obviously both had a lot to do with their teams' successes. If they are equals as you say, then the only other difference in their teams' regular season records comes from the rest of the team. I've already conceded that there is no significant difference. We've discussed the players enough, and it's safe to say that while we disagree a bit there, it's no worse than 5% in anyone's favour there. (5 years of prime Chelios, 4 years of aging Robinson, 8 years of prime Foote, 1 year of aging Bourque, and 3 years of "questionable defensively" Blake, vs. an entire career behind Niedermayer and Stevens, one of which was a top-3 defensive defensemen in the league the entire time, and the other who was consistently called a top-6 NHL defenseman for his all-around play but was far from a defensive question mark and controlled the puck so well that it could be called a defensive tactic) - I am willing to call that even too. So, let's jsut call it even teams and even players and move on

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From what I saw, I believe Roy's record is game 7s is 6-6 and Brodeurs is 5-3. And yeah, the OT records are very different, however, IMO game 7s are more important than OT, because you can lose in OT and still have a shot to win the series, unless it is an elimination game. All game 7s are elimination games (duh). As long we we bring up other all time greats OT records, I believe Sawchuk has a 4-8 record in OT, lets take him out of the hall of fame.
Well obviously not. game 7 record is something that can be taken into consideration, just like OT record, but it's not everything. I still think the discrepancy in OT records is huge and very telling. We both know Brodeur could lose 20 straight OT games from here on and he'd still make the hall, so don't be silly

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Well, as you can see, Brodeur is the only one of those goalies with a winning record in game 7s. Secondly, how is a loss in OT of a game 1 or 2 as big as losing a game 7?

As I said, Brodeur isn't as great as Roy. Comparing the two now is like comparing Roy to Plante and Sawchuk when he still had 6 years left in his career. What happens over the next 6 years of Brodeur's career will determine where he stands in comparison to the very best goalies ever.
obviously a game 7 is more important. But any time a game goes into OT, it's next goal wins. That's pressure. There are obviously other factors, but Roy proved that he can keep the puck out until his team scores, over TWO THIRDS of the time! Brodeur has been successful in this one-third of the time.

He's got some ground to make up, but when his career is said and done, he cannot be any lower than 7th.

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09-04-2006, 03:43 PM
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I've done some form of era-neutralization, at least back through 1982-83 (which conveniently covers both Roy's and Brodeur's full careers):

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=253883
I just checked out this thread, and it oozes merit. It's a good read and the logic is hard to deny.

When I get around to it I can also look at my 1998 edition of "total hockey" and see what Roy and Brodeur's efficiency ratings were like. Can't remember how it's devised, but I remember reading that it was devised to attempt to erase the generation gap.

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09-04-2006, 04:00 PM
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International chamnpionships take 5 games to win. I value them that much.
In your opinion - I disagree.

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Shutouts do not matter. Regular season wins do not matter. These are not accomplishments. And they can't be compared across eras. In the late 80's, the top goaleis had 4-5 shutouts; in Brodeur's day they had 8-13. I already addressed the regular season wins issue, it's closed..
Only in your opinion - I disagree.

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Calder does not matter one bit. Roy has Brodeur beaten in Jennings trophies, but I'll be fair to you and point out that those matter very, very little as well, it's mostly a team award. The best goalie wins the Vezina. The goalie on the best team wins the Jennings. Sometimes it's the same goalie, sometimes not. Really what matters is cups, smythes, vezinas. Roy has him beaten by 1, 3, and 1, respectively.
Brodeur is still in the prime of his career - check back in 5-6 years.

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Factoring in all the relevant accomplishments, it would be Roy hands down.
In your opinion - I disagree.

You can "win" any argument if you skew the parameters beyond all recognition.

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09-04-2006, 04:06 PM
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I just checked out this thread, and it oozes merit. It's a good read and the logic is hard to deny.
Thanks! I had a good time putting it together - and am looking forward to obtaining earlier season save percentage totals/estimates (some are available, but it's spotty at best).

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09-04-2006, 04:22 PM
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In your opinion - I disagree.


Only in your opinion - I disagree.


Brodeur is still in the prime of his career - check back in 5-6 years.


In your opinion - I disagree.

You can "win" any argument if you skew the parameters beyond all recognition.
We're talking about entire careers here. Roy had only one shot in the olympics and he lost - we already talked about this. Brodeur has had two shots. In both, he played well. In one of them, his team played well, he won. In the other, his team was brutal, he lost. The fact remains that it takes 5 games to win it, this is obviously higher quality hockey but for Roy it's 5 out of 1300 career games he played, and for Brodeur, what, 16-17 of the 1000 games he has played? Nothing really, in the long run.

If you feel that wins and shutouts can be compared as apples to apples across eras, please explain exactly how this can be done and why it is fair. I've already explained why it isnt and you've just said I'm skewing parameters. Instead of dismissing it as my opinion, I'd like to know, what exactly is yours?

In 5-6 years Brodeur will be done. By then, you are right, he could have more vezinas, cups, and maybe that elusive conn smythe. You sound almost convinced that he WILL, though. What are we talking about here? Who's better all-time, or who will be? A lot of things have to go right for Brodeur to catch up on those awards. A betting man would not bet that a certain player would win a vezina or a cup within the next few years. The odds are still against it happening. And if it didn't happen, then what would you say? Brodeur may still be in his prime, but don't make that into an excuse for him. The past is what has already happened, and the future, obviously, hasn't.

And if you disagree about relevant accomplishments, then humour me for a second. Pick your 5 most important accomplishments that a goalie can achieve and assign them each a point value and add up how many points each goalie would have. Obviously to put Brodeur ahead you would have to underrate cups, vezinas, and smythes (as Roy has a lot more), and overrate two other factors - it will be interesting to see.

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09-04-2006, 04:31 PM
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We're talking about entire careers here. Roy had only one shot in the olympics and he lost - we already talked about this. Brodeur has had two shots. In both, he played well. In one of them, his team played well, he won. In the other, his team was brutal, he lost. The fact remains that it takes 5 games to win it, this is obviously higher quality hockey but for Roy it's 5 out of 1300 career games he played, and for Brodeur, what, 16-17 of the 1000 games he has played? Nothing really, in the long run.

If you feel that wins and shutouts can be compared as apples to apples across eras, please explain exactly how this can be done and why it is fair. I've already explained why it isnt and you've just said I'm skewing parameters. Instead of dismissing it as my opinion, I'd like to know, what exactly is yours?

In 5-6 years Brodeur will be done. By then, you are right, he could have more vezinas, cups, and maybe that elusive conn smythe. You sound almost convinced that he WILL, though. What are we talking about here? Who's better all-time, or who will be? A lot of things have to go right for Brodeur to catch up on those awards. A betting man would not bet that a certain player would win a vezina or a cup within the next few years. The odds are still against it happening. And if it didn't happen, then what would you say? Brodeur may still be in his prime, but don't make that into an excuse for him. The past is what has already happened, and the future, obviously, hasn't.

And if you disagree about relevant accomplishments, then humour me for a second. Pick your 5 most important accomplishments that a goalie can achieve and assign them each a point value and add up how many points each goalie would have. Obviously to put Brodeur ahead you would have to underrate cups, vezinas, and smythes (as Roy has a lot more), and overrate two other factors - it will be interesting to see.
You use your criteria and I will use mine. This is an opinion. Mine differs. As I pointed out in my intial post it is difficult to compare across eras and particulalrly with goaltenders.

Nevertheless IMHO Brodeur and Roy currently sit about even but Brodeur has a number of seasons ahead of him to move ahead of Roy.

That is what makes horse races and court cases. YMMV.

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09-04-2006, 05:00 PM
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You use your criteria and I will use mine. This is an opinion. Mine differs. As I pointed out in my intial post it is difficult to compare across eras and particulalrly with goaltenders.

Nevertheless IMHO Brodeur and Roy currently sit about even but Brodeur has a number of seasons ahead of him to move ahead of Roy.

That is what makes horse races and court cases. YMMV.
But by what criteria can you say they even sit even right now?

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09-04-2006, 05:29 PM
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But by what criteria can you say they even sit even right now?
I gave you my criteria - you choose to employ different ones with different weightings. C'est la vie.

The test I would apply to decide:

If you could choose Marty Brodeur or Patrick Roy as rookies today with full knowledge of their past careers to date - who would you choose?

My choice would be Brodeur. YMMV.

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09-04-2006, 08:17 PM
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I gave you my criteria - you choose to employ different ones with different weightings. C'est la vie.
Could you summarize them, perchance, for those of us who joined the party late?

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09-05-2006, 12:00 AM
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I gave you my criteria - you choose to employ different ones with different weightings. C'est la vie.

The test I would apply to decide:

If you could choose Marty Brodeur or Patrick Roy as rookies today with full knowledge of their past careers to date - who would you choose?

My choice would be Brodeur. YMMV.
I guess it just depends how many Stanley cups you want...

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