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Rumor: Jack Johnson might be offered for (Pens') number two pick

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Old
06-12-2006, 01:12 PM
  #26
Jaded-Fan
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This rumor is not that far fetched, for a few reasons. Staal (or any of the other top three, perhaps top five prospects) is very comparable as a prospect to last years top five (outside of Crosby of course). JJ is merely more of a sure thing as he is a year older and progressing on course. There is less of a guarentee with a 17-18 year old. But if this trade actually happened it would be no shock, nor would it be the Pens making out like bandits. The trade is fairly equitable with the caveat of JJ being more of a sure thing.

Also, do not underestimate the lure of reuniting brothers like this. It is hardly unprecedented. Two decades or so ago the youngest Sutter Brothers, twins, were drafted by the Pens and Flyers. The Flyers tried hard to obtain the Pens' Sutter, and the Pens' tried hard to get the Flyers' Sutter. It did not work out but the attempt was made. And same hype then as now by both teams, and desire to reunite the two.

But we need not look that far back, the Sedin twins were drafted second (Daniel) and third (Henrik) overall in the 1999 Entry Draft by Calgary. Do you think that it was entirely because they were the coincidentally the second and third best prospects that year?

And those are not the only examples I am sure, just a couple off the top of my head. I doubt that this trade happens, but if it does I would not at all be surprised. Value wise it is not the slam dunk the Pens way either. Remember that STL is reportedly torn between Staal and EJ, and many here like EJ better than JJ.

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06-12-2006, 01:15 PM
  #27
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this trade would be a shock.

and it would favor the pens.

jordan staal isnt even the top player on his own junior team, he is not eric staal. he may be be a real solid pro one day, but he is not the potential gamebreaker jj is.

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06-12-2006, 01:23 PM
  #28
Bronn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan
Remember that STL is reportedly torn between Staal and EJ, and many here like EJ better than JJ.
When they should not be.

IMHO it's not even close as to who they should choose as the first overall pick.Going with Staal as # 1 could be a big big mistake from their part unless they plan to trade him afterward.

Personally i would go with Johnson , Toews and Backstrom before Staal but that's just me .

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06-12-2006, 01:33 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by STAALed
That would be cool to have a set of Staal brothers.. but not for Jack Johnson.. On the other hand, we could use a first rounder, especially this year. But I don't think the trade happens.
Yea...

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06-12-2006, 01:46 PM
  #30
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I think as a prudent GM, Rutherford has to explore this possibility regardless of Jack's value to the Cane's franchise. Jack > Staal but Staal > 3 more years of college and no contract.

I think part of the reason you hear the Pens as a possibility is because of the friendship between Crosby and Jack Johnson not just the Staal connection. The Canes are offering max contract and obviously thats not gonna change but the Pens have the Crosby connection to help.

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06-12-2006, 01:50 PM
  #31
Til the End of Time
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What exactly is the allure of having two brothers play on the same team?

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06-12-2006, 01:52 PM
  #32
Jaded-Fan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Til the End of Time
What exactly is the allure of having two brothers play on the same team?
Marketing perhaps. That said, what does it matter why? It is an undeniable reality that teams (and fans) are intrigued by the possibility and have acted on it in the past. I showed a couple of examples above but I am sure that there are others, and not just a few. So it is relevant here and adds another layer of credibilty to the rumor.

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06-12-2006, 01:59 PM
  #33
Darth Milbury
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The Sedins were a special case. The twins have always played together and were essentially a unit. Drafting one without the other wouldn't have made sense.

The Sutters were in a similar situation. Neither had excelled without the other, and I also think it is a bit of a stretch to say the Flyers tried hard to acquire both. More realistic perspective is that the Flyers were interested when Rich became available at relatively little cost. And, even then, they only kept him for 2 or so seasons before moving him.

As far as the Staals are concerned, they've all excelled independently and (by some indications) Jordan is hoping to go to a different team than Eric, so he can establish his own identity.

Marketing and all that is nice, but I doubt there is any GM in the league who would rate Staal above Jack Johnson and also doubt that Carolina would have so much as a vague interest in this sort of deal.

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06-12-2006, 02:03 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Til the End of Time
What exactly is the allure of having two brothers play on the same team?
Jaded explains some reasons but I agree that the question should be asked. Jordan Staal is the best Staal in this draft, but is he the best player? Is he going to be the best player? Is he going to elevate the play of his brother or detract from the team? In short, Staal should be selected wherever he goes based on the fact that he is the BPA, not for some other reasons that could backfire in the future.

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06-12-2006, 02:05 PM
  #35
Til the End of Time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan
Marketing perhaps. That said, what does it matter why? It is an undeniable reality that teams (and fans) are intrigued by the possibility and have acted on it in the past. I showed a couple of examples above but I am sure that there are others, and not just a few. So it is relevant here and adds another layer of credibilty to the rumor.
I just think its a stupid reason to make a move. Are more people going to show up to Canes games because they have two brothers playing? Is Eric Staal going to score 60 goals because his brother's locker is next to his? Is Eric going to help ease Jordan into the NHL? What's the point in overpaying to get Jordan and Eric on the same team? I really see none.

Right now, Jack Johnson has a greater value than Jordan Staal. He plays a more valuable position, is farther in his development, and just looks to be a better hockey player. If Jordan and Eric weren't brothers and/or Crosby and JJ weren't friends, this trade would never even be considered because it makes no sense purely in terms of what JJ and Jordan Staal bring to the team.

Pens' fans are fooling themselves if they think this deal is feasible.

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06-12-2006, 02:12 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
The Sedins were a special case. The twins have always played together and were essentially a unit. Drafting one without the other wouldn't have made sense.

The Sutters were in a similar situation. Neither had excelled without the other, and I also think it is a bit of a stretch to say the Flyers tried hard to acquire both. More realistic perspective is that the Flyers were interested when Rich became available at relatively little cost. And, even then, they only kept him for 2 or so seasons before moving him.

As far as the Staals are concerned, they've all excelled independently and (by some indications) Jordan is hoping to go to a different team than Eric, so he can establish his own identity.

Marketing and all that is nice, but I doubt there is any GM in the league who would rate Staal above Jack Johnson and also doubt that Carolina would have so much as a vague interest in this sort of deal.
I do not disagree, but do you really see the gap as all that great? Similar to the gap separating EJ and the couple of forwards just below him, I think that you and many others here are underrating the forwards at the very top of this draft based on the fact that the draft overall was seen as weak. I do believe that there is a gap in most scouts minds between EJ and the couple of others below him, but not a large one at all. Part of the gap is that there really is no one of quality defensively at the top but Johnson and there are a number of forward prospects. But make no mistake about it, at the top are several potential franchise type players a team builds around. The chances are very good that at least one of those will turn out in the end to be the player remembered from this draft, not Johnson. Kessel comes to mind. On almost any team but the Pens who are among that bottom tier of teams that player would be that team's future and one of their top two prospects. And except for the extra year to evaluate and see that JJ is progressing on schedule I do not see much difference between EJ and JJ as prospects. So I think that you underrate the forwards at the very top of this draft with how dismissive you are about them compared to the two Johnsons. The gap just is not as big as you imply.

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06-12-2006, 02:18 PM
  #37
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Where did I say the gap between them is large? I just said I don't think there is any GM who would take Staal before Jack Johnson, and I continue to believe that is the case. That says nothing about the size of the gap. Johnson is clearly the better, more valuable prospect but I didn't say HOW MUCH better.

You know that you'd be dancing in the streets if the Pens pulled this off. So, I suspect that you are well aware of the difference in the value of Staal and Johnson.

And, frankly, if Carolina was to acquire Pitt's pick, I'm still not convinced they'd even draft Staal. Staal is not the best player availabe at that position. I'm not even convinced he is a sure thing for the top five. If Carolina acquired the 2nd overall, Backstrom or Kessel would be a smarter pick - maybe even Toews or Mueller. There are some teams that even have Okposo ranked higher.

I agree with you about the quality of this year's draft though. I think the top half of the first round will actually turn out to be quite strong.

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06-12-2006, 02:24 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Where did I say the gap between them is large? I just said I don't think there is any GM who would take Staal before Jack Johnson, and I continue to believe that is the case. That says nothing about the size of the gap. Johnson is clearly the better, more valuable prospect but I didn't say HOW MUCH better.

You know that you'd be dancing in the streets if the Pens pulled this off. So, I suspect that you are well aware of the difference in the value of Staal and Johnson.

And, frankly, if Carolina was to acquire Pitt's pick, I'm still not convinced they'd even draft Staal. Staal is not the best player availabe at that position. I'm not even convinced he is a sure thing for the top five. If Carolina acquired the 2nd overall, Backstrom or Kessel would be a smarter pick - maybe even Toews or Mueller. There are some teams that even have Okposo ranked higher.

I agree with you about the quality of this year's draft though. I think the top half of the first round will actually turn out to be quite strong.
That is the point though. We are not talking Alain Lemieux in exchange for EJ. If, and only if, the Canes see the gap as not that big, I can see a possibility of credibilty in this deal. I still doubt that it will happen, but it is not entirely crazy as some here imply, and as you seemed to imply. If the gap is pretty close things like teaming brothers up for several reasons makes a lot of sense. Reasons such as marketing in a non-traditional market. Reasons such as potentially having his brother resign and stay to play with his brother. I can see all sorts of reasons why the Canes might just think a bit about this. Even given that it is unlikely to happen in my opinion. But it is not crazy either.

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06-12-2006, 02:36 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan
So it is relevant here and adds another layer of credibilty to the rumor.
I wouldn't necessarily say it adds credibility to the rumour, but more likely the rumour was created simply because it was an intriguing thought.

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06-12-2006, 02:42 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan
That is the point though. We are not talking Alain Lemieux in exchange for EJ. If, and only if, the Canes see the gap as not that big, I can see a possibility of credibilty in this deal. I still doubt that it will happen, but it is not entirely crazy as some here imply, and as you seemed to imply. If the gap is pretty close things like teaming brothers up for several reasons makes a lot of sense. Reasons such as marketing in a non-traditional market. Reasons such as potentially having his brother resign and stay to play with his brother. I can see all sorts of reasons why the Canes might just think a bit about this. Even given that it is unlikely to happen in my opinion. But it is not crazy either.
I don't think the gap is close. I also don't think it is huge. Basically, if Jack Johnson was available this year, I think he'd go first overall - maybe second. I'd rank Staal about 5th or 6th overall. I think he is an outside candidate to drop into the middle of the top 10. So, I'm with those who think this deal is very unrealistic.

I also don't think that Carolina, or any other team, is going to come out on the bad end of this kind of deal to bring in two brothers for "marketing." I think Carolina who have any easier time of marketing a team that is a winner, and you built a team that wins by getting the best players available.

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06-12-2006, 02:48 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
I don't think the gap is close. I also don't think it is huge. Basically, if Jack Johnson was available this year, I think he'd go first overall - maybe second. I'd rank Staal about 5th or 6th overall. I think he is an outside candidate to drop into the middle of the top 10. So, I'm with those who think this deal is very unrealistic.

I also don't think that Carolina, or any other team, is going to come out on the bad end of this kind of deal to bring in two brothers for "marketing." I think Carolina who have any easier time of marketing a team that is a winner, and you built a team that wins by getting the best players available.

Let us agree that it all depends on how Carolina sees Staal. I actually am in your camp, I am not enthralled with Staal over some of the other potential top picks. Though I do not have him dropped to 5th or 6th as you do. Kessel would be my clear pick at two actually. But reportedly many scouts are higher on Staal and have him right up there at two at the very least and competing for the top spot. So although you personally would not do the deal, who knows where the Canes are on this. I will freely admit if they see Staal as you do they do not do the deal, brother connection or not. If they have him near the top of their board however, it is possible.

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06-12-2006, 02:50 PM
  #42
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There are also reportedly some scouts who have Okposo at #2, and some who have Toews as the best forward in the draft. Regardless of who picks, I'll be quite suprised if Staal goes in that 2nd overall slot, and I doubt that Carolina has him there.

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06-12-2006, 03:17 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannoabram
well they could trade jj for the #2pick and something. say welch+#2 for jj
then jj and sid get to play together and be happy.the 2 staal's get to play together and be happy. everyone wins. all carolina needs to do after this deal is try and trade ladd and something for marc staal (then they have a top flight defensive prospect again)

We're not going to trade our #3 as an add in.

Change it to a Oullet or Surovy and we may think about it...we're not going to toss in one of our most highly touted prospects, a defensive one at that, in the deal. Not even for Johnson.

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06-12-2006, 03:23 PM
  #44
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The kind of storybook trade that works out where Eric Staal gets to play with his brother doesn't happen very often in the NHL when the players are this young. Once a player hits UFA status, it isn't rare to see him want to play with his brother but it's not very often that you find teams getting all sentimental about collecting family members of players. If that was the case, then Carolina would have traded down and taken Marc Staal last year at the draft instead of taking Jack Johnson. That would have made even more sense, considering that Carolina needed a defensive prospect, took a defensive prospect, and it is the weakest part of their arsenal at this point.

Would it be nice to have another Staal? You bet. Would it make sense? That part i'm not really sure about. Carolina lacks defensive prospects BIG time. Their blueline at the NHL level lacks a gamebreaker, and they're getting older by the minute. If Carolina trades for a draft pick, it will be to take a defenseman. I don't see a defenseman in this draft that i'd trade for Jack Johnson unless he didn't want to play here.

Would it totally shock me if this happened? Not really. I've learned to not be shocked when watching the NHL draft. Would it be something I think had a probability of happening? Not at all.

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06-12-2006, 03:43 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
I don't think the gap is close. I also don't think it is huge. Basically, if Jack Johnson was available this year, I think he'd go first overall - maybe second. I'd rank Staal about 5th or 6th overall. I think he is an outside candidate to drop into the middle of the top 10. So, I'm with those who think this deal is very unrealistic.

I also don't think that Carolina, or any other team, is going to come out on the bad end of this kind of deal to bring in two brothers for "marketing." I think Carolina who have any easier time of marketing a team that is a winner, and you built a team that wins by getting the best players available.
I agree with you about where I would rank Staal and the unpredictability of this draft, but the unpredictability works both ways. I think it's very possible that one of the top couple teams is enamoured enough with Staal to take him, and there's an outside shot that a team lower in the draft is enamoured enough to really try to move up.

In any event, I think everyone is pretty much agreed that this trade makes little sense for Carolina, unless there is a defensemen from Pittsburgh going their way. You'll get a big no from most Pens fans on including Welch, although personally I would include a player like Orpik if it sealed the deal, but I am not very high on Orpik at all.

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06-12-2006, 03:43 PM
  #46
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Jack Johnson was projected #2 in last year's draft wasn't he? The Ducks just happened to go off the board slightly. In other words, in a normal draft year without a phenom like Crosby Jack Johnson is the #1 overall pick in 2005 and no one here is even thinking about this trading going down. It's just not worth it for Carolina and while everyone here knows JJ is good some of you are undervaluing him just a bit.

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06-12-2006, 03:46 PM
  #47
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Jack Johnson was the second best prospect in last year's draft and he'd be the second best in this year's draft.

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06-12-2006, 03:54 PM
  #48
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Jack Johnson was the second best prospect in last year's draft and he'd be the second best in this year's draft.
Mmkay....

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06-12-2006, 04:22 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44
Mmkay....
I'd take Eric Johnson of this year before Jack of last year also...

IF Carolina was in love with J. Staal as a prospect, the little extra provided by his name could be enough to let JJ go imo. If J. Staal is simply a top 5 pick in their eyes, he's not worth trading JJ who has 1 more year of experience + is a defenseman, which they are in need of.

There is probably 1 team in the nhl that has Staal as their no.1. 1 out of 30 isnt impossible... If that team was Carolina, they could want such a deal.

I dont think Carolina likes Staal enough as a prospect to put him clearly over the other forwards on their own draft list.

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06-13-2006, 06:46 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Til the End of Time
What exactly is the allure of having two brothers play on the same team?
Perhaps its the Neidermeyer scenario. Having one brother on a team might make things easier to keep (or in the Neidermeyer case, acquire) a 2nd brother. Of course, with the Staals being 4 brothers eventually, this might get pretty crazy.

As to the proposal, Carolina shouldn't do the deal, but if it was offered, Pittsburgh would be crazy to pass it up on the off chance St. Louis does not draft Erik Johnson. The right hand shot of Erik would be great, and he might project slightly higher as a pro, but Jack Johnson is almost as good, and is closer to turning pro. I'd think both the Johnsons would go 1 and 2 if both were eligible this year, so if the Penguins can acquire one Johnson for the 2nd overall pick, that's a deal they have to make.

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