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So....this is what it takes to get Pronger?

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Old
06-29-2006, 05:12 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Nefarious
Thanks for the welcome, Spongebob. I didn't do an introductory post; I just kind of jumped into the fray, so to speak. Out of all the Kings forums I've been to, this is the best one.
Welcome!

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Old
06-29-2006, 05:23 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Nefarious
Out of all the Kings forums I've been to, this is the best one.
You have a keen eye for quality (board-wise and poster-wise), if I do say so, myself (and I do) . Welcome.

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06-29-2006, 05:25 PM
  #28
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You don't re-build with 2nd liners and 4-6 dmen. They are a dime a dozen. Of the top 8 scorers in the NHL last season only Alfreddson was drafted lower than #5 overall. Either you get top picks or you're screwed, the Kings are the latter. Again, until guys like Miller and Norstrom are dealt this team is not re-building, they merely traded away 1 guy who wasn't the oldest or worst player on the team. The 4 conference finalists all missed the playoffs the last time the NHL played, it's not about re-building it's about putting the pieces of a puzzle together. Guys like Chara and Pronger are rare pieces you don't find, if you can get them for the right price you do it.

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06-29-2006, 05:36 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen
You don't re-build with 2nd liners and 4-6 dmen. They are a dime a dozen. Of the top 8 scorers in the NHL last season only Alfreddson was drafted lower than #5 overall. Either you get top picks or you're screwed, the Kings are the latter. Again, until guys like Miller and Norstrom are dealt this team is not re-building, they merely traded away 1 guy who wasn't the oldest or worst player on the team. The 4 conference finalists all missed the playoffs the last time the NHL played, it's not about re-building it's about putting the pieces of a puzzle together. Guys like Chara and Pronger are rare pieces you don't find, if you can get them for the right price you do it.

Demitra was the first move. Do you really think that Lombardi is done? Over the next 3 months I expect at least 2 or 3 more veterans to be moved. I really think that 2 or more of these guys will be on different rosters come October.....Norstrom, Miller, Sopel, Conroy and Armstrong.

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06-29-2006, 05:50 PM
  #30
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Why trading for Pronger when you can get Chara or Jovanosvski for free?

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06-29-2006, 05:55 PM
  #31
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Norstrom and Conroy are here to stay.
The Kings are rebuilding, but rebuilding doesn't mean destroying.

Come on, we're not the '90s Senators, things don't look so bad IMO.

About Pronger...why do you need to trade for him when you can get Chara or Jovo for free?

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06-29-2006, 06:05 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albi
Norstrom and Conroy are here to stay.
The Kings are rebuilding, but rebuilding doesn't mean destroying.

Come on, we're not the '90s Senators, things don't look so bad IMO.

About Pronger...why do you need to trade for him when you can get Chara or Jovo for free?
It's interesting you bring up the 90's Senators. I remember thinking back a long time ago that the Senator's weren't going to go anywhere. But they stuck to their guns and kept drafting the talent for years and years. Now look at their team. I'm hoping the Kings stick with the drafting method. I think farm systems and drafting have clearly shown that it is a proven method for success. I think people will remember back in the day when Detroit was horrible (I know a few long time Redwing Fans). But every year I hear about Kings fans more than willing to trade away the young prospects. I hate seeing this happen. I'm very happy DL is GM now, as he seems to display the same thinking about prospects and drafting.

I look forward to seeing what DL will be trying after July 1st.

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Old
06-29-2006, 06:23 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albi
Norstrom and Conroy are here to stay.
The Kings are rebuilding, but rebuilding doesn't mean destroying.

Come on, we're not the '90s Senators, things don't look so bad IMO.

About Pronger...why do you need to trade for him when you can get Chara or Jovo for free?
Agree.

I've already posted my thoughts on this in the Redden thread and elsewhere, so I won't rehash it too much.

The Kings have a relatively strong pool of homegrown offensive talent...not so much on the defense end...I think veteran dumping will occur to the extent that it opens up cap room for solidifying the current D-corps; that could, very likely mean the acquisition of a #1 type D-man.


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Old
06-29-2006, 06:38 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albi
Why trading for Pronger when you can get Chara or Jovanosvski for free?
Because not everyone can get Chara or Jovanovski.

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Old
06-29-2006, 06:47 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by misfit
Because not everyone can get Chara or Jovanovski.
Exactly!!!

In a perfect world we just sign Chara and move along without trading our young guys, but I just don't think we are going to land him.

This is reality, if we have a legit shot to get a guy like Pronger we have to at least consider it.

Frolov/Matty/ and #1 pick is what I would offer. No Gleason, no Brown, and no Cammy.

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06-29-2006, 07:14 PM
  #36
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No chance. There is a good chance that we have a top 5 pick in next year's draft.

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Old
06-29-2006, 07:20 PM
  #37
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You would offer that, but Edmonton would not take it. Offers are a two way street, it's not just about what you would do, but what the other team would do. There's no way that they'd take Norstrom when there are teams lined up that would give them much younger, not to mention better players at a cheaper cost.

Nashville or the Ducks are going to get Pronger because they have good players that don't cost a whole lot. Nashville has quite a few stud defensive prospects and good offensive prospects, so that's who I think will get him.

Would you take an offer of Frolov, Norstrom and a first rounder over an offer of Weber, Hartnell and a first rounder or Getzlaf, Smid and Perry? Of course not. Taking Norstrom or another player with a similar contract would make it tough on them to get a big time defenseman in free agency.
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Old
06-29-2006, 09:04 PM
  #38
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No...To much to give up...especially if we are rebuilding. Something like Frolov, Norstrom, Miller however I would be on board for.

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06-29-2006, 09:50 PM
  #39
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OK guys....lets put this in perspective.

Lombardi just traded away a 31 year old star player to get a 21 and a 19 year old.

Now you want him to trade away a 17, a 23 ,and a 24 year old to get a different 31 year old star.

Those 2 things seem very contradictory to me.

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06-29-2006, 10:25 PM
  #40
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not that I think the Kings should make a trade like that for Pronger...

but a couple of points for Pronger:

- his contract is very good. Redden just signed for 2 yrs at $6.5mill/yr cap hit. Chara will get more. Pronger is signed for 4 more years, and his cap hit is $6mill/yr.

- his age is irrelevant... and really the age of the players you'd be giving up is irrelevant. Pronger is locked up for 4 yrs and should play at his prime level - like most elite dmen at the same age - through the life of the contract. So saying how "old" he is, can impact his experience, possibly character... but not his skill or what he will bring to the club on the ice.

- saying that Frolov and Gleason are young guys as a reason not to do the deal also doesn't really make sense. In less than 4 yrs, both Frolov and Gleason are UFAs. don't they hit UFA status next year? or is it the following year?

so you could also see this deal as getting Pronger locked up for 4yrs, whereas Frolov and Gleason could walk in 2.

All that is not to suggest that the Kings do this deal. But when it comes to the age of the players, as well as overall value of the contract, there are definite positives for Pronger here.

but for the Kings, it'd be a big risk... although if Kopitar and Tukkonen can jump into the lineup next season, it'll be easier to give up Frolov, and I don't think anyone is going to complain about having Pronger instead of Gleason on the defense... that upgrade for the next few years might be worth the 1st??

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06-29-2006, 10:45 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
not that I think the Kings should make a trade like that for Pronger...

but a couple of points for Pronger:

- his contract is very good. Redden just signed for 2 yrs at $6.5mill/yr cap hit. Chara will get more. Pronger is signed for 4 more years, and his cap hit is $6mill/yr.
Can't argue with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
- his age is irrelevant... and really the age of the players you'd be giving up is irrelevant. Pronger is locked up for 4 yrs and should play at his prime level - like most elite dmen at the same age - through the life of the contract. So saying how "old" he is, can impact his experience, possibly character... but not his skill or what he will bring to the club on the ice.
Irrelevant? This team will probably not be a Stanley Cup contender.....let alone winner for 3 more seasons. That would make Pronger almost 35 while Frolov would be almost 28 and Gleason 26.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
- saying that Frolov and Gleason are young guys as a reason not to do the deal also doesn't really make sense. In less than 4 yrs, both Frolov and Gleason are UFAs. don't they hit UFA status next year? or is it the following year
Frolov signed a 5 year contract last year. So he is Kings property for 4 more years.

Gleason would not be eligible for another 4 years either. He is only 23.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
so you could also see this deal as getting Pronger locked up for 4yrs, whereas Frolov and Gleason could walk in 2.
See above

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
All that is not to suggest that the Kings do this deal. But when it comes to the age of the players, as well as overall value of the contract, there are definite positives for Pronger here.
Again...see above

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
but for the Kings, it'd be a big risk... although if Kopitar and Tukkonen can jump into the lineup next season, it'll be easier to give up Frolov, and I don't think anyone is going to complain about having Pronger instead of Gleason on the defense... that upgrade for the next few years might be worth the 1st??
The Kings could have a top 5 pick next year. Would I give up drafting the next Staal or Malkin to get a 32 year old Pronger?

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06-29-2006, 10:55 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by KingofCrunk
With Pronger (the addition of him alone), the Kings are close to a playoff team. If the addition of Pronger would also cause Lombo to make other moves in order to make this team a winner, they'd be more than just a playoff team. But I'm not going to argue the point.

You forgot who the Kings would give up.


Kings + Pronger - Frolov and Gleason = 14th - 20th finish in the standings.

Didn't we get rid of Taylor and Murray to end this string of mediocrity?

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06-29-2006, 11:01 PM
  #43
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[QUOTE=KingofCrunk]With Pronger (the addition of him alone), the Kings are close to a playoff team. ...QUOTE]

We were close the last 3 years without Pronger. Between injuries and ill will we just spiraled in. The core is a better team than has been portayed here lately.

Until we know we can't get a free agent or 2 I would hold off considering Pronger. No use mortgaging the future when you might be able to pay cash.

He is one mean son of a *****. His impact would more than make up for losing a first and whatever else.

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06-29-2006, 11:11 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
- saying that Frolov and Gleason are young guys as a reason not to do the deal also doesn't really make sense. In less than 4 yrs, both Frolov and Gleason are UFAs. don't they hit UFA status next year? or is it the following year?
Frolov has 4 more years on his contract and Gleason won't be a UFA for 4 more years. You do have a point, though, that they'll be UFAs in 4 years, same as Pronger, so considering them "youngsters" in this deal is pointless, in a way.

EDIT: Wow, I'm slow.

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06-29-2006, 11:12 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by guzmania
We were close the last 3 years without Pronger. Between injuries and ill will we just spiraled in. The core is a better team than has been portayed here lately.

Until we know we can't get a free agent or 2 I would hold off considering Pronger. No use mortgaging the future when you might be able to pay cash.

He is one mean son of a *****. His impact would more than make up for losing a first and whatever else.
agreed.

and i can't believe the doomsday season people are predicting here. i think they're underestimating the kings this coming season.

we still don't know what DL is going to do as far as FA go...it might seem like the kings are unloading and rebuilding but I say the core players, when healthy can be very good and be a playoff contender. and getting a pronger would definitely upgrade this team in that direction.

I just don't like gleason being included in the deal...if DL can send Sopel instead (along with maybea Garon), that would be a great deal for the kings.

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06-29-2006, 11:16 PM
  #46
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I don't know about everyone else, but I don't want to be just "a playoff team." I want the Kings to be contenders. And as far as I see it, you only do that when you have depth. Granted star players are great, but they donít win the cup alone. Besides, if we keep drafting well, we already have stars in the making (as long as we donít trade them away). Kings have always traded away their prospects and picks in favor of the veteran available at the time, and it really hasn't worked well for us. People are jumping all over Frolov and frothing at the mouth to trade his @ss. I say at least give him another year and see what he does. If we hold on to prospects and keep drafting well, we'll have so much depth we will do wonders. As others here have pointed out, 3 years seems likely when all this will gel and start coming together, maybe even before then depending on how our current prospects develop. If the Kings make a major trade, I'm hoping it will be for a top five draft choice next year, even if the Kings already have one .

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06-29-2006, 11:28 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefarious
I don't know about everyone else, but I don't want to be just "a playoff team." I want the Kings to be contenders. And as far as I see it, you only do that when you have depth. Granted star players are great, but they donít win the cup alone. Besides, if we keep drafting well, we already have stars in the making (as long as we donít trade them away). Kings have always traded away their prospects and picks in favor of the veteran available at the time, and it really hasn't worked well for us..
you didn't think the oilers were going to be just contenders after the regular season did you?

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06-29-2006, 11:30 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefarious
I don't know about everyone else, but I don't want to be just "a playoff team." I want the Kings to be contenders. And as far as I see it, you only do that when you have depth. Granted star players are great, but they donít win the cup alone. Besides, if we keep drafting well, we already have stars in the making (as long as we donít trade them away). Kings have always traded away their prospects and picks in favor of the veteran available at the time, and it really hasn't worked well for us. People are jumping all over Frolov and frothing at the mouth to trade his @ss. I say at least give him another year and see what he does. If we hold on to prospects and keep drafting well, we'll have so much depth we will do wonders. As others here have pointed out, 3 years seems likely when all this will gel and start coming together, maybe even before then depending on how our current prospects develop. If the Kings make a major trade, I'm hoping it will be for a top five draft choice next year, even if the Kings already have one .
The problem here is that alot of people on these boards speak out of both sides of their mouths. On one thread you see them say "Trading away a 31 year old Demitra to get some young guys is a great move". Then on another thread they say "I would sacrifice 2 young guys to get a 31 year old Pronger". You can't have both people.

We are already down Demitra and know you say that taking away Frolov and Gleason will not affect this teams ability to compete? If I took the time I could find threads on this board that have posts by many of you saying the reason the Kings couldn't win games last year was because Demitra and Frolov were injured now the team doesn't need them. Wow what a difference 5 months makes.

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06-29-2006, 11:33 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by jfont
you didn't think the oilers were going to be just contenders after the regular season did you?
Hey the Flames made it to the Finals in 2004.....did that make them win it this year?

The Kings made it to the Finals in 1993 and didn't even make the post season in 1994.

Finishing second means you are just 1st in a long line of losers.

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06-29-2006, 11:41 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Spongebob
Hey the Flames made it to the Finals in 2004.....did that make them win it this year?

The Kings made it to the Finals in 1993 and didn't even make the post season in 1994.

Finishing second means you are just 1st in a long line of losers.
what i'm saying is when you're in the playoffs, you never know whats going to happen...true, you should have a great regular season...you may not win the cup but that was a darn good run. and even though they didn't win, they did make their fans excited and hopeful...its the journey. not necessarily the destination.

and asking the kings to suck is no kings fan...they're anti-kings fans.

and how many teams in the top 2 in points after the season won the cup? you'll find that they don't always win it.


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