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Old
11-06-2003, 06:09 PM
  #1
Bruwinz37
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Line tweaking

I am really happy with this team so far, but I think the lines are just a bit off. I have two options on how to get the offense going.

First would have Bergeron moving up to center the second line with Sergeis. Lapointe going back to the third line which always had great chemistry. On many nights Bergeron has been our best player. He and Samsonov have uncanny chemistry on the PP, and IMO Zinovjev has been playing very well...especially defensively. I think this line would work in spit of their somewhat lack of experience.

Second option would see Bergeron moving to the top line RW and Glenn Murray moving to the Sergei line. This does two things, it gives the top line a whole dimension it doesnt have. Joe would have to start shooting more, but at the same time Bergeron always seems to know when to shoot and when to pass. I think this line would really click. Adding Murray to the Sergeis gives them a legit sharp shooter who could bury their feeds.

Thoughts?

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11-06-2003, 06:25 PM
  #2
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I like your thinking, but my answer is "Not yet".

I don't see the advantage of breaking up the 700-pound line.

I DO see merit to moving Bergeron between Samsonov and Lapointe...but I love the way the coach is using Bergeron in the first part of his rookie season...not putting him in positions where he can fail.

He's doing so well with Rolston and Axelsson...I say leave him there for now. If the situation with the team remains the same around January or February (ie - the Samsonov line can't score)...then experiment with Bergeron on the second line at that point. But stay put for now...and don't mess with a good thing.

--BCN

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11-06-2003, 06:25 PM
  #3
Magnus Fulgur
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These are good ideas, but...

I wouldn't "demote" Muzz yet. Joe and Muzz will still get their chances, and they started to rev up their game tonight vs. the Shaaaahx.

Bergeron's game doesn't fit Thornton's game Patrice won't be as good down low. He needs to always be moving with the puck. We need Bergeron as more of a center.

I liked Kluzak's idea of keeping Bergeron, Samsonov, and Lapointe (PP unit #2) as the second line. However, this means a demotion for Zino and a loss of a Russian line mate, so we might as well throw Zino's good play out the window. But I don't see anything wrong with Zino centering Rolston and Axe.

700lbs.
Lapointe PB Sammy
Rollie Zino Axe
Zams Green McCarthy

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11-06-2003, 08:40 PM
  #4
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Wow, Bruiwnz20

I agree with you 100%. For the first time ever I believe (other than common stuff i.e. most of the Montreal Canadians are panties)

Samsonov Zina Bergeron (interchangable) should be given a shot.

Sergei,Sergei,Marty looks good on paper but isn't putting up goals so...
this alternative is kinda a soft line, -but could cause headaches.

MAN, Zino is a GREAT player. yah, he only has 1pt but he is playing awesome hockey. I think they will come in buckets for him once they do come...till than he is still playing smart defensive hockey, and has a good transition game.

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11-06-2003, 10:49 PM
  #5
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I think Zino and Sergei need more time. Zinovjev has played all of five games in the NHL. In that time, he's not only adjusting to the smaller rink and faster speeds, but he's learning to feed off his more experienced linemates.

Complicating matters is the fact that all five teams the Bruins have faced play the trap. Zino needs to create speed coming through the nuetral zone to get going, and he hasn't been able to do that. Relying on making plays down low or through a clogged nuetral zone is more difficult.

If there was more speed and open space, Zinovjev would probably be more effective. At this rate, he needs to focus on adjusting and learning how to operate with less time and space. Fortunately he's good at both ends of the ice and he's willing to use the body. Those are big pluses.

I say give him another 5-10 games and see how his adjustment process is going. During that time, Sullivan can at least try to tweak his game. If there's still no response, then maybe it will be time to look at the options. If there was any way the Bruins could begin to break the trap and generate more speed through center ice, Zinovjev and his line would benefit.

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11-06-2003, 11:57 PM
  #6
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I agree with Meister on this one - give the lines another 5-10games (unless the Sergei's start getting beat on a regular basis which is unlikely).

Zino has probably never played against the trap before and as a center his role and responsibilities are much higher that Bergeron playing the wing (not to take anything away from Bergeron). He needs some time to get acclimated to the NHL game both in pace and ice.

The interesting thing here is that Bergeron seems to make those with whom he plays "better" which is nice to know. Let's see at game 20 and make a decision then - the good thing I believe is that Zino can play the wing as well so an eventual swap of Bergeron to 2nd C and Zino to 3rd RW should be straight forward if necessary.

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11-07-2003, 02:40 AM
  #7
Jeff from Maine
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I Disagree

I disagree with this.

First off, MUCH of what goes right for the current Sammy line is tracable to the mucking and corner work of Lapointe. Move him off that line, and Samsonov has to be your corner man.

Lets face it...Bergeron has 4 goals, but NONE of them have been created goals...none have been goals off the rush. 3 of them have been goals he has scored off of rebounds from point shots by Rolston.

Zino and Sammy do not take shots from the point...hence defnders are not drawn out away fropm the goal. None of those 3 guys has a good slapshot...all have quality wrist shots which necessitate in close passing and shooting.

Bad move putting Bergeron on line 2, IMHO.

And worse to put him on top line...but just my opinion. Bergeron, again, is not a set up/spot up shooter! Thats the beauty of that line as is. Murray spots up he has possibly the best 1 timer in the NHL. Anyone with a lesser wrister (which Bergeron is...MUCH worse shooter) would not score half the goals that Muzz gets, even though this years production is down.

Bergeron is in the perfect spot! He faces 3rd and 2nd pairring defense every night and is paired with the perfect linemates.

Its just as Brick said after the last game...he couldnt possibly be in a bette position! He plays with the 2 best defensive forwards on the team...and all he has to do is wait for rebounds off of Rolstons blasts!

Later

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11-07-2003, 04:01 AM
  #8
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First would have Bergeron moving up to center the second line with Sergeis. Lapointe going back to the third line which always had great chemistry. On many nights Bergeron has been our best player. He and Samsonov have uncanny chemistry on the PP, and IMO Zinovjev has been playing very well...especially defensively. I think this line would work in spit of their somewhat lack of experience. -From Bruwinz20
--------------------------------------------------------------------

I totally agree the best move would be to move Bergeron up onto the second line to center Sammy and Lapointe.

However, I wouldnt do it until I give the present lines a few more games to gel.

That second line does very well on the PP (with Bergeron), and I think they'd really click in 5 on 5 situations too.

Zino, Axelsson and Rolston would be one fast line too.

By the way, nice hit by Bergeron last night- dude is strong on his skates, huh ? -Piels

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11-07-2003, 04:24 AM
  #9
Bruwinz37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff from Maine
I disagree with this.

First off, MUCH of what goes right for the current Sammy line is tracable to the mucking and corner work of Lapointe. Move him off that line, and Samsonov has to be your corner man.

Lets face it...Bergeron has 4 goals, but NONE of them have been created goals...none have been goals off the rush. 3 of them have been goals he has scored off of rebounds from point shots by Rolston.

Zino and Sammy do not take shots from the point...hence defnders are not drawn out away fropm the goal. None of those 3 guys has a good slapshot...all have quality wrist shots which necessitate in close passing and shooting.

Bad move putting Bergeron on line 2, IMHO.

And worse to put him on top line...but just my opinion. Bergeron, again, is not a set up/spot up shooter! Thats the beauty of that line as is. Murray spots up he has possibly the best 1 timer in the NHL. Anyone with a lesser wrister (which Bergeron is...MUCH worse shooter) would not score half the goals that Muzz gets, even though this years production is down.

Bergeron is in the perfect spot! He faces 3rd and 2nd pairring defense every night and is paired with the perfect linemates.

Its just as Brick said after the last game...he couldnt possibly be in a bette position! He plays with the 2 best defensive forwards on the team...and all he has to do is wait for rebounds off of Rolstons blasts!

Later
Again I see you are not giving enough credit to Bergeron. The guy is consistently one of our top three forwards every night. He creates chances in spite of having Rolston for a center. This is not a slight against Rolston, but he simply isnt good at creating offense for his linemates. Bergeron and Samsonov should play together. They have great chemistry and the reason is because Bergeron is so good at anticipating where he should be without the puck. That usually isnt a learned trait, that is a gift. With Sammy moving so much Bergeron finds the place he needs to be.

Perhaps a Bergeron with Sammy and Muzz line? Then have Zina with Joe and Knuble and reunite Lapointe with Rolston and Axe? I know it has been only 5 games, but I think it would be in the best interest to have Samsonov and Zinovjev on seperate lines. Just my opinion.

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Old
11-07-2003, 05:39 AM
  #10
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Personally I have to agree that shifting lines right now isn't a good idea. We aren't winning or really playing our best hockey, but we're finding ways to get points every night. Thornton has more than a PPG, Samsonov, who is on a line that is not producing, some how has 10pts in 13 games. He is on his way to a possible 70 point season already, and if his line starts to click, forget about it.

The lines are working, we had a couple bad goals against last year, or we would have won that game. Stuff like that happens, but I think changing lines right now isn't the way to go. We don't need to panic, we are near the top of the conference and we've hardly seen the best hockey this team can play IMO.

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11-07-2003, 05:49 AM
  #11
Magnus Fulgur
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tweeeeeeky freeeeky deeeeky

Bruwinz20 wrote:

"Perhaps a Bergeron with Sammy and Muzz line? Then have Zina with Joe and Knuble and reunite Lapointe with Rolston and Axe? I know it has been only 5 games, but I think it would be in the best interest to have Samsonov and Zinovjev on seperate lines. Just my opinion."

This is the best idea yet, IMO. Zina will force Joe to come out in the open more, but will still be able to play tough. Zina has better wheels than Muzz, which is becoming a liability on the first line.
That second line is awesome, and we know that Lapointe with Rolston and Axe won't disappoint. However, there is a chemistry issue in keeping Lapointe with Bergeron, since they are living together.

Another chemistry issue: I noticed that Green was trying to be palsy-walsy with Zino on the bench last night. Zino was aloof, and didn't even look at him. I hope that's nothing...

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11-07-2003, 05:57 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedbsfan
I noticed that Green was trying to be palsy-walsy with Zino on the bench last night. Zino was aloof, and didn't even look at him. I hope that's nothing...
Green is probably needling him because Sullivan has him taking half of Zino's faceoffs. (Also, I imagine Green isn't too happy that his icetime dropped by a third when Zino appeared.)

I'd like to see Zino on some penalty kills but Green would probably throw a fit...

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11-07-2003, 10:32 AM
  #13
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I totally agree the best move would be to move Bergeron up onto the second line to center Sammy and Lapointe.
-Piels[/QUOTE]

Ya, I was thinking about it and

Samsonov... Bergeron... Lapointe.....

*sounds* like it should be a good-to-verygood line.

Zino with Axe and Rolly would be a wicked 3rd-line I believe. Ah, to be Sullivan for a day.

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11-07-2003, 10:36 AM
  #14
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I think Bergeron will emerge as the guy to helm the 2nd line center position. Whether that is the thing to do right now is an open question. As Jeff says, having Bergeron kind of tag along with the team right now is not a bad thing. Being the 2nd line center... results are expected. I don't know, I can see it either way. If nothing else is working, why not give it a shot.

 
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11-07-2003, 10:56 AM
  #15
Colt.45Orr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Eye
I think Bergeron will emerge as the guy to helm the 2nd line center position. Whether that is the thing to do right now is an open question. As Jeff says, having Bergeron kind of tag along with the team right now is not a bad thing. Being the 2nd line center... results are expected. I don't know, I can see it either way. If nothing else is working, why not give it a shot.
Jeff is indeed right, buuut it's not going to crush the guy if he has to go back to the third line.

I say if there is any candidate on the Bruins to step up and suprise us...it is Bergeron...seems to be his speciality.

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11-07-2003, 11:27 AM
  #16
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Shane, the problem I see is that your predicating the success of two lines on the performance of two rookies. I would argue that Knuble benefits from the coverage that Murray picks up. As long as the line as a whole is working pretty well, I would not worry too much about the peaks and valleys of the individuals.

Beyond that, I'm not sure the line questions can be easily addressed by shuffling the existing cast of characters. To some extent, it would be interesting to see what Samsonov-Bergeron-Veteran X could do, where the vet is some guy who might be able to anchor that line and chip in goals. That might not be someone we have right now. Then you've got Rolston on the third line - so what happens to Zino?

I guess I see a bit of a problem down the middle which is that it'd be nice to see what Bergeron can do, it'd be nice to develop Zino but maybe not with a top-3 spot in the depth chart, and you've got Rolston clogging up a roster slot.

In some ways, I see the solution being to see what you could do with Rolston in a trade, plus whatever, to try to uncork a 2nd line winger somewhere. If that happens, then I guess Zino bounces around lines 2-4 depending on how things go. Having Rolston in there, Bergeron the rookie, plus Zino and his "one way" attitude, it's a bit tough to work it out. Personally, I'd like to see an Owen Nolan type (a healthy version, not him) playing on line two.

 
Old
11-07-2003, 11:27 AM
  #17
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if i remember correctly, bergeron started off on a lower line last year in juniors, and became the go-to guy in the playoffs. i wouldn't be surprised that as the season goes on, bergeron moves up the ladder.

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11-07-2003, 11:48 AM
  #18
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I'd give it some more time. Lapointe says he's getting quality chances: http://www.boston.com/sports/hockey/...ussian_forces/

And, I like Zino's defensive instincts.

If Sully was comfortable with Bergeron's defensive play at center, he'd already be centering the third line instead of Rolston...

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11-08-2003, 09:45 AM
  #19
Jeff from Maine
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misterjaggers Hit On A KEY Point

misterjaggers hit on a VERY key point here.

Bergeron WOULD possibly already be a CENTER if his defense could handle it!

But the fact is that he is on the wing for a reason...

His defensive EFFort is unquestioned. BUT, his defensive effectiveness is below average at the pivot slot.

He doesnrt have the beef to play against big centers, nor does he have the speed to cover quick offensive centers. In other words, he would fall apart against many guys on top 2 lines.

Where he is currently playing, on the right with Axelsson and Rolston is PERFECT! Rolston has the size and speed to play any centers. Axelsson has the determination and speed to play the passing lanes.

All Bergeron has to do is make a simple decision based on where the puck is...

1. Do I bust in on the forecheck

OR...

2. Do I drop back and play a zone

Playing with the 2 best defensive forwards on the team is a very good coaching ploy by Sully, when it comes to maximizing the success of this young man!

Playing with Sammy, he would without question HAVE to focus more on defense, because Sammy is not a good defensive forward and oftne gets back late! That would be an incredible adjustment for him! He could do it, but it would adversely affect this team for a decent strecth, IMHO.

And on the top line with Knubes and Thornton?

I think thats the WORST place he could be!

Puts so much MORE pressure on Thornton and KNuble to carry that line offensively! Murray may have the quickest release inthe game. No offense to Bergeron, but his shooting is weak! His furtherst goal is about 5 feet from the net!

The RW on that line needs to set up shop near the circle and be able to make that shot on a regular basis. Murry, IMHO, is the ONLY wing we have who can play that role, other than possibly Rolston!

The LW needs to be able to grind and crash the crease. Knubes does that wonderfully...but then again, he has about 40 pounds on Bergeron. Patrice, IMHO, is way too small to hndle that role as well!

I would not move him at all.

Sullivanm obviosly has this kids best interests and development at heart. And I think he is doing a PERFECT job of handling him!

You put kids into situations n which they can succeed! You DONT put an 18 year old into a situation in whcih team success depends on him!

Look at what that pressure is doing to the production of Staal...he would be doing so much better if he had another quality top 2 line player on the Canes. If he could play 3rd line he would be better off!

Dont screw with Bergeron...he is developing nicely!

Later

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11-08-2003, 11:18 AM
  #20
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As I have posted a few times, I absolutely hate the "water down 3 lines" approach that is so common today. I want the 6 best offensive forwards on the first 2 lines and 3 solid 2-way players on the 3rd. For most of the past 50 years teams won in the NHL with 2 strong scoring lines, 1 line that was good defensively and could chip in some offense and one energy/ in your face line. As I see it the B's could be very strong with this approach using the following line combos.


Rolston Joe Bergeron
Sammy Zino Murray
Axelsson Green Knuble
McCarthy Zam Lapointe

IMO Rolston has got to be on a wing and he can take the place of Murray, as he shoots nearly as well. Bergeron continues to play with Rolston and gets the bonus of playing with one of the top 10 players in the league as well. Murray can plant himself around the front of the net and take advantage of feeds/rebounds from the Sergei's. The Green line can be on the ice against one of the other teams top 2 lines or in situations where there is an important faceoff. I know that Lapointe is on the 4th line, and that does bug me a bit b/c I like him, but Murray should do more with the skilled Sergei's and his work along the boards is about as good as Marty's. I also know Knuble gets a bit of a raw deal here as well, but he's verstatile enough to play any style/role, so he goes down to a more classic checking line.

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11-08-2003, 12:16 PM
  #21
BruinsCupNow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff from Maine
misterjaggers hit on a VERY key point here.

Bergeron WOULD possibly already be a CENTER if his defense could handle it!

But the fact is that he is on the wing for a reason...

His defensive EFFort is unquestioned. BUT, his defensive effectiveness is below average at the pivot slot.

He doesnrt have the beef to play against big centers, nor does he have the speed to cover quick offensive centers. In other words, he would fall apart against many guys on top 2 lines.

Where he is currently playing, on the right with Axelsson and Rolston is PERFECT! Rolston has the size and speed to play any centers. Axelsson has the determination and speed to play the passing lanes.

All Bergeron has to do is make a simple decision based on where the puck is...

1. Do I bust in on the forecheck

OR...

2. Do I drop back and play a zone

Playing with the 2 best defensive forwards on the team is a very good coaching ploy by Sully, when it comes to maximizing the success of this young man!

Playing with Sammy, he would without question HAVE to focus more on defense, because Sammy is not a good defensive forward and oftne gets back late! That would be an incredible adjustment for him! He could do it, but it would adversely affect this team for a decent strecth, IMHO.

And on the top line with Knubes and Thornton?

I think thats the WORST place he could be!

Puts so much MORE pressure on Thornton and KNuble to carry that line offensively! Murray may have the quickest release inthe game. No offense to Bergeron, but his shooting is weak! His furtherst goal is about 5 feet from the net!

The RW on that line needs to set up shop near the circle and be able to make that shot on a regular basis. Murry, IMHO, is the ONLY wing we have who can play that role, other than possibly Rolston!

The LW needs to be able to grind and crash the crease. Knubes does that wonderfully...but then again, he has about 40 pounds on Bergeron. Patrice, IMHO, is way too small to hndle that role as well!

I would not move him at all.

Sullivanm obviosly has this kids best interests and development at heart. And I think he is doing a PERFECT job of handling him!

You put kids into situations n which they can succeed! You DONT put an 18 year old into a situation in whcih team success depends on him!

Look at what that pressure is doing to the production of Staal...he would be doing so much better if he had another quality top 2 line player on the Canes. If he could play 3rd line he would be better off!

Dont screw with Bergeron...he is developing nicely!

Later
Couldn't agree more.

--BCN

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11-08-2003, 06:22 PM
  #22
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So Bruwinz20, no matter how it happened, the lines did end up getting tweaked. What do you think of Samsonov being paired with Bergeron over the next 5+ games? If it works, I wonder what it means for Zinovjev. Either he get's worked back in somehow or it's determined he doesn't fit. That could either mean Providence, some sort of trade or Russia.

Right now, I think the guy just needs time in the pros. He would benefit from playing in all situations in the AHL, but that doesn't seem entirely probable with his `tude. Maybe he can work himself back onto the team and can show his stuff, but I really think he would need time on the ice and patience by the coaching staff. The B's may not have that luxury. So...how it unfolds should be interesting.

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11-08-2003, 08:39 PM
  #23
Bruwinz37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeisterBruinmaker
So Bruwinz20, no matter how it happened, the lines did end up getting tweaked. What do you think of Samsonov being paired with Bergeron over the next 5+ games? If it works, I wonder what it means for Zinovjev. Either he get's worked back in somehow or it's determined he doesn't fit. That could either mean Providence, some sort of trade or Russia.

Right now, I think the guy just needs time in the pros. He would benefit from playing in all situations in the AHL, but that doesn't seem entirely probable with his `tude. Maybe he can work himself back onto the team and can show his stuff, but I really think he would need time on the ice and patience by the coaching staff. The B's may not have that luxury. So...how it unfolds should be interesting.
\

Samsonov and Bergeron should stay together. It makes too much sense. I have no problem with Zinovjev on the fourth line. His defensive ability is fine, his effort is there, and he can provide offense. What I dont want is him to go back to Russia. He IS an NHL player and guys like Grosek and Zams will be gone soon and there will be room for him. Let him get time, and dont let anyone think that he isnt playing well because he really is.

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