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Was tonight a good thing?

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Old
11-06-2003, 05:45 PM
  #1
gretzky2kurri
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Was tonight a good thing?

I think most would agree that it was. Could have been better of course.....but coulda been alot worse.

My question is...........do we like the point enough not to tinker with the present line up? Keep BG out?

Could Sarno and Salmo possibly get a 3rd straight game?

And what about Semi?

There's alot to talk about here.

Gentlemen..........start your engines.

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11-06-2003, 05:49 PM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky2kurri
I think most would agree that it was. Could have been better of course.....but coulda been alot worse.

My question is...........do we like the point enough not to tinker with the present line up? Keep BG out?

Could Sarno and Salmo possibly get a 3rd straight game?

And what about Semi?

There's alot to talk about here.

Gentlemen..........start your engines.

Call me crazy, but i say scratch Hemsky next game, bring in Laraque & give Salmo & Sarno another game, they've done quite well.

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11-06-2003, 05:51 PM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky2kurri
I think most would agree that it was. Could have been better of course.....but coulda been alot worse.

My question is...........do we like the point enough not to tinker with the present line up? Keep BG out?

Could Sarno and Salmo possibly get a 3rd straight game?

And what about Semi?

There's alot to talk about here.

Gentlemen..........start your engines.
I think Hemsky should watch this next one from the press box. He's a gifted player, and seems like a good guy, but he's just not playing well 5on5 right now. He's got to set his balls square and drive the puck wide every now and again, just to keep the defenders honest.

The prima-donna treatment didn't work so well on Comrie ... maybe its time to show Ales there isn't any special treatment for him.

Also ... I like Horcoff, but he's really struggled of late. A seat in the pressbox won't do him any harm either IMO.

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11-06-2003, 05:52 PM
  #4
gretzky2kurri
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Originally Posted by Cujo_31
Call me crazy, but i say scratch Hemsky next game, bring in Laraque & give Salmo & Sarno another game, they've done quite well.
How do you bench your top point guy so far this season?

I'm still asking myself why he needs a talking to after practice? He still pretty young. Like Smyth has always had a nice shiny plus/minus.

Hemsky stays in.

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11-06-2003, 06:04 PM
  #5
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Yeah I dont think that the answer is to sit Hemsky. The answer is to have an actual Ist line centre playing that position. I like Horcoff but he is not playing well enough to be the top line centre.

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11-06-2003, 06:08 PM
  #6
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Originally Posted by chit94
Yeah I dont think that the answer is to sit Hemsky. The answer is to have an actual Ist line centre playing that position. I like Horcoff but he is not playing well enough to be the top line centre.
At this point I'd definitely agree with you...but who plays C on the first line in the meantime? Smyth back to C, bring ??? up to play left wing?

I think it's time to sit Horcoff, unless he's being showcased for a trade.

Bart

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11-06-2003, 06:13 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igor
I think Hemsky should watch this next one from the press box. He's a gifted player, and seems like a good guy, but he's just not playing well 5on5 right now. He's got to set his balls square and drive the puck wide every now and again, just to keep the defenders honest.

The prima-donna treatment didn't work so well on Comrie ... maybe its time to show Ales there isn't any special treatment for him.

Also ... I like Horcoff, but he's really struggled of late. A seat in the pressbox won't do him any harm either IMO.
You guys should all apply to be coach of the Edmonton Oilers, because that kinda thinking really wins games in a hurry

You sit the points leader, then mention "Oh, maybe we should sit the guy who started the slide of our top line"

Where is the criticism of Smyth tonight??? He was downright lost!

Address the real problem, get Horcoff off that line, they were playing fine before he was there, you can't argue with that.

Ales had a bad game tonight, but you still throw him, Dvorak and Smyth out there in OT, because that's our best chance to win.

Seriously, where is this logic coming from? It takes a ton of bad games for people to dog Horcoff at all, and even when they do there's flak, but Hemsky has 1 average game and 1 bad one and he's in the friggin PB behind Laraque and the rest??? Are you KIDDING ME???

Sitting the most talented player on the team and our current points leader.........

Only in Edmonton........where being a third-liner is golden, because no one expects anything out of you, and when you do something, you're a hero for 3 months.

Disgusting.

He's gonna score 3 in T.O. on Saturday night......

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11-06-2003, 06:15 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky2kurri
How do you bench your top point guy so far this season?
You say "Every time you step on the ice lately the other team scores, maybe you should sit the next game".

If you had to choose between Hemsky, Salmo, and Sarno I think the choice is obvious based on recent performance. Salmo is the most likely candidate of the three though, Sarno's position is more important and Ales can contribute more if he gets going again.


Cross took on the speedy Mr Hossa who had a full head of steam and rode him out safely to the corner. He also rag dolled one of the Sens in front of the Oiler net earlier, I got a chuckle out of that one. He made a couple of nice pinches... For a guy with no speed he sure is effective, gotta love CC!


Semi won't sit out too many in a row, but none of our other d-men deserves a benching right now so that's a good question. I guess with Tor being the next opponent we could see the big guy back in. Nieuwy, Sundin, Nolan, Roberts are all big and talented, and then the Oil have back to backs coming in NY and Bos so I'd say he'll play in one of the next two for sure.

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11-06-2003, 06:23 PM
  #9
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Here's an idea...Instead of scratching Hemsky, lets give him and Smytty a half decent centre to play with. I like Horcoff, but on the 4th line.

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11-06-2003, 06:31 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oi'll say!
You say "Every time you step on the ice lately the other team scores, maybe you should sit the next game".

If you had to choose between Hemsky, Salmo, and Sarno I think the choice is obvious based on recent performance. Salmo is the most likely candidate of the three though, Sarno's position is more important and Ales can contribute more if he gets going again.
Yup, he's been terrible at 5on5 for a while now, actually his whole line has. And their numbers could be worse ... they've given up an extraordinary number of scoring chances against. Its hard to pin down which guy on the line is the problem ... but Hemsky isn't backchecking right now. Its dangerous to ignore it. Though I think MacT did bench him and Horcoff part way through this one ... maybe that's enough of a message.

Maybe bumping him to the 4th line is the fair thing to do, I dunno. At least that way he's still available for the powerplay, because the Oilers powerplay hasn't gotten much done when he isn't out there.

One thing is for sure, the Oilers will need to get Smyth and Hemsky going if they are going to be successful this year.


Quote:
Cross took on the speedy Mr Hossa who had a full head of steam and rode him out safely to the corner. He also rag dolled one of the Sens in front of the Oiler net earlier, I got a chuckle out of that one. He made a couple of nice pinches... For a guy with no speed he sure is effective, gotta love CC!


Semi won't sit out too many in a row, but none of our other d-men deserves a benching right now so that's a good question. I guess with Tor being the next opponent we could see the big guy back in. Nieuwy, Sundin, Nolan, Roberts are all big and talented, and then the Oil have back to backs coming in NY and Bos so I'd say he'll play in one of the next two for sure.
Ya, I think so to. All the D made some good and bad plays tonight. None of them seemed to be lacking effort. It would be good to see Semenov back in ... but none of the current D have really played their way out of the lineup.

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11-06-2003, 06:42 PM
  #11
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Well, imo this was a tremendous game. Salo made some stunning saves, some monsters, and has now had something to build on for three games. Not saying he's out of the woods, or even giving the Oil average NHL goaltending, just that he appears to be gaining confidence.

Secondly, Brewer started to move with some real conviction, and that's HUGE for this team.

Horcoff is playing very poorly, and a trip to the pressbox might not be a bad idea. He's WAY better than this.

Hemsky isn't letting things happen naturally, and this is exactly what happens after a peptalk from the coach. I remember once when Paul Coffey was a kid he told Tim Dancy (or Tim Spellicey) on ITV that he'd been confused about his role, and that he now understood he was a defensive defenseman!! Sometimes, we forget this guy is 20 and barely shaving.

I just want to take a minute and comment on Ethan Moreau, Marty Reasoner and Fernando Pisani. Moreau is really taking charge of the play, and has that edge every time out PLUS he's tempered his stick work to the point where he isn't making mistakes.

Reasoner has become a terrific two way centerman. I'm not saying he was worth Doug Weight, but he's turned the corner big time. Wonderful to watch.

Pisani is either the luckiest hockey player in history or one smart guy. He's ALWAYS where he should be.

This road trip is just what the doctor ordered, and it also probably shows us what the Oilers need in exhange for Comrie.

A real top line center.

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11-06-2003, 06:46 PM
  #12
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It's an 82 game sked and for Ales to sit out one game of a 6 game road trip isn't the end of the world, especially at 20 yrs of age. It could easily be the last time he sits in his entire career.

You have to feel really bad for Horc, getting his big chance to play on the top unit and crapping the bed. In fairness to him though, the game that he plays with Laraque and Chimera/Torres/whomever is a bit different from the style of Ales and Ryan. The power cycle with crash and bang vs the finesse game is a big difference.


Raffi was great again tonight, Mad Mike is probably having anxiety attacks now every time he goes near a tv set. I've come to expect a good move every now and then from Raffi but I never saw those wheels b4, he has to stay on that line forever. It's looking SOLID!

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11-06-2003, 06:49 PM
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I must say the only knock I really had against the moreau signing, considering his third line role, was his knack for taking godawful penalties at the worst times. Well, we haven't seen too much of that yet, and I have to say Im loving it. Hopefully he can keep his temper more in check all season long, and he'll be my hero forever.

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Old
11-06-2003, 06:50 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
...
Address the real problem, get Horcoff off that line, they were playing fine before he was there, you can't argue with that.
Emotional stuff there LMHF, but they weren't playing well before Horcoff joined them. Part of its chemistry I guess. Maybe part of it was Smyth at centre (though I think he covered his responsibilities pretty well there). But its not like its one or two bad games, its a string of them. Sort of reminds me of Comrie last December, in the two weeks before his injury, he still scored ... but he seemed to lose sight of a lot of the other aspects of his game. Other teams were scoring in bunches off the cycle when he was on the ice ... and he wasn't even close enough to be in any of the goal-against highlight clips.

They should have done something with Comrie then. Benched him or demoted him to the 4th line or something. A wakeup call was in order ... maybe because he had the best offensive stats MacT was afraid to upset him, I dunno. But I'd bet that MacT would like a do-over on that one.

Quote:
Ales had a bad game tonight, but you still throw him, Dvorak and Smyth out there in OT, because that's our best chance to win.
MacT doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to unbench a player for a PP or OT situation. But I'd agree that the personell selection in OT was kind of strange. MacT seems to use OT to reward guys who had a good game (remember BG and Dopita in OT against DAL last year? D'Oh!)

Quote:
Seriously, where is this logic coming from? It takes a ton of bad games for people to dog Horcoff at all, and even when they do there's flak, but Hemsky has 1 average game and 1 bad one and he's in the friggin PB behind Laraque and the rest??? Are you KIDDING ME???
The logic:
Hemsky has been on the ice for tonnes of scoring chances against over the last 6 or 7 games. And relatively few scoring chances for. And this while generally facing weaker opposition. Since the object of the game is obviously to outscore the other team. This is a bad thing. And is detrimental to the team's chances of winning.

Other players have been paying the price. Taking the puck deep, playing in traffic, driving the net, hustling back to backcheck, and winning battles on the boards in their own zone.

Hemsky is a very talented player. Probably more important to the future success of this team than anyone else on the roster. Decisions on the way the coaching staff handles him now has an impact on the kind of player he will become, and the way the team sees him and the way the team sees the coaching staff.

Its not an easy decision. And I'm by no means sure its the right one. And you're probably right in that sitting Hemsky won't help them in the TO game. I was thinking of the bigger picture though.

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11-06-2003, 06:59 PM
  #15
LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igor
Emotional stuff there LMHF, but they weren't playing well before Horcoff joined them. Part of its chemistry I guess. Maybe part of it was Smyth at centre (though I think he covered his responsibilities pretty well there). But its not like its one or two bad games, its a string of them. Sort of reminds me of Comrie last December, in the two weeks before his injury, he still scored ... but he seemed to lose sight of a lot of the other aspects of his game. Other teams were scoring in bunches off the cycle when he was on the ice ... and he wasn't even close enough to be in any of the goal-against highlight clips..
Between him and Smyth, pre-Horc, 16 points I believe.

Since, NONE.

You also didn't address my logic question. Other players have had much longer stretches of not so great games, and have not been sat, and they are far less talented with much less expected. If I said we should bench Ryan Smyth, people would go NUTS! And well they should, because that would be nuts. Give Smyth and Hemsky a center that isn't an anchor, and they will do fine against Toronto, and get going offensively again.

I'm callin it, 3 in T.O.

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11-06-2003, 07:15 PM
  #16
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Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
Between him and Smyth, pre-Horc, 16 points I believe.

Since, NONE.
I hoped that when MacT got Horcoff playing with those guys would help the defensive side of things. But Horcoff was struggling as badly as Smyth and Hemsky ... and clearly it hasn't worked. It seems a little too easy to blame it all on Horcoff though, and from what I've seen it doesn't seem very fair either.

BTW: I'm too lazy to go through the gamesheets, but Hemsky has only been on the ice for 3 Oilers 5on5 goals all year (9 against 5on5) ... so I'm guessing that these are mostly powerplay points.

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11-06-2003, 07:22 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igor
I hoped that when MacT got Horcoff playing with those guys would help the defensive side of things. But Horcoff was struggling as badly as Smyth and Hemsky ... and clearly it hasn't worked. It seems a little too easy to blame it all on Horcoff though, and from what I've seen it doesn't seem very fair either.

BTW: I'm too lazy to go through the gamesheets, but Hemsky has only been on the ice for 3 Oilers 5on5 goals all year (9 against 5on5) ... so I'm guessing that these are mostly powerplay points.
And I believe that either 4 or 5 of those have been in the last 3 games, have they not?

I did say that both Smyth and Hemsky had bad games, BUT, I feel a huge reason they're having bad games is due to their center. You need 3 good players on a top line, especially if you're going against lines featuring Marian Hossa all night.

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11-06-2003, 07:33 PM
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why is everyone getting on Horcoff's case after 2 games on the 1st line, first its Salo and Brewer now Horcoff when is it going to stop

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11-06-2003, 07:36 PM
  #19
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Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
And I believe that either 4 or 5 of those have been in the last 3 games, have they not?

I did say that both Smyth and Hemsky had bad games, BUT, I feel a huge reason they're having bad games is due to their center. You need 3 good players on a top line, especially if you're going against lines featuring Marian Hossa all night.
They were EV+0 and EV-3 with Horcoff. And EV+3 and EV-6 before Horcoff.

Personally I wish they had stuck with Smyth at centre and Isbister on LW for a while longer. But they didn't.

In any case Smyth and Hemsky have the worst 5on5 numbers on the team ... and I would expect them to have the best. Hell Horcoff has always outscored the other team 5on5 too, he's usually one of the best Oilers for this (Comrie and Smyth the others, Reasoner too last year).

I really don't have much more to say on this without repeating myself. Hemsky's still just a kid learning the NHL game (albeit a really talented kid) and he has not played well 5on5 all year ... and that has to change.
Blaming it on the others around him doesn't make much sense to me. And I don't think it helps Ales in the long run either.

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11-06-2003, 07:45 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igor
They were EV+0 and EV-3 with Horcoff. And EV+3 and EV-6 before Horcoff.

Personally I wish they had stuck with Smyth at centre and Isbister on LW for a while longer. But they didn't.

In any case Smyth and Hemsky have the worst 5on5 numbers on the team ... and I would expect them to have the best. Hell Horcoff has always outscored the other team 5on5 too, he's usually one of the best Oilers for this (Comrie and Smyth the others, Reasoner too last year).

I really don't have much more to say on this without repeating myself. Hemsky's still just a kid learning the NHL game (albeit a really talented kid) and he has not played well 5on5 all year ... and that has to change.
Blaming it on the others around him doesn't make much sense to me. And I don't think it helps Ales in the long run either.
Fair enough, but I happen to think doing something like sitting him not only hurts the team, but sends him completely the wrong message.

HF83: I've been on Horcoff's case for a LONG time, so I'm not bein hypocritical

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11-06-2003, 07:51 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igor
Personally I wish they had stuck with Smyth at centre and Isbister on LW for a while longer. But they didn't.
I was going to hit this too. While some people might not be happy with the Smyth at C lineup, I think it's apparent that he was still better than Horcoff as our offensive center. Horcoff looked just awful.

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11-06-2003, 08:30 PM
  #22
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Depending on Izzy's status vs the Leafs, ya gotta have BG in the lineup. Darcy "dumbf&^*" Tucker is out there on the ice. I know he'll just turtle and all that crap, but he will behave if Laraque is out there. Remember last time we were at the ACC? Smith and Smyth gone. Naw.... BG has to play, even if its to just maul Tucker who can't go hide behind big brother Corson anymore.

 
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11-06-2003, 08:35 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Belcriss
Depending on Izzy's status vs the Leafs, ya gotta have BG in the lineup. Darcy "dumbf&^*" Tucker is out there on the ice. I know he'll just turtle and all that crap, but he will behave if Laraque is out there. Remember last time we were at the ACC? Smith and Smyth gone. Naw.... BG has to play, even if its to just maul Tucker who can't go hide behind big brother Corson anymore.
Torres could have a nice surprise for Tucker.

Tucker WILL go with Torres. More so than BG.

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11-06-2003, 08:48 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by gretzky2kurri
Torres could have a nice surprise for Tucker.

Tucker WILL go with Torres. More so than BG.
Bergeron vs Tucker would be a good tilt too, if the need arises.

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11-06-2003, 09:54 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
You guys should all apply to be coach of the Edmonton Oilers, because that kinda thinking really wins games in a hurry

You sit the points leader, then mention "Oh, maybe we should sit the guy who started the slide of our top line"

Where is the criticism of Smyth tonight??? He was downright lost!

Address the real problem, get Horcoff off that line, they were playing fine before he was there, you can't argue with that.

Ales had a bad game tonight, but you still throw him, Dvorak and Smyth out there in OT, because that's our best chance to win.

Seriously, where is this logic coming from? It takes a ton of bad games for people to dog Horcoff at all, and even when they do there's flak, but Hemsky has 1 average game and 1 bad one and he's in the friggin PB behind Laraque and the rest??? Are you KIDDING ME???

Sitting the most talented player on the team and our current points leader.........

Only in Edmonton........where being a third-liner is golden, because no one expects anything out of you, and when you do something, you're a hero for 3 months.

Disgusting.

He's gonna score 3 in T.O. on Saturday night......
Unfortunately spoken like a true Hemsky hardcore. He was aweful. He hasn't been real good all year. The point totals are misleading with hie and Smyth they both have been sub-par all year. Hemsky needs to sit and get a grasp of the game from up stairs for a night or two.

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