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Proposal:Four Way Deal TOR/DET/NYI/WAS

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Old
06-20-2006, 02:50 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinordi24
Again who would you rather have:

Semin (who has everybit of potential and skill as Datsyuk) IN ADDITION TO $4 million in player(s)

or

Datsyuk (a player who is a proven choker)

I don't consider Datsyuk a proven choker so therein lies the problem. I also think that Semin's high end would be equal to Datsyuk. I don't think he will be as good, but OV will certainly help. As for the money, if you have it to spend what would you save it for?

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Old
06-20-2006, 02:50 PM
  #52
JackBauer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalmonkey
Wow, you've listed 3 young defensemen currently playing with the Caps and then a number od defensive prospects and insinuated that the Caps don't need defensemen...that is clever.

Look, the Leafs are set on D too!

Carlo Colaiacovo
Brendan Bell
Ian White
Staffan Kronwall
Dmitri Vorobiev
Andy Wozniewski
Jay Harrison
Anton Stralman
Bruno Gervais would enter the Caps system as the 5th best d-man under 23. They do not need mediocre defensive depth. Neither does the Leafs. Stick up for Datsuk all you want but negating Gervais/Schultz...a Semin+4th for Datsuk trade would **** Washington

And the Yashin reference is applicable. Before the trade, everyone thought Yashin was a top-flight, superstar centre. He got traded for an undrafted player (the 2nd overall pick). Now, every GM in the league would take Spezza over Yashin in a heartbeat. You claimed that Semin is unproven, that he hasn't played in the NHL and that Datsuk is proven. The reference applies, just like the Brendly reference applies. When you swap a Nhl star for a stud-prospect/draft pick, sure the player that is in the NHL is great because he's proven...but in a couple of years, that stud-prospect that you traded away could be even better. In this trade, you want to trade away not one, but two. Thank you, I'll take Semin and Backstrom/Toews over Datsuk any day.

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Old
06-20-2006, 02:53 PM
  #53
JackBauer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinordi24
Again who would you rather have:

Semin (who has everybit of potential and skill as Datsyuk) IN ADDITION TO $4 million in player(s)

or

Datsyuk (a player who is a proven choker)

I have to correct you man, it's who would you rather have..

Semin AND Toews/Backstrom
or
Datsuk

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Old
06-20-2006, 02:55 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBauer
Bruno Gervais would enter the Caps system as the 5th best d-man under 23. They do not need mediocre defensive depth. Neither does the Leafs. Stick up for Datsuk all you want but negating Gervais/Schultz...a Semin+4th for Datsuk trade would **** Washington

And the Yashin reference is applicable. Before the trade, everyone thought Yashin was a top-flight, superstar centre. He got traded for an undrafted player (the 2nd overall pick). Now, every GM in the league would take Spezza over Yashin in a heartbeat. You claimed that Semin is unproven, that he hasn't played in the NHL and that Datsuk is proven. The reference applies, just like the Brendly reference applies. When you swap a Nhl star for a stud-prospect/draft pick, sure the player that is in the NHL is great because he's proven...but in a couple of years, that stud-prospect that you traded away could be even better. In this trade, you want to trade away not one, but two. Thank you, I'll take Semin and Backstrom/Toews over Datsuk any day.
Impressive assesment from a non-Caps fan!

But the only thing I disagree with you on is that I wouldnt take Datsyuk off WAIVERS if I were the Caps. $5 million???? There are many players who the Caps could get with that that would help them far more.

Salary Cap is a huge concern these days and that doesnt even touch the issue of whether Datsyuk is a useful player on a legitimate contender.

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Old
06-20-2006, 02:58 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalmonkey
I don't consider Datsyuk a proven choker so therein lies the problem. I also think that Semin's high end would be equal to Datsyuk. I don't think he will be as good, but OV will certainly help. As for the money, if you have it to spend what would you save it for?
Datsyuk's playoff stats

Games: 42
Goals: 3
Assists: 12
+/-: -1

Objectively for a player who is a top 20 scorer, this would be deemed a choker.

As for the money you would spend it for a player along the line of Marc Savard's stature AND get to keep Semin AND get to keep Toews/Backstrom.

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06-20-2006, 02:58 PM
  #56
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Why are you letting yourselves get so worked up over a terrible trade proposal in a sea of terrible trade proposals? Just curious.

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Old
06-20-2006, 03:00 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro
Why are you letting yourselves get so worked up over a terrible trade proposal in a sea of terrible trade proposals? Just curious.
A) Because I'm in a SALTY mood

B) I have nothing better to do

C) I think arguing over the internet is pretty retarded...but somehow I'm inevitably drawn towards it........

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Old
06-20-2006, 03:01 PM
  #58
JackBauer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro
Why are you letting yourselves get so worked up over a terrible trade proposal in a sea of terrible trade proposals? Just curious.
work's boring, gotta kill an hour

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Old
06-20-2006, 03:03 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro
Why are you letting yourselves get so worked up over a terrible trade proposal in a sea of terrible trade proposals? Just curious.

Why do you assume we are getting worked up?

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Old
06-20-2006, 03:05 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinordi24
Datsyuk's playoff stats

Games: 42
Goals: 3
Assists: 12
+/-: -1

Objectively for a player who is a top 20 scorer, this would be deemed a choker.

As for the money you would spend it for a player along the line of Marc Savard's stature AND get to keep Semin AND get to keep Toews/Backstrom.
So you won't be paying Semin and Toews/Backstrom anything?

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Old
06-20-2006, 03:05 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalmonkey
Why do you assume we are getting worked up?
Just the alarming rate at which these things are getting thrown back and forth, that's all.

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Old
06-20-2006, 03:06 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBauer
Bruno Gervais would enter the Caps system as the 5th best d-man under 23.

I disagree. I would put Gervais behind only Eminger.

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Old
06-20-2006, 03:08 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalmonkey
So you won't be paying Semin and Toews/Backstrom anything?
Semin is slated to make about $1.2 million each year for the next two and the Caps own his rights for another 2 years after that I believe.

Toews/Backstrom would be making the rookie max and wouldn't be playing until they are at least 20 anyhow. Then the Caps would own their rights for 7 years after that.

Datsyuk would bolt after two years for RSL or another team. Since the Caps wont be contending during those two years whats the point?

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Old
06-20-2006, 03:10 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalmonkey
I disagree. I would put Gervais behind only Eminger.
Mike Green is the Caps best defensive prospect. Eminger is good and so is Morrisonn but all these guys we are talking about are #3-4 dmen in NHL in the future.

Caps need TOP pairing dmen. They have plenty of #3-6 on their teams and are oozing with them in the farm system (Finley, MacNeill, Pokoluk, Schultz, Lepisto, Hedman etc)

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Old
06-20-2006, 03:17 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake1588
I was not addressing you. Wings fans, in general, have been trying to get rid of Datsyuk since the first round. Not all of them, but many such fans. Personally, I don't believe the Wings have any interest in unloading him.
I've been trying to unload him for a year now...
That's a failing on Kenny's part, IMO.

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Old
06-20-2006, 03:18 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBauer
1) I said he was not a top 5 prospect on the Isles. Who cares if they are all forwards? Sure, Gervais is one of the Isles best d-man prospects, only because they have a huge lack of good defensive prospects. It still doesn't make him that great a prospect

2) They don't need him to play next year, the caps don't plan on making the playoffs next year. But they would like some who can play in a year or two.

3) You said nothing about your little team needs clause. You said plain and simple, Gervais =< Toews/Backstrom, which is laughable.

4) If you negate Schultz/Gervais...would anyone else honestly do Semin/4th for Datsuk? Coming from the Caps perspective.
I the Isles don't have a lack of defense prospects at all. The real problem is that they are all the same "type" of player: smallish offense oriented dmen: Grebs, Gervais, and Campoli.

As for Gervais, he is actually a fairly strong prospect. He'd challenge for a top six role on virtually any team in the league next year. I certainly wouldn't put him in the elite category or call him a top-tier prospect. His lack of size and physical strength will be a major issue. But, he was an excellent late round find and the Isles are excited about this progress.

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Old
06-20-2006, 03:19 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
I've been trying to unload him for a year now...
That's a failing on Kenny's part, IMO.
I tend to agree, both that he should and also that he won't be looking to move him.

Datsyuk has skill to burn, but others pay the price. True, that need not matter much in the regular season, and he'll put up points like mad. For the playoffs, it's not going to be Datsyuk getting his nose dirty. Kind of like Lang, really. Maybe that's not a huge deal for a team like the Caps, but still... I just don't like his type.

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06-20-2006, 03:26 PM
  #68
JackBauer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
I the Isles don't have a lack of defense prospects at all. The real problem is that they are all the same "type" of player: smallish offense oriented dmen: Grebs, Gervais, and Campoli.

As for Gervais, he is actually a fairly strong prospect. He'd challenge for a top six role on virtually any team in the league next year. I certainly wouldn't put him in the elite category or call him a top-tier prospect. His lack of size and physical strength will be a major issue. But, he was an excellent late round find and the Isles are excited about this progress.

Fair enough, still wouldn't trade Semin and Toews/Backstrom for him and Datsuk.

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Old
06-20-2006, 03:29 PM
  #69
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You know what....I think other HF posters see Detroit fans (including myself) talk about Datsyuk's lack of post-season success and assume he's soft, or he's completely overwhelmed in big games. So guys like Tinordi call him a "disaster" and others call him a flop. Let's get something clear....Datsyuk's only knock is his failure to put up numbers in the playoffs. Every other aspect of his game (as a #1 center) is fine. He's responsible defensively, he works hard and his desire is just as strong as anyone else on the Wings. This past season was his 4th season (2nd as Detroit's #1 center) in the league....this is not a situation where a guy has been in the league several years (Yashin, Turgeon....even Thornton) and the book is essentially out on him. Datsyuk is dominant in big games and puts up great numbers on the road. Calling him a "disaster" is a bit over the top.

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Old
06-20-2006, 03:36 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8snake
You know what....I think other HF posters see Detroit fans (including myself) talk about Datsyuk's lack of post-season success and assume he's soft, or he's completely overwhelmed in big games. So guys like Tinordi call him a "disaster" and others call him a flop. Let's get something clear....Datsyuk's only knock is his failure to put up numbers in the playoffs. Every other aspect of his game (as a #1 center) is fine. He's responsible defensively, he works hard and his desire is just as strong as anyone else on the Wings. This past season was his 4th season (2nd as Detroit's #1 center) in the league....this is not a situation where a guy has been in the league several years (Yashin, Turgeon....even Thornton) and the book is essentially out on him. Datsyuk is dominant in big games and puts up great numbers on the road. Calling him a "disaster" is a bit over the top.
I see your point but for me I've not knocked one part of his game...SAVE for his playoff performances!! Because of this it is reasonable for one to infer he is "soft" as the playoffs everyone steps it up a notch especially in the physicality department.

Playoff performance is the number one berometer of a playe'rs value over the course of their careers IMO. Nothing else comes close.

Point Blank: Datsyuk is a disaster. If you dont produce at all when it counts the most it is fair to be deemed as such. Who knows, maybe he'll turn it around. But he had opportunities on strong detroit teams so its not like he is skating around with bums.

Players like Claude Lemieux, Dale Hunter, Clark Gillies (Fernando Pisani for current example) are the polar opposite of the Datsyuk's and Yashin's. They produce in the playoffs.

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Old
06-20-2006, 03:52 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBauer
Fair enough, still wouldn't trade Semin and Toews/Backstrom for him and Datsuk.
I'd agree with you there. Semin, Toews, and Backstrom are top-tier prospects. Gervais is simply not close to that level.

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06-20-2006, 04:08 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8snake
You know what....I think other HF posters see Detroit fans (including myself) talk about Datsyuk's lack of post-season success and assume he's soft, or he's completely overwhelmed in big games. So guys like Tinordi call him a "disaster" and others call him a flop. Let's get something clear....Datsyuk's only knock is his failure to put up numbers in the playoffs. Every other aspect of his game (as a #1 center) is fine. He's responsible defensively, he works hard and his desire is just as strong as anyone else on the Wings. This past season was his 4th season (2nd as Detroit's #1 center) in the league....this is not a situation where a guy has been in the league several years (Yashin, Turgeon....even Thornton) and the book is essentially out on him. Datsyuk is dominant in big games and puts up great numbers on the road. Calling him a "disaster" is a bit over the top.
I'm also not willing to write off his playoff game either. I have a feeling he'll turn it around. He has too much talent not too.

With Datysuk, I'm more concerned about his impending UFA status than anything else. He might not be that easy to sign for some teams.

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06-20-2006, 04:12 PM
  #73
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Darth, I agree with you that Gervais doesn't have the flash that comes with prospects like Semin and Backstrom, but I think he can be just as important to an NHL roster. The guy impresses me every time he comes up. He plays like a 10 year veteran, and he never seems to make a mistake. Sure, he's relatively small, but he WILL bulk up and if he keeps progressing, I don't see why he couldn't turn into a Wade Redden type defenceman. The guy is just a smart hockey player.

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06-20-2006, 04:59 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
With Datysuk, I'm more concerned about his impending UFA status than anything else. He might not be that easy to sign for some teams.
Certainly an important issue for a really poor team (a la Washington). It's another reason I think a team that is just on the outside looking into the playoff picture, in the #15-20 range, would be more inclined to both give up some youth and feel pretty good about Datsyuk's procilivities to re-sign when he attains his freedom.

A bottom feeder is a bad fit in a Datsyuk deal. Mid-range is the way to go, if he's shopped at all.

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06-20-2006, 05:07 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by blinkman360
Darth, I agree with you that Gervais doesn't have the flash that comes with prospects like Semin and Backstrom, but I think he can be just as important to an NHL roster. The guy impresses me every time he comes up. He plays like a 10 year veteran, and he never seems to make a mistake. Sure, he's relatively small, but he WILL bulk up and if he keeps progressing.
Gervais will probably end up a servicable NHL defenseman like Hedican or something to that degree. If the Islanders tried to trade one of the three guys(Campoli, Gervais and Grebeshkov) i would assume Grebs would get the most back since he has the most potential(although he is most likely to be the dud of the 3)

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