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Trade Proposal from nomorekids (Involves Timonen)

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06-04-2006, 10:01 PM
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Ducksforcup
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Trade Proposal from nomorekids (Involves Timonen)

Found this on the Trade Rumors Section. (Proposal orginally proposed by 76over, amended by nomorekids).

Vitaly Vishnevski and Stanislav Chistov for Kimmo Timonen and Libor Pivko

What do you guys think? I personally think it is a good deal (From the Ducks perspective).

http://hockeysfuture.com/prospect/libor_pivko

Wanted to know the opinion of the Music City faithful.

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06-04-2006, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducksforcup
Found this on the Trade Rumors Section. (Proposal orginally proposed by 76over, amended by nomorekids).

Vitaly Vishnevski and Stanislav Chistov for Kimmo Timonen and Libor Pivko

What do you guys think? I personally think it is a good deal (From the Ducks perspective).

http://hockeysfuture.com/prospect/libor_pivko

Wanted to know the opinion of the Music City faithful.
I am not a Nashville fan, but I think that's a decent deal.

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06-04-2006, 10:45 PM
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Chistov strikes me as a guy that could benefit from a new environment, and his offensive ability is undeniable. I think he even plays center...perhaps he'd benefit from playing with Radulov?

Vishnevski is a beast, and while I think Timonen's OVERALL game is better, Vish is a guy that our team needs even more. I like it.

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06-04-2006, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
Chistov strikes me as a guy that could benefit from a new environment, and his offensive ability is undeniable. I think he even plays center...perhaps he'd benefit from playing with Radulov?

Vishnevski is a beast, and while I think Timonen's OVERALL game is better, Vish is a guy that our team needs even more. I like it.
Can you give me a little synopsis of Kimmo and Libor please?

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06-04-2006, 11:07 PM
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Can someone give me a little synopsis of Vitaly Vishnevski and Stanislav Chistov please?

Anyhoo...

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06-04-2006, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Ducksforcup
Can you give me a little synopsis of Kimmo and Libor please?

kimmo is an all-around type of d-man. his true value is his offensive game, particularly on the power play. good first pass, excellent vision, great skater.

he's better than the average offensive d-man in his own end, as well. he saw tons of penalty kill time for us.

as for pivko, he's a decent playmaker\excellent defensive forward. could probably play on a third or fourth line in the NHL now.

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06-04-2006, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Beauty Personified
Can someone give me a little synopsis of Vitaly Vishnevski and Stanislav Chistov please?

Anyhoo...
Vishnevski: Good stay-at-home defensemen that consistently is one of the leaders in the NHL in hits. He is an EXCELLENT hitter and he made at least ten huge hits this year. (Best one was on Gregory Campbell...oh man. After the hit, the stadium went silent). Tends to get out of postition at times because of this, but otherwise is completley solid. His offensive game is zilch though, but that is not his role anyway.

Chistov: Had a good rookie season. Great hands and good speed. His biggest problem is his motivation, which he can't seem to relocate.

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06-05-2006, 02:13 AM
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Its basically Kimmo for Vishnevski. Chistov doesn't hold a lot of value at this point although he is immensley more talented than Pivko. I think if Nashville makes this deal, we would be fine, but I think the venture on Chistov would ultimately prove fatal. Still, I wouldn't't mind taking the gamble. I think the Ducks probably win the deal as it stands, though.

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06-05-2006, 06:43 AM
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I hope Timonen can play in a team where he's appreciated, apparently not in here.

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06-05-2006, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by edd1e
I hope Timonen can play in a team where he's appreciated, apparently not in here.
Not appreciated in Nashville? Umm, what the...?

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06-05-2006, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by edd1e
I hope Timonen can play in a team where he's appreciated, apparently not in here.
I'd say there are times where he is underappreciated. I find myself grumbling about some of the stuff he does and then admiring his savvy as I replay in my mind the situation that upset me. A lot of what he does goes unnoticed, but I don't think it's necessarily lack of appreciation that has Predator fans looking to trade him. I think it has more to do with the fact that we see his value on the market. With his nominal salary and overall production, this guy is a great deal to be had. But the Predators have an overabundance of smaller defenseman with offensive skills. And Timonen, because of our lack of NHL-experienced defensive-minded blueliners, has been forced into a role that he's just not suited for.

Timonen shouldn't be playing 25 minutes a night if 5 of those are short-handed. It wears him down because he's always going to be battling larger, stronger forwards down low with minimal help. He's just not suited for that role. He'd be ideal for a second line role, in my opinion, where he'd see 20-21 minutes of ice time (13 ES, 6 PP, 1-2 SH), and he wouldn't face the opposition's top line night in and night out. Unfortunately, the Predators don't have the luxury of moving him into that role without moving another defenseman, one who either cannot perform it (Eaton), has similar limitations to Timonen (Zidlicky), or is too young (Weber), into Timonen's old spot on the first pairing.

The acquisition of someone like Vishnevsky gives us someone who probably isn't perfectly suited to first pairing duty, but he's a guy who would probably pair well with someone like Dan Hamhuis, who is ready for that duty. Vish is a guy who can pull SH duty down as well.

Chistov is what makes this deal for me, though. I love what Chistov brings to the table offensively. I think he's the type of guy that we can bring over and give him some ice time early on and regenerate the value that he has in the NHL. If we were to bring him in and open up the game a little bit, he can put up some great numbers very early on with the right supporting cast. The new NHL is tailored to this guy's dynamic offensive game. He needs work defensively, but I think it would certainly be worth a shot to attempt to teach him discipline. He could also make Erat expendable without having to force Radulov into the lineup. And then, when the time comes, we can chose to either keep Chistov or trade him and bring up Radulov.

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06-05-2006, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
I'd say there are times where he is underappreciated. I find myself grumbling about some of the stuff he does and then admiring his savvy as I replay in my mind the situation that upset me. A lot of what he does goes unnoticed, but I don't think it's necessarily lack of appreciation that has Predator fans looking to trade him. I think it has more to do with the fact that we see his value on the market. With his nominal salary and overall production, this guy is a great deal to be had. But the Predators have an overabundance of smaller defenseman with offensive skills. And Timonen, because of our lack of NHL-experienced defensive-minded blueliners, has been forced into a role that he's just not suited for.

Timonen shouldn't be playing 25 minutes a night if 5 of those are short-handed. It wears him down because he's always going to be battling larger, stronger forwards down low with minimal help. He's just not suited for that role. He'd be ideal for a second line role, in my opinion, where he'd see 20-21 minutes of ice time (13 ES, 6 PP, 1-2 SH), and he wouldn't face the opposition's top line night in and night out. Unfortunately, the Predators don't have the luxury of moving him into that role without moving another defenseman, one who either cannot perform it (Eaton), has similar limitations to Timonen (Zidlicky), or is too young (Weber), into Timonen's old spot on the first pairing.

The acquisition of someone like Vishnevsky gives us someone who probably isn't perfectly suited to first pairing duty, but he's a guy who would probably pair well with someone like Dan Hamhuis, who is ready for that duty. Vish is a guy who can pull SH duty down as well.

Chistov is what makes this deal for me, though. I love what Chistov brings to the table offensively. I think he's the type of guy that we can bring over and give him some ice time early on and regenerate the value that he has in the NHL. If we were to bring him in and open up the game a little bit, he can put up some great numbers very early on with the right supporting cast. The new NHL is tailored to this guy's dynamic offensive game. He needs work defensively, but I think it would certainly be worth a shot to attempt to teach him discipline. He could also make Erat expendable without having to force Radulov into the lineup. And then, when the time comes, we can chose to either keep Chistov or trade him and bring up Radulov.
yeah, well you guys are still prolly the first one's who's happy to trade a legit #1 D for a 2nd pair D, i dont know, mayby it's my lack of knowledge in english or something, but thats what it looks to me.

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06-05-2006, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by tachyon
Not appreciated in Nashville? Umm, what the...?
Do you even read what they're saying? apparently the fans dont appreciate him, and if this trade is true neighter does the managment.

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06-05-2006, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by edd1e
Do you even read what they're saying? apparently the fans dont appreciate him, and if this trade is true neighter does the managment.
eddi1....I don't know whether there is a language barrier here or not, but nobody is saying that we don't appreciate him [please re-read SmokeyClause's response above]...and this is just an HF board trade proposal and not even a real rumor.


Anyway...this trade looks intriguing valuewise, but the thing that I don't like about it is that it trades arguably our most valued veteran tradeable asset and still doesn't get us what we truely need....a legitimate #1/2 center.....so until that is accomplished, I wouldn't consider proceeding with a deal like this.....


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06-05-2006, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edd1e
yeah, well you guys are still prolly the first one's who's happy to trade a legit #1 D for a 2nd pair D, i dont know, mayby it's my lack of knowledge in english or something, but thats what it looks to me.
While I think Timonen is a superior defenseman to Vishnevski, I do not consider him a legit #1 D. He has too many issues in his own zone to be consider a #1. I think he's somewhere between a #2/#3 defenseman depending on who that #1 is on the team. We've acknowledged the downgrade from Vishnevski to Timonen through the imbalance between the additional aspects of the trade (Chistov v. Pivko). Chistov still has significant potential and while his value has dropped since 2002, he's still a valuable asset. Does the difference in value between Chistov and Pivko make up for the difference in value between Timonen and Vishnevski, that's debatable, and something that is being grappled with.

Remember one thing though, we've watched Timonen play on the NHL level since 1998. Most of us saw him play upwards of 50 games this season. And our association with Timonen (and subsequent bias) stems from his relationship to the Predators and little else. We value him based on that. He gains significant value in the eyes of many Finnish hockey fans for his contribution to their national team. That has little bearing in this discussion here.


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06-05-2006, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
Remember one thing though, we've watched Timonen play on the NHL level since 1998. Most of us saw him play upwards of 200 games. And our association with Timonen (and subsequent bias) stems from his relationship to the Predators and little else. We value him based on that. He gains significant value in the eyes of many Finnish hockey fans for his contribution to their national team. That has little bearing in this discussion here.
There we go...Fixed that .

And Handtrick, I agree.

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06-05-2006, 03:36 PM
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There we go...Fixed that .

And Handtrick, I agree.
Actually, I meant this season alone. I'll make the necessary correction.

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06-05-2006, 08:05 PM
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I have little interest in Chistov.... No way would he automatically make Erat expendable. Small, lazy Russian who scored 15g in the AHL as a 22 year old. And since when due we need another small LW?

I'd be game for moving Timonen if the right deal comes along. Timonen is UFA in after next year, and would probably require a significant raise to re-sign him. Vishneski is intriguing, but Chistov wouldn’t have a place on the team.

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06-06-2006, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by dulzhok
I have little interest in Chistov.... No way would he automatically make Erat expendable. Small, lazy Russian who scored 15g in the AHL as a 22 year old. And since when due we need another small LW?

I'd be game for moving Timonen if the right deal comes along. Timonen is UFA in after next year, and would probably require a significant raise to re-sign him. Vishneski is intriguing, but Chistov wouldn’t have a place on the team.
Who says he makes Erat automatically expendable? I know my grammar is often weak, but since when was automatically a synonym of could? I said that the possibility exists that he could supplant Erat. I don't think there is any certainty involved due to his recent past, but I think it is a distinct possibility. Erat and Chistov have some interesting career parallels. Both had really impressive rookie years at young ages (Chistov at 19, Erat at 20). Both followed it up with lackluster starts to their sophomore seasons. Both were sent down in midseason. Erat responded better, but not by a landslide. But where Erat was able to earn a roster spot on the team due to a great camp, Chistov had to endure the lockout. He stayed in the A during the lockout and put up decent but not great numbers for his talent. He was in Russia last year and was one of the best players on the best team in the RSL.

He is clearly a gamble, but I think it is a risk worth taking, especially in the new NHL. With the same effort and patience by Trotz that was shown to Erat, Chistov can potentially be a very valued addition to any team in the NHL. I don't necessarily view him as a long-term solution on the Preds. But I think if the price is right, he's a very smart gamble because of the risk/reward relationship that is present.

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06-06-2006, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
Who says he makes Erat automatically expendable? I know my grammar is often weak, but since when was automatically a synonym of could? I said that the possibility exists that he could supplant Erat. I don't think there is any certainty involved due to his recent past, but I think it is a distinct possibility. Erat and Chistov have some interesting career parallels. Both had really impressive rookie years at young ages (Chistov at 19, Erat at 20). Both followed it up with lackluster starts to their sophomore seasons. Both were sent down in midseason. Erat responded better, but not by a landslide. But where Erat was able to earn a roster spot on the team due to a great camp, Chistov had to endure the lockout. He stayed in the A during the lockout and put up decent but not great numbers for his talent. He was in Russia last year and was one of the best players on the best team in the RSL.

He is clearly a gamble, but I think it is a risk worth taking, especially in the new NHL. With the same effort and patience by Trotz that was shown to Erat, Chistov can potentially be a very valued addition to any team in the NHL. I don't necessarily view him as a long-term solution on the Preds. But I think if the price is right, he's a very smart gamble because of the risk/reward relationship that is present.
There is a slight chance, but I certainly wouldn't gamble Erat on it.

1) There's simply no space for him... we have enough trouble giving our current wingers an appropriate roll, and we still don't have room for one of the best prospects in hockey.

2) Of our current young guns, Erat is the best offensive player we‘ve got, and he hasn't peaked yet.

3) Small, lazy, soft... Yes, he’s got an offensive touch that he *might* be able discover in the NHL, but even if he does, this is the opposite of the kind of playoff player we should be building around.

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06-07-2006, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by dulzhok
There is a slight chance, but I certainly wouldn't gamble Erat on it.

1) There's simply no space for him... we have enough trouble giving our current wingers an appropriate roll, and we still don't have room for one of the best prospects in hockey.

2) Of our current young guns, Erat is the best offensive player we‘ve got, and he hasn't peaked yet.

3) Small, lazy, soft... Yes, he’s got an offensive touch that he *might* be able discover in the NHL, but even if he does, this is the opposite of the kind of playoff player we should be building around.
While I respect that you don't feel it's a gamble worth taking, I would argue that space can be created as needed. If we were to acquire Chistov in a month, I think we could get a fair evaluation of how he's going to play for Trotzy through the camps and the preseason. From there, you can make a determination on whether to keep him or trade someone else. If he's going to be lazy, then you'll see it in camp and preseason. If he's going to shirk his defensive responsibilities, you are going to see it. If the gamble is going to fail, you'll probably see it before you make a foolish trade to open up a winger spot.

While Erat is the best young gun we've got, Chistov has significantly more offensive talent. He's not perfect, but I think with the proper coaching, he'll be a great fit for the new NHL. We all keep touting Erat's numbers, but taking ice time into consideration, he was only the 6th most productive forward on the team in terms of points per minute. He wasn't nearly as effective as he should be. We can keep touting the kid or recognize that he might never grasp his potential. We seem quick here to jump on Legwand as someone who'll never fulfill the potential he was drafted for, but Erat has shown immense potential yet has the production of a middle-of-the-road second liner.

I know that Erat doesn't get near the quality ice time that you think he deserves, but he hasn't done a great job with what he's been given. And he certainly hasn't shown enough to get anywhere near the highest quality ice time on the team. Erat will be 25 before the start of next season. We've all been waiting for his breakout year, but is it realistic to think he's going to reveal a side of himself that we've never seen for an entire season, especially getting the ice time that he's going to get (15 mpg, 3 PPmgp)? If he's really as good as you say he is, then he'll have significant value on the market. And I think that might be were to put him because I'm not confident he'll ever been given the ice time he'll need to put up significant points.

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06-07-2006, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
While I respect that you don't feel it's a gamble worth taking, I would argue that space can be created as needed. If we were to acquire Chistov in a month, I think we could get a fair evaluation of how he's going to play for Trotzy through the camps and the preseason. From there, you can make a determination on whether to keep him or trade someone else. If he's going to be lazy, then you'll see it in camp and preseason. If he's going to shirk his defensive responsibilities, you are going to see it. If the gamble is going to fail, you'll probably see it before you make a foolish trade to open up a winger spot.

While Erat is the best young gun we've got, Chistov has significantly more offensive talent. He's not perfect, but I think with the proper coaching, he'll be a great fit for the new NHL. We all keep touting Erat's numbers, but taking ice time into consideration, he was only the 6th most productive forward on the team in terms of points per minute. He wasn't nearly as effective as he should be. We can keep touting the kid or recognize that he might never grasp his potential. We seem quick here to jump on Legwand as someone who'll never fulfill the potential he was drafted for, but Erat has shown immense potential yet has the production of a middle-of-the-road second liner.

I know that Erat doesn't get near the quality ice time that you think he deserves, but he hasn't done a great job with what he's been given. And he certainly hasn't shown enough to get anywhere near the highest quality ice time on the team. Erat will be 25 before the start of next season. We've all been waiting for his breakout year, but is it realistic to think he's going to reveal a side of himself that we've never seen for an entire season, especially getting the ice time that he's going to get (15 mpg, 3 PPmgp)? If he's really as good as you say he is, then he'll have significant value on the market. And I think that might be were to put him because I'm not confident he'll ever been given the ice time he'll need to put up significant points.
I don't know what makes Erat a better offensive player than Hartnell, to be honest. Hartnell had 5 more goals while playing ridiculous doghouse minutes.

Erat, while he improved, still seems all flash, no finish to me.

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06-08-2006, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by nomorekids
I don't know what makes Erat a better offensive player than Hartnell, to be honest. Hartnell had 5 more goals while playing ridiculous doghouse minutes.

Erat, while he improved, still seems all flash, no finish to me.
Hartnell had more total ice time a game and more powerplay ice time a game, so I don't see how Hartnell had "doghouse" minutes compared to Erat.

Difference is type of goals. Hartnell had his share of "garbage goals." While we certainly need someone to crash the net and get the garbage goals, it takes more offensive talent to create the goals that Erat created / cashed in on. I think Hartnell is more than just a crash the net type of guy, but Erat has more offensive skill, IMO.

20 goals in 14 minutes of ice time is bad production? I bet there's less than 10 guys in the league that can say that. And Erat's PP time was often "the left over" powerplay minutes after Kariya and Sullivan failed to convert.

Perreault is one of the few other NHLers this year that put up as many goal in as little ice time (14 minutes or less).

I stand by by statement.... Vishneski for Timonen might interest me, but I don't want to gamble Erat for a high-risk Chistov, who even if he pans out, isn't the type of player we need.

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06-08-2006, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by dulzhok
Hartnell had more total ice time a game and more powerplay ice time a game, so I don't see how Hartnell had "doghouse" minutes compared to Erat.

Difference is type of goals. Hartnell had his share of "garbage goals." While we certainly need someone to crash the net and get the garbage goals, it takes more offensive talent to create the goals that Erat created / cashed in on. I think Hartnell is more than just a crash the net type of guy, but Erat has more offensive skill, IMO.

20 goals in 14 minutes of ice time is bad production? I bet there's less than 10 guys in the league that can say that. And Erat's PP time was often "the left over" powerplay minutes after Kariya and Sullivan failed to convert.

Perreault is one of the few other NHLers this year that put up as many goal in as little ice time (14 minutes or less).

I stand by by statement.... Vishneski for Timonen might interest me, but I don't want to gamble Erat for a high-risk Chistov, who even if he pans out, isn't the type of player we need.

I don't think the idea is Timonen\Erat for Vish\Chistov...I think it was Timonen\Pivko for Chistov\Vishnevski. I DO still think that Erat is one of our more expendable players, but I would be more interested in flipping him for a 1\2 center to go along with Legwand(who you, conversely, feel is expendable).

We'll see, though.

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06-09-2006, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok
Hartnell had more total ice time a game and more powerplay ice time a game, so I don't see how Hartnell had "doghouse" minutes compared to Erat.

Difference is type of goals. Hartnell had his share of "garbage goals." While we certainly need someone to crash the net and get the garbage goals, it takes more offensive talent to create the goals that Erat created / cashed in on. I think Hartnell is more than just a crash the net type of guy, but Erat has more offensive skill, IMO.
The numbers I came up with are even at 54 points. If each player played 11 minutes of ES ice time, 4 minutes of power play time, and 3 shorthanded, their numbers prorate out to 22 goals and 32 assists for Erat and 28 goals and 26 assists for Hartnell. It's hardly a foolproof method to compare players, but at least it attempts to even out ice time without arbitrarily assigned certain value to minutes.

Interestingly enough, the #2 player production-wise is Scottie Upshall. His numbers ended up being 23 goals and 46 assists. He was behind Sullivan and slightly ahead of guys like Kariya and Perreault. The tier below them included Sillinger, Erat, and Hartnell in that order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok
20 goals in 14 minutes of ice time is bad production? I bet there's less than 10 guys in the league that can say that. And Erat's PP time was often "the left over" powerplay minutes after Kariya and Sullivan failed to convert.

Perreault is one of the few other NHLers this year that put up as many goal in as little ice time (14 minutes or less).
There actually 15 players that had less ice time than Erat that had at least 20 goals. And there are several that only played around 50-60 games that were right at 18 or 19 goals. It's impressive, but it's not uncommon. In fact, a team is more likely than not to have a guy with Erat's minutes (or less) who matched or exceeded Erats goal totals.

There are five, including Perreault, that scored as many goals with only 30 seconds per game more in ice time. The numbers are even more startling when you include players that have played as many total minutes as Erat. I'm not counting them, but I'd venture to say that at least 30 players had 20 or more goals with equal to or less than the ice time Erat received.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok
I stand by by statement.... Vishneski for Timonen might interest me, but I don't want to gamble Erat for a high-risk Chistov, who even if he pans out, isn't the type of player we need.
If he pans out, he's more the type of player that we need than Erat is. And a trade that lands Chistov doesn't have to be one that pencils him in as a top 6 winger for the next half decade. I look at it more like acquiring assets. A player like Chistov, if he regains his form, has immense value on the market. He could be a very useful asset that could help us satisfy our big need(s).

In fact, there's little rush to force him over next year. He could stay over in the RSL for one more year before coming back over. That could give Erat a one-year moratorium on his departure and ample time to prove he can become what you believe he's capable of.

Acquiring Chistov is a gamble, but I think it's one that can pay huge dividends. If it only comes at the cost of Timonen minus Vishnevski, I think it is very much a worthwhile gamble.

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