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Luongo gone by July 1?

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Old
06-20-2006, 08:55 AM
  #201
BabyJagrov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWI19
Well i mine as well add my 2 cents to the Luongo to Detroit talk.

1st, Datsyuk has to go back to Florida as part of the deal. Mostly because Detroit cant add on Loungo's salary without sending something back to the Panthers. And we know the panthers would rather have Datsyuk than Robert Lang

2nd, Kronwall can not be included. Because of the Wings lack of depth on the blueline, Lidstrom being a UFA, and Fischer not coming back the Wings need to keep Niklas around. So if the Panthers insist on Kronwall i dont see how Holland could make this trade. And no i'm not saying Kronwall is on equal value to Luongo but because of the Wings situation he is pretty much untradeable right now.

Wings have some younger players but i doubt they really excite the Panthers (maybe outside of Howard). So unless were talking Datsyuk, Howard, and picks for Luongo i dont see this trade working and i highly doubt it happens anyways. I know where Wings fans are coming from, but there are many more holes than just in net. Adding Luongo wont help the team score gritty goals teams need to win in the playoffs.
What you obviously don't know is that Florida doesn't want Datsyuk ! The guy choke in the playoffs, is a small shifty Russian and plays center... We already have Jokinen, Nieuwendyk, Gratton, Stumpel, Weiss, Olesz, Horton listed as centermen !

It's more and more clear that Florida and Detroit aren't good trading partner... They have only one piece of the puzzle (Howard) and who obviously won't part with Kronwall or Zetterberg so it is a no-no here ! If Holland gets it done, I will be very surprised... He also would have to be very creative to pry away Roberto with other teams in the running...

Here are the packages I've thought about... Sometimes it isn't for Luongo alone, you can had one of our depth prospect like a Campbell, Meyer, Kreps, Shantz or one of our depth defenseman Montador, Semenov, Hill etc...

From LA: Alexander Frolov + Mathieu Garon + 1rst pick LA 2007

I would really like Iron Mike to make it a bigger deal and get Sean Avery with Richard Petiot also... I've heard that Petiot could block any deal, since he is the only defensive-defenseman in LA's pipeline !

From Detroit: Zetterberg or Kronwall + Howard + ??? (first round pick, Hudler... ?)

I still like that package a lot... Hudler can thrive in this new NHL and I like Kronwall although I don't think he is anyway near the level some people have him... Kronwall will be a good player, a great top-3 defenseman and even a capable number one (like a Roman Hamrlik...)... Howard, I knew very little about him but you, wings fans have sold me on the kid in this thread... (I hope you would be as open-minded, and understand that a good top-4 defenseman isn't in the same league as one of the 3 best golatender in the world and "way" under 30 )... Zetterberg is a pipe dream, but IMO he and Frolov are on the same level and it would give our beloved Panthers that first-line LW threat

From Toronto: Tucker + Colaiacovo + Rask or Pogge + Tellqvist + 1rst round pick

Tellqvist gives us a Finnish-goaltender, that I'm pretty sure is capable of playing at that level... One of Toronto great goalie prospect would be great for our team(sorry Wings fans, maybe it is just because I know those two guys better, but I have more hope in Pogge and Rask than Howard !)... Colaiacovo even if he still holds some values, he has been drafted a long time ago and it seems he won't get his chance there (ok maybe now with Maurice at the helm !), but to me he is still a great player and can be a top-4 defenseman if trusted in that role... The first pick is one of the key with the prospect goaltender... Tucker is a veteran LW, who can play on any of the top 3 lines, he would bring some more grit and experience to our team (he is also a former Lightning player), while also putting up the points !

Keep in mind I've told you we could throw-in even a couple of marginal players (which have as much value as a Hudler, or a Colaiacovo), those packages aren't any sort of proposals... It is just what I would trade Luongo for, and for what he shouldn't go if it's less IMO... And don't start saying I'll cry when I see what we get for Luongo... I won't cry anymore for that "pain-in-the-***" !

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06-20-2006, 09:07 AM
  #202
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Gagne

while also not likely to happen because of salary and same conf, don't count out the Flyers. Clarek and Keenen go way back and the Flyers do have some assets to trade if they so desired. Most people will say it is blaspehemy to possibly include Richards or Carter but you do have to give to get thoguht doubtful they move those guys as they are under control for salary for a few more years.

How about a deal centered around Gagne and Esche? What would it take.

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06-20-2006, 09:24 AM
  #203
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Bah, Luongo is not that good. Why all the fuss?

Really now, is a slight improvement in nets worth a $4+ million increase in salary for most teams?

After the whole Theodore episode in Montreal, I highly question the idea of gambling the farm and putting a huge chunk of money into one player, especially one who plays a position like goaltender.

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06-20-2006, 09:28 AM
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Havlat
What you obviously don't know is that Florida doesn't want Datsyuk ! The guy choke in the playoffs, is a small shifty Russian and plays center... We already have Jokinen, Nieuwendyk, Gratton, Stumpel, Weiss, Olesz, Horton listed as centermen !
If adding Datsyuk would make the Panthers a playoff team, wouldn't you take that? Worry about the playoffs once you MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. That's the way I see it, anyway. edit - the Panthers also have the power players to make Datsyuk more effective in the playoffs. What he needs is at least one, possibly 2 wingers who can manhandle the other team, put them back on their heels with speed and hits, and then get themselves to the net while Datsyuk dangles. He played with Draper and Mowers for big chunks of the last season, and there is no sign that the Wings are going to dramatically improve his linemates for next year. This is a major reason why he could be dealt, at least in the minds of Wings fans. A guy like Horton would be a fantastic player to put on a line with Datsyuk.

As for the center argument, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Good centers can play the wing. Nieuwendyk is just about done - you're going to pass on Datsyuk because of him? Gratton is a 3rd/4th line center who was drafted really high but has never lived up to any of his potential - you're going to pass on Datsyuk because of him? Stumpel is signed for one more year, I think, and did not help your team get into the playoffs last year - you're going to pass on Datsyuk because of him? Horton played quite a bit of RW this year - I know because I had him on my fantasy team for a while. And a power forward like him is better suited to the wing anyway. Weiss and Olesz have not proven anything at the NHL level yet. I just don't see how having the guys you listed absolutely negates Datsyuk as a possible piece of a Luongo deal.

If the Panthers really don't want Datsyuk, then you're right, the two teams are not very good trade partners. Zetterberg is not going anywhere, and Kronwall is probably not going anywhere either - if he were traded in a deal for Luongo, then Datsyuk would not be unless there were more added from Florida's end.

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06-20-2006, 09:30 AM
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Havlat
From Detroit: Zetterberg or Kronwall + Howard + ??? (first round pick, Hudler... ?)

I still like that package a lot... Hudler can thrive in this new NHL and I like Kronwall although I don't think he is anyway near the level some people have him... Kronwall will be a good player, a great top-3 defenseman and even a capable number one (like a Roman Hamrlik...)... Howard, I knew very little about him but you, wings fans have sold me on the kid in this thread... (I hope you would be as open-minded, and understand that a good top-4 defenseman isn't in the same league as one of the 3 best golatender in the world and "way" under 30 )... Zetterberg is a pipe dream, but IMO he and Frolov are on the same level and it would give our beloved Panthers that first-line LW threat
Zetterberg is a deam, and as Wings fans have said over and over there's no way the Panthers can get Kronwall either. How about this - Kindl + Howard + 1st round pick / Hulder? Kindl is the best defense prospect in Detroit's organization and projects to a top 4 blueliner. If Florida is dead set on getting some D and doesn't like any of Schneider/Lilja/Lebda then Kindl is the best the Wings can do.

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Old
06-20-2006, 09:40 AM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro
If adding Datsyuk would make the Panthers a playoff team, wouldn't you take that? Worry about the playoffs once you MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. That's the way I see it, anyway. edit - the Panthers also have the power players to make Datsyuk more effective in the playoffs. What he needs is at least one, possibly 2 wingers who can manhandle the other team, put them back on their heels with speed and hits, and then get themselves to the net while Datsyuk dangles. He played with Draper and Mowers for big chunks of the last season, and there is no sign that the Wings are going to dramatically improve his linemates for next year. This is a major reason why he could be dealt, at least in the minds of Wings fans. A guy like Horton would be a fantastic player to put on a line with Datsyuk.

As for the center argument, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Good centers can play the wing. Nieuwendyk is just about done - you're going to pass on Datsyuk because of him? Gratton is a 3rd/4th line center who was drafted really high but has never lived up to any of his potential - you're going to pass on Datsyuk because of him? Stumpel is signed for one more year, I think, and did not help your team get into the playoffs last year - you're going to pass on Datsyuk because of him? Horton played quite a bit of RW this year - I know because I had him on my fantasy team for a while. And a power forward like him is better suited to the wing anyway. Weiss and Olesz have not proven anything at the NHL level yet. I just don't see how having the guys you listed absolutely negates Datsyuk as a possible piece of a Luongo deal.

If the Panthers really don't want Datsyuk, then you're right, the two teams are not very good trade partners. Zetterberg is not going anywhere, and Kronwall is probably not going anywhere either - if he were traded in a deal for Luongo, then Datsyuk would not be unless there were more added from Florida's end.
I never said Datsyuk wouldn't be our best centerman (I think he is more skills than Jokinen but I would still take Jokinen anyday of the week and twice on Sunday over Datsyuk)... I said we had a log-jam at center... Would Detroit want Jokinen back if they were to trade their best player to the Panthers ? I don't think so and it is the same here !

And you are the one telling me Weiss and Olesz haven't proved anything at the NHL level ? Yet it seems that every Wings fans think Kronwall has proven A LOT in the NHL, well he has proven as much to be considered one of the future possible Norris candidates....

I'm a Panthers fans, I'm not a homer but we are always with our team... You are the same... But yet I can assume that Weiss and Olesz don't have proved a lot in the NHL right now... Hope it would be the same for everyone !

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06-20-2006, 09:46 AM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejack
Zetterberg is a deam, and as Wings fans have said over and over there's no way the Panthers can get Kronwall either. How about this - Kindl + Howard + 1st round pick / Hulder? Kindl is the best defense prospect in Detroit's organization and projects to a top 4 blueliner. If Florida is dead set on getting some D and doesn't like any of Schneider/Lilja/Lebda then Kindl is the best the Wings can do.
what a great package, you could almost get Sean hill and the zamboni guy in BONUS for that deal !

Why don't we stop the Wings/Panthers debate right now... Jacques Martin (which holds a lot of power on this team) as already stated we were at a new level... We aren't selling to get better in the future, we are selling to get better now ! Jokinen wouldn't have gone for a package of suspects (sorry but it is exactly what you are offering here... I'll let you say Howard is top-prospect because I haven't seen him like the other guys, and I'm willing to believe he is that good), and it will be the same for Roberto !

So unless you are giving a true-NHLer that would make us significantly better (like Luongo would do for you), you have as much chance to get Roberto as a snowball in hell !

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Old
06-20-2006, 11:20 AM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
1) I see no evidence whatsoever that Keenan is in love with Bertuzzi. Yeah, Keenan made the trade. Big deal. Lots of other teams and GMs wanted Bertuzzi at the time. That means nothing. Keenan was simply getting the best package from the Isles that they could at the time. It had nothing to do with Keenen somehow having a Milbury-like mancrush on Bertuzzi.

2) Cats are not going to trade one impending UFA for another. It has nothing to do with age. I actually think the Cats could use some vet influences, although I don't see them giving up their best trade asset for that purpose.

3) I don't care if you think my claim that the Cats wouldn't want Bertuzzi is ridiculous. I think you are flat out wrong, and once again engaging in the sort of homeristic wishful thinking that is a chronic characteristic of your posts.

If the Cats did want Bertuzzi, it certainly wouldn't take Luongo to get him. Stewart and a pick would get it done or something of that nature. Bertuzzi's trade value is not all that high at the present moment.

4) 5.3 is one heck of a lot of money, despite your claims to the contrary. The Cats could buy lots of UFA for that price, including addressing their most significant need (defense).

Honestly, I think virtually every deal in this thread - including the Dead Wing deals -is better than yours. I think you are far more unrealistic than any of those Wing fans - even the one who said Kronwall = Phaneuf.
Should be noted that losing your best player in a gun-to-the-head-trade and bringing back a floating pariah back the other way would be a pr nightmare for the Cats...

But this is Keenan we are talking about.

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06-20-2006, 11:25 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Hasbro
Should be noted that losing your best player in a gun-to-the-head-trade and bringing back a floating pariah back the other way would be a pr nightmare for the Cats...

But this is Keenan we are talking about.
Keenan isn't the same guy as we're used to talking about here. He signed Ville Peltonen and is bringing Vallin from what I've heard, a small, fast skating euro defenseman. He still probably has his personal preference in terms of player styles but he realizes as well that the new NHL is different from the old. Detroit fans, that's one plus for you there as Hudler has way more value now than he did a couple years ago with the new rules.

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06-20-2006, 11:30 AM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejack
Zetterberg is a deam, and as Wings fans have said over and over there's no way the Panthers can get Kronwall either. How about this - Kindl + Howard + 1st round pick / Hulder? Kindl is the best defense prospect in Detroit's organization and projects to a top 4 blueliner. If Florida is dead set on getting some D and doesn't like any of Schneider/Lilja/Lebda then Kindl is the best the Wings can do.
First off Keenan probably wouldn't let an all prospect deal for Luongo fly, neither would Cohen, the owner, and it wouldn't go over well with Florida fans at all and next year is critical for the panthers as they need some type of success with the Heat and Dolphins being very good this year and grabbing attention in town.

Secondly, with as I said in the other post, several teams probably bidding against each other, we'd most likely be getting Kindl, Howard, Hudler, a first rounder and Keenan would want someone like Williams or Fillipula as well. Not saying Luongo only would come back from Florida but if there's no proven NHLers(Datsyuk)/top bluechippers (Kronwall) in the deal, you will be paying greatly with your GOOD prospects, that goes for any team. Don't let my username fool you lol, this isn't a case of me saying Luongo is worth the world, but with the way Keenan deals and the way our owner is as well as Jokinen sick of deals for prospects, it's the way its going to be probably.

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06-20-2006, 11:33 AM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Havlat
what a great package, you could almost get Sean hill and the zamboni guy in BONUS for that deal !

Why don't we stop the Wings/Panthers debate right now... Jacques Martin (which holds a lot of power on this team) as already stated we were at a new level... We aren't selling to get better in the future, we are selling to get better now ! Jokinen wouldn't have gone for a package of suspects (sorry but it is exactly what you are offering here... I'll let you say Howard is top-prospect because I haven't seen him like the other guys, and I'm willing to believe he is that good), and it will be the same for Roberto !

So unless you are giving a true-NHLer that would make us significantly better (like Luongo would do for you), you have as much chance to get Roberto as a snowball in hell !
Kindl and Hudler aren't noname prospects, both would be at the top of our prospects chart with the exception of Olesz and MAYBE a healthy Stewart, they have very good potential, but it IS still just potential, nevertheless, it's still a VERY valuable package in any other situation, I really like Kindl actually, Luongo though isn't just another goalie.

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06-20-2006, 01:09 PM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanthersRule
Kindl and Hudler aren't noname prospects, both would be at the top of our prospects chart with the exception of Olesz and MAYBE a healthy Stewart, they have very good potential, but it IS still just potential, nevertheless, it's still a VERY valuable package in any other situation, I really like Kindl actually, Luongo though isn't just another goalie.
I know that PanthersRule... In fact, I love Kindl as much as you and I think he was one of the best defenseman in his draft year, even if it was for him a disappointment ! He was supposed to be one of the top-two defenseman in the draft, challenging Johnson... I like his tools A LOT ! But I haven't been following him this year so I don't know his progress...

I like Hudler too, the guy is a great kid (without an attitude problem, which people brought up when he was in his draft year) with great potential... He is very small and he can't be send to the minors... So even if he has good potential, he holds little value (like Mark Popovic with Anaheim... I'm not comparing the talent of the players, just the situation... or like Colaiacovo in Toronto...)... Taticek isn't a better prospect but he was still taken way higher in thi draft...

I'm not complaining, you know I was piss off because when people are bringing Panthers in trade rumors, we always get a package of 6 prospects who hold nothing but potential (so it is either great for you... or pretty bad...) ! I don't know Howard pretty much as I've stated above, but to me right now Hudler and Kindl are much more suspects than prospects... And it is not the package we are looking for...

If we were getting Kronwall which I'm not as sold on as some people are, but we would still get HF's 27 best prospect... or even Weber, Staal, Bourdon those are legit D-prospects... I may be OK... but for Kindl and Hudler with Howard as the successor to Luongo (which I can say again, Wings fans have sold me on his abilities to be just that)... Mmmmmmmm... No thanks !

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