HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Fix the Flames

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-08-2003, 08:54 AM
  #26
zeppelin97
Registered User
 
zeppelin97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country: Japan
Posts: 752
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin Pad
I'm a die hard Flames fan, but the answer to thier problems is in the draft. They just aren't going to get fair value back for guys like Iggy. They need to build the team back up through the draft. They made a good start in this summer's draft by getting guys like Phaneuf and Rambolt. That's what they have to continue to do. Sorry, but there are no quick fixes here - I know that the Flames have gone a long time without results, but it will still take a long time to get where they should be.
No team should rely soley on the draft because its a crap shoot, especially since it seems the flames will pick 7-12 most likely. The draft is still important (as it is for every team). Its going to take shrewd trading, signing and a lot of luck also.

The kings were one of the worst teams in the league in 1996, and they also had the worst farm system. Kings traded for stumpel, murray (gone), allison, luc, deadmarsh, miller, palffy, norstrom, chechmanek all for extras. The turnaround was quick also, as it took only 3 years to become solid.

zeppelin97 is offline  
Old
11-08-2003, 09:04 AM
  #27
Lanny MacDonald*
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Tuvalu
Posts: 4,457
vCash: 500
Stay the course. Instead of abandoning players left and right, the Flames need to stick with their players and allow them to develop some critic mass. Having said that, its time to trade Iginla and his massive salary. Its better to have three guys making $2.5 million than one guy making $7.5 million.

Lanny MacDonald* is offline  
Old
11-08-2003, 09:16 AM
  #28
Sec of Partying Down
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Moscow, Idaho
Country: United States
Posts: 3,035
vCash: 500
Don't panic...

The Oilers were shutout twice in a similar fashion, lost 3-0 Canucks, a cup contender, and then to the Flames, a playoff contender. But what they really need to do is get a goaltender that the Flames can play with confidence in front of. I think bringing in Hurme is the best option. Secondly, I would trade for a PP QB maybe Poti. Thrid, I wouldn't do anything drastic, keep Iginla and Conroy.

Sec of Partying Down is offline  
Old
11-08-2003, 09:19 AM
  #29
Dr Love
Registered User
 
Dr Love's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Location, Location!
Posts: 20,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Zoidberg
I sure would, in this context.

I think it's rather akin to Williams and Vandermeer for Bertuzzi. I rather doubt you would pull the trigger on that.
Make it Gagne instead of Williams. Williams is too damn valuable to the Flyers right now to deal him. Gagne is starting to look like a brittle player.

Dr Love is offline  
Old
11-08-2003, 09:21 AM
  #30
Burke's Evil Spirit
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 15,837
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotTheRat
does Iginla really have that much value at this point? People in his salary range are commonly referred to as "unmoveable" and while I don't think that is the case w/Iggy his contract and lack of production would indicate that moving him wouldn't be as easy as some of us might think. You can eliminate 20 teams from the list of potential destinations based on his salary alone. Reduces the market greatly and impacts what you can expect in return.
Yeah, I don't think Iginla, at this point, would fetch much return on the trade table.

Burke's Evil Spirit is offline  
Old
11-08-2003, 09:28 AM
  #31
Lanny MacDonald*
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Tuvalu
Posts: 4,457
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Yeah, I don't think Iginla, at this point, would fetch much return on the trade table.
Riiiiiiiiiiiight!!! Just like Naslund or Bertuzzi wouldn't fetch much in a deal. What a load.

Lanny MacDonald* is offline  
Old
11-08-2003, 09:30 AM
  #32
Burke's Evil Spirit
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 15,837
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny MacDonald
Riiiiiiiiiiiight!!! Just like Naslund or Bertuzzi wouldn't fetch much in a deal. What a load.
$7.5 million question marks don't get you much return. Iginla has done nothing to justify his salary since 2001-2002.

Burke's Evil Spirit is offline  
Old
11-08-2003, 11:20 AM
  #33
Lanny MacDonald*
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Tuvalu
Posts: 4,457
vCash: 500
Sure thing Sparky. What ever you say. 35 goals for a team that managed 186 for the season. And he did that playing with Craig Conroy and zero supporting cast. That's accounting for almost 19 percent of his team's goals. Just for fun, and comparison sake, Bertuzzi scored 46 for the Canucks, a team that scored 264 for the season, or 17.4 percent of the Canucks goals. That while playing with an almost Art Ross winner and a pretty decent supporting cast. Yeah, Iginla is crap and "Bert" and "Nazzy" are superstars. Paint one with a brush the same strokes apply to the others as well.

Lanny MacDonald* is offline  
Old
11-08-2003, 11:32 AM
  #34
Badger Bob
Registered User
 
Badger Bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: in my happy place
Country: Germany
Posts: 5,288
vCash: 500
These same types of threads were posted last year, and they elicited the same cliche answers. A #1 defenseman...another first liner...the list goes on and on. A team tastes the champagne with outstanding coaching and All World goaltending.

Take a look at New Jersey. Oleg Tverdovsky, sort of a poor man's Sandish Ozolinsh, was dressed for most of the playoffs. He would seem to fit the description of "#1 defenseman." Joe Nieuwendyk, no longer a top line center, but was for NJ, was hurt. Scott Gomez, not exactly a top line center either, moved into that spot. Look at the entire Devils lineup from last year's playoffs. It didn't fit any set formula. Lou Lamiorello's waved bye-bye to established forwards, such as Bill Guerin, Brendan Morrison & Bobby Holik, without missing a beat. He must be doing something right.

Some of the trade proposals must get laughed at, if real life General Managers bother to stop by and read some of this stuff. Like some Joe Blow, with a few thousand posts on a message board, is going to know what such and such a player's actual "value" is around the league.

News flash: if Daryl Sutter wanted to make Jarome Iginla available, he would command a SUBSTANTIAL return. Players of his ilk (i.e. young, proven, elite-level power forwards) are a highly desired commodity, which any GM would love to have on his team. For starters, the NY Rangers, Philadelphia and Detroit would make serious inquiries. Dallas, Colorado and Toronto would at least express interest. Then, a few other clubs other clubs with a GM looking to make a spash (Montreal? et al) would phone in just to put feelers out.

Badger Bob is offline  
Old
11-08-2003, 11:35 AM
  #35
Laperriere22*
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: CO
Country: Denmark
Posts: 3,875
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny MacDonald
Sure thing Sparky. What ever you say. 35 goals for a team that managed 186 for the season. And he did that playing with Craig Conroy and zero supporting cast. That's accounting for almost 19 percent of his team's goals. Just for fun, and comparison sake, Bertuzzi scored 46 for the Canucks, a team that scored 264 for the season, or 17.4 percent of the Canucks goals. That while playing with an almost Art Ross winner and a pretty decent supporting cast. Yeah, Iginla is crap and "Bert" and "Nazzy" are superstars. Paint one with a brush the same strokes apply to the others as well.
I don't agree that Iginla has done nothing to justify his salary, but he's still not a liquid asset in today's NHL with a long-term deal paying him $7.5 million and up. That kind of contract wipes out well over half of the league in terms of trading options. Bertuzzi and Naslund aren't making that kind of bread and as such, they would be much more liquid IMO.

Laperriere22* is offline  
Old
11-08-2003, 11:46 AM
  #36
Burke's Evil Spirit
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 15,837
vCash: 500
Quote:
And he did that playing with Craig Conroy and zero supporting cast.
How is this relevant? Iginla has shown he can be dominant player with Conroy. I love how all of the sudden Iginla sucks because he has no supporting cast. It's not like Craig Button traded away an All-Star team over the summer of 2002. Surely Derek Morris wasn't that important.

Quote:
That's accounting for almost 19 percent of his team's goals. Just for fun, and comparison sake, Bertuzzi scored 46 for the Canucks, a team that scored 264 for the season, or 17.4 percent of the Canucks goals. That while playing with an almost Art Ross winner and a pretty decent supporting cast. Yeah, Iginla is crap and "Bert" and "Nazzy" are superstars. Paint one with a brush the same strokes apply to the others as well.
If you see that as valid, whatever. Personally, I think the "supporting cast" argument is one of the most over-used and irrelevent things posters on these boards use. You have to be a Gretzky- or Lemieux-level talent, IMO, to be able to inflate a linemate's stats to the point where they receive undeserved praise.

Burke's Evil Spirit is offline  
Old
11-08-2003, 11:50 AM
  #37
Burke's Evil Spirit
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 15,837
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Bob
News flash: if Daryl Sutter wanted to make Jarome Iginla available, he would command a SUBSTANTIAL return. Players of his ilk (i.e. young, proven, elite-level power forwards) are a highly desired commodity, which any GM would love to have on his team. For starters, the NY Rangers, Philadelphia and Detroit would make serious inquiries. Dallas, Colorado and Toronto would at least express interest. Then, a few other clubs other clubs with a GM looking to make a spash (Montreal? et al) would phone in just to put feelers out.
First of all, given their off-seasons, I doubt Dallas, Toronto, Detroit and Philadelphia would be in the running for Iginla. Montreal, too - Gainey isn't stupid, he won't sacrifice the rebuilding movement for Iginla. Then what do you have? The Rangers. Colorado. Not much of a market.

Burke's Evil Spirit is offline  
Old
11-08-2003, 05:49 PM
  #38
Bicycle Repairman
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,694
vCash: 500
Flames are just fine as they are. Wouldn't change a thing.

Bicycle Repairman is offline  
Old
11-09-2003, 12:18 AM
  #39
kruezer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 6,281
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bicycle Repairman
Flames are just fine as they are. Wouldn't change a thing.
I agree. Maybe a little move here or there (like getting RID of Dean McAmmond, he ain't worth a million and a half, we have to get rid of him since were eating Turek's contract for another year or two). And other than Ovechkin, I'm really not all that excited about this draft, not that I want the Flames to trade their first rounder, but I wouldn't rely on this pick to necessarily do much. Once this team starts putting the puck in the net (which I have faith they will after the upcoming sked) they will be fine. If they need they could make a move like I suggested earlier, but lets not trade the Franchise (Iginla), Sutter has said things about changing up the contract and extended it (I think next years an option am I right? or maybe the year after?) If we can convince Iggy to stay the course in Calgary and resign him for 5 mill or less, he is definetaly worth keeping. Try and keep Conroy around (for perhaps 2 mill) and Gelinas (maybe down to 1.5? depends on his market value). We aren't going anywhere if we just trade ALL our veterans. You CAN'T win without SOME veterans. I mean I know people around here are obsessed with youth, but youth doesn't necessarily win right away, so why should we trade our top older players (though Conroy is a FA so his story could be diff, but I hope he can be convinced to WANT to stay, I think 2-2.5 mill is his M.V. and we CAN afford that, if he starts producing) when we could keep them and most of them will do more good than harm. Our teams average age (well for the opening night roster) is still just 27 years old, I don't want us to be super old, but not super young either, 27-28 is a good level to keep the average age. But I digress, we need not too be rash (you guys have pointed out what rashness has done to us before). I mean, maybe one move is all I'd like, not to rebuild the whole team. (Gauthier, Sappy and a 2nd for a center, of the scoring variety, is pretty much the only move I'd like). I think the team we have right now could make the playoffs, people look at the Flame players and think they're just crap, but that ain't the case. Once the Reinprecht-Conroy-Iginla line starts going (which I have faith they will), they are a solid scoring line. We could use a 2nd line center, cause I don't like having Lombardi and Kobasew on the same line, and I don't think Lombardi is quite ready to be the 2nd line C we need. Having him or Kobasew in the PB at times wouldn't hurt IMO. Having Yelle and Donovan is 2/3 of a severly underrated 3rd line (and Sappy has seemed to be finding a home with them which is a good sign). The fourth line isn't anything special, but we ain't asking them to dominate, Oliwa/Lowry-Betts-Clark do their job, it may seem bad to some, but its alot better than having Nichol or Begin on our fourth line, that I am sure of. The defense is still underrated, I would like an older puck-rusher to teach Leopold the ropes, but I don't think you can say this group is poor, Warrener and Lydman are both underrated (though Warrener is injury prone, but hey, things can change). Gauthier and Ference are not great, but solid, Ference could still work on his defense and Gauthier still gets out of position (which is why they shouldn't ever get on together, but with one of Lydman or Warrener) but they are at least as good and most other 5/6 d-men out there. Regehr-Leopold need to play better, but its not like they've been awful, they will start playing very well very soon IMO. The goaltending is really risky, which brings us down, Turek was a big mistake (Button and money didn't mix well, its definetaly the reason he's gone), but hey we have to go with it, if he can get some confidence he'll be fine since our team-d is much improved on prior years, and this fact should help his confidence.

The Flames can make the playoffs, or they might not, but its certainly not time to fire Sutter (some of you do realize we just got him right?) he's brought stability and a good attitude that was laking with Button/Gilbert. And it ain't time to rebuild (we did, its not time to get only old guys, but lets not trade all our older players please, that will set us back another 7 years of non-playoff teams, this team is ready to win now thanks). Screw rebuilding (from worry of the CBA or whatever reason) I say, if the right move is there make it (Sutter's GMing has been comendable so far too IMO) but if it ain't, no rush, lean on the guys we have, this team can do it themselves. Put up the Ws and stop worrying about the future only, that thought is nothing but bad news for this team.

kruezer is offline  
Old
11-09-2003, 12:52 AM
  #40
Av-merican
@Av_merican
 
Av-merican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Frozen Wasteland
Country: Scotland
Posts: 12,498
vCash: 500
Let's face it, the reason the Flames have been in this perpetual rebuilding mode is because they drafted poorly. Huge mistakes like Daniel Tkaczuk spring to mind.

This team is way too dependent on Iginla for their offense, and he's been a huge disappointment so far. I was willing to give him the excuses last season, given that Morris wasn't feeding him the puck up-ice and his injuries, but he has NO such excuses this season. With Leopold and Lydman on the blueline and McAmmond back in the fold (at least until he got hurt), he should at least be producing reasonable numbers. He's not. Either Jarome's not working hard enough ot Conroy has regressed back into the ordinary center he was in St. Louis. I thought it was a great idea for Iginla to finally hold the mantle of captain. So far he has yet to live up to that C. Don't get me wrong, I think Iginla's still top-tier talent, but so far he's been invisible...

Anyhow, there are also some players on the roster who simply won't progress any further and should be moved. Martin Gelinas was a 3rd liner in Carolina for a reason, and Button dropped goal-scorer's money for him. As for Oleg Saprykin, he's not tough enough to really be the kind of forward Sutter likes, and quite frankly I don't see him as more than a 10-15 goal scorer.

The defense? Yes, it's one of the better ones in the league, but has yet to REALLY live up to its potential. Regehr has the size and talent to be one of the top five defensemen in the league. Lydman should be way more productive from the blueline than he is. So far the only guy I've seen show a little flash is Leopold. The others have been solid, but unspectacular.

Right now this team is too small and too unbalanced on offense. I won't even go into the goaltending situation. They have too many little guys like Reinprecht, Saprykin, Gelinas...keep one if you must, but move the others any way you can. Try out Kobasew on the left wing alongside Conroy and Iginla--maybe three physical guys like that on one line might click. Hey, it worked in Boston...

Av-merican is offline  
Old
11-09-2003, 05:50 AM
  #41
Badger Bob
Registered User
 
Badger Bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: in my happy place
Country: Germany
Posts: 5,288
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
Montreal, too - Gainey isn't stupid, he won't sacrifice the rebuilding movement for Iginla
Yeah, that must be the reason Gainey (and Button) drafted Iginla, intially. Iginla is exactly the type of player to build around. Nobody ever publicly (and emphatically) stated that the Canadiens were in rebuilding mode either. Just because the rumor of Gainey offering any 3 players off the Canadiens roster (except Theodore) received mostly derision on the Trade Rumors board, doesn't mean such a phone call didn't actually take place. GMs have these types of convos on a frequent basis.

Badger Bob is offline  
Old
04-01-2004, 10:33 AM
  #42
looooob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,885
vCash: 500
interesting thread to bump to the top given what's happened last night

some people actually said some pretty insightful things in this thread, others...not so much....

looooob is offline  
Old
04-01-2004, 11:20 AM
  #43
FLAMESFAN
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Antarctica
Posts: 2,571
vCash: 50
I like how so many fans from other teams seen to know our team so well.
Now how about all this Iggy has no value crap?

FLAMESFAN is offline  
Old
04-01-2004, 11:24 AM
  #44
NFITO
hockeyinsanity*****
 
NFITO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,933
vCash: 500
don't worry... we'll still be talking about how to "fix the flames" after they bow out in 4 against the canucks

NFITO is offline  
Old
04-01-2004, 11:28 AM
  #45
FLAMESFAN
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Antarctica
Posts: 2,571
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
don't worry... we'll still be talking about how to "fix the flames" after they bow out in 4 against the canucks

This is why we are going to love sending you guys golfing..............

FLAMESFAN is offline  
Old
04-01-2004, 11:30 AM
  #46
NFITO
hockeyinsanity*****
 
NFITO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,933
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLAMESFAN
This is why we are going to love sending you guys golfing..............
if we go, then we'll make sure to give you guys a call for some pointers... afterall 7 straight years of golfing has gotta make you guys the pro!

NFITO is offline  
Old
04-01-2004, 11:30 AM
  #47
Fictional Realism
Moustache Power
 
Fictional Realism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The Crease
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,505
vCash: 894
Heh, bumping this thread is the most pointless thing ever. Put the FLAME in 'FLAME'er.

And Iginla still isn't worth 7.5 million.

Fictional Realism is offline  
Old
04-01-2004, 11:35 AM
  #48
FLAMESFAN
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Antarctica
Posts: 2,571
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
if we go, then we'll make sure to give you guys a call for some pointers... afterall 7 straight years of golfing has gotta make you guys the pro!

I think that was why Granr Fuhr signed with us a few years ago!

FLAMESFAN is offline  
Old
04-01-2004, 11:39 AM
  #49
Martin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 281
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by westcoast
Heh, bumping this thread is the most pointless thing ever. Put the FLAME in 'FLAME'er.

And Iginla still isn't worth 7.5 million.

He is when Joseph's worth 8 mill and Holik's worth 9....

Martin is offline  
Old
04-01-2004, 12:16 PM
  #50
looooob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,885
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by westcoast
Heh, bumping this thread is the most pointless thing ever. Put the FLAME in 'FLAME'er.

And Iginla still isn't worth 7.5 million.
ok, sorry to waste your time by bumping the thread...I didn't do it in a "I told you so" fashion, some people Flames fans and non-Flames fans alike made some very good points in this thread back in the fall...others did not...and yes the usual "Iginla is an over-rated, overpaid one hit wonder that couldn't carry Naslund/Bertuzzi's jockstrap" is part of that

looooob is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:05 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.