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The "Sign and Trade"

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06-30-2006, 01:35 AM
  #1
SickMonkey
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The "Sign and Trade"

OK, this is something that gets thrown around an awful lot, and to be honest I don't know why. I guess with last years Hossa-Heatley trade it's on a lot of people's minds as a possible option, espescially when making proposals. So I guess I can understand that.

The question is, why do people think that this will work with UFA players? Hossa was a RFA, so he could only sign with the team that owns his rights (as long as said team was willing to match). How do people think this translates to UFAs? For example, why do I hear people talk about trading for Redden now that he's (allegedly) signed with Ottawa?

Granted, anything is possible, but there are a whole helmet full of reasons why this wouldn't happen, and I'll let someone else fill those in, as this is already getting long for a first post. So my question is: Has it ever happened that a UFA was signed by a team, and then traded before ever lacing up for the team that signed him? Is there any basis in reality for the collective wet dream that is occuring over trading for Redden/other flavor of the moment when this idea comes up?

I know that Scatchard was traded last year after signing with the Bruins, and while I thought that was pretty sketchy, it wasn't quite the same situation. He at least played for the Bruins before he was shipped out.

Frankly, my thought is that this idea is junk, and my hope is by putting it up here and letting someone else debunk it, maybe it will reduce the amount of sign and trade UFA deals we see proposed. Of course, there's always the chance that someone will cite some kind of precedence that will only encourage this line of thought, but that is the risk.

Debunk away, debunkereenos.


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06-30-2006, 01:38 AM
  #2
Hemsky is a gangsta
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i think thats why havlat wants a one year deal. he saw the writing on the wall. he doesnt want to get stuck somewhere he didnt sign in for 3 years like hossa. basically i think it hurts you in the future when signing players.

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06-30-2006, 01:39 AM
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If any gm would try to do this .. he could be on the black list for years of some players agents..
you'll never see that unless a gm is drunk or has the name milbury !

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06-30-2006, 01:41 AM
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kdb209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SickMonkey
OK, this is something that gets thrown around an awful lot, and to be honest I don't know why. I guess with last years Hossa-Heatley trade it's on a lot of people's minds as a possible option, espescially when making proposals. So I guess I can understand that.

The question is, why do people think that this will work with UFA players? Hossa was a RFA, so he could only sign with the team that owns his rights (as long as said team was willing to match). How do people think this translates to UFAs? For example, why do I hear people talk about trading for Redden now that he's (allegedly) signed with Ottawa?

Granted, anything is possible, but there are a whole helmet full of reasons why this wouldn't happen, and I'll let someone else fill those in, as this is already getting long for a first post. So my question is: Has it ever happened that a UFA was signed by a team, and then traded before ever lacing up for the team that signed him? Is there any basis in reality for the collective wet dream that is occuring over trading for Redden/other flavor of the moment when this idea comes up?

I know that Scatchard was traded last year after signing with the Bruins, and while I thought that was pretty sketchy, it wasn't quite the same situation. He at least played for the Bruins before he was shipped out.

Frankly, my thought is that this idea is junk, and my hope is by putting it up here and letting someone else debunk it, maybe it will reduce the amount of sign and trade UFA deals we see proposed. Of course, there's always the chance that someone will cite some kind of precedence that will only encourage this line of thought, but that is the risk.

Debunk away, debunkereenos.

Agree on all counts - Sign and Trades of UFA just don't make any sense.

This is NOT the NBA with it's bazillion cap exceptions where a players original team can offer a higher salary than anone else. There a sign and trade can make sense from the players perspective and is usually orchestrated with the players consent.

Any GM who signs a UFA and then immediately turns around and trades him, will quickly find out that noone will sign there again.

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06-30-2006, 01:42 AM
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sandman08
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i think the only way for this kinda situation to "work" would be if the team signing the player did it before the FA period began..
also in that case.. would a team be blacklisted/at fault if they were to be given an offer they couldnt refuse? i mean.. if your redden's agent and shero called up and offered muckler crosby and malkin for redden, would you be upset? blacklist the team? i doubt it (obviously that prop would never happen but you get the point)

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06-30-2006, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kryoptix
If any gm would try to do this .. he could be on the black list for years of some players agents..
you'll never see that unless a gm is drunk or has the name milbury !

Isn't that basically the same thing??

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06-30-2006, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan7
Isn't that basically the same thing??

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06-30-2006, 06:50 AM
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You can do it but it wont help you out on the UFA market in future years, just like sending players down to the AHL or trying to force them to retire.

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06-30-2006, 06:57 AM
  #9
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Havlat may have learned something from Hossa's experience. Hossa was out having a celebratory lunch when he was told he had been traded to Atlanta. It's the way business is done, but you've got to expect players will begin to hedge their bets when dealing with you as a result.

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06-30-2006, 07:25 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekneek
Havlat may have learned something from Hossa's experience. Hossa was out having a celebratory lunch when he was told he had been traded to Atlanta. It's the way business is done, but you've got to expect players will begin to hedge their bets when dealing with you as a result.
Which is why he may have negated much of his trade value saying he will only sign a 1 year contract.

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06-30-2006, 07:27 AM
  #11
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I had created a similar thread on this topic a week or two ago:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=261696

It's happened with some low-end players, but never with anyone high profile. The fact that people still keep bringing it up as a possibility just demonstrates how desperate we are as fans for our teams to hold any value.

If it's going to happen, like someone said, it would be with a free agent that signed an extension well before the summer. After the most recent playoffs, Turco's name was mentioned as potentially being out of Dallas, and Kaberle's name has surfaced as possible trade bait for Pronger. I'm not expecting either of those guys to be traded anytime soon though.

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06-30-2006, 07:37 AM
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Muckler is probably reaping the rewards of giving Hossa the shaft last summer. Deservedly so, too. I wonder if there was any "you're a big part of this club, franchise cornerstone, we'd never trade you" sweet talk in the negotiations. If so, pretty sleazy on the part of the Sens.

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06-30-2006, 08:16 AM
  #13
SickMonkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by discostu
I had created a similar thread on this topic a week or two ago:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=261696

It's happened with some low-end players, but never with anyone high profile. The fact that people still keep bringing it up as a possibility just demonstrates how desperate we are as fans for our teams to hold any value.

If it's going to happen, like someone said, it would be with a free agent that signed an extension well before the summer. After the most recent playoffs, Turco's name was mentioned as potentially being out of Dallas, and Kaberle's name has surfaced as possible trade bait for Pronger. I'm not expecting either of those guys to be traded anytime soon though.
Whoops, I didn't realize that. I guess I should have looked a little harder before posting, as this one slipped through the cracks on me. My apologies Discostu; the last thing we need on a board about to get as busy as this one is to start redundant threads.

But just so this isn't completely useless, does anyone know how the Hossa thing went down? I assumed that he would have been notified during the contract negotiations that he would be traded. Is there any truth to the "finding out at the contract signing celebration dinner" rumor that was floated a few posts up? Anything that can be backed up with a link?

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06-30-2006, 08:34 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SickMonkey
But just so this isn't completely useless, does anyone know how the Hossa thing went down? I assumed that he would have been notified during the contract negotiations that he would be traded. Is there any truth to the "finding out at the contract signing celebration dinner" rumor that was floated a few posts up? Anything that can be backed up with a link?
He signed that contract thinking he was staying in Ottawa.

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Old
06-30-2006, 08:39 AM
  #15
SickMonkey
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Originally Posted by Steve L
He signed that contract thinking he was staying in Ottawa.
Anything to back that up? It's not that I need to see it in writing to believe you, I just won't believe you unless I see it in writing.

Sorry, there's just too much BS floating around for me to accept everything at face value, and while you may not care if I believe you, I certainly do.

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06-30-2006, 09:26 AM
  #16
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You can search hockey sites if you want, it was in their stories. TBH I cant be arsed because the WC game is due to start soon!

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06-30-2006, 09:47 AM
  #17
discostu
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Originally Posted by SickMonkey
Whoops, I didn't realize that. I guess I should have looked a little harder before posting, as this one slipped through the cracks on me. My apologies Discostu; the last thing we need on a board about to get as busy as this one is to start redundant threads.

But just so this isn't completely useless, does anyone know how the Hossa thing went down? I assumed that he would have been notified during the contract negotiations that he would be traded. Is there any truth to the "finding out at the contract signing celebration dinner" rumor that was floated a few posts up? Anything that can be backed up with a link?
Don't worry about not finding the thread. It was a low volume thread, buried a few pages in. I just linked to it because it had some interesting, relevant discussion.

As for the Hossa deal, I don't know the details of what was going on in Hossa's mind when he made that deal, but, that negotiation took a very "down-to-business" approach. Hossa was a fan favourite, largely because we never had any contract problems with him. Coming off his rookie deal, he signed what should have been a typical deal under the old CBA. He was two years from arbitration, therefore, the only way he should have gotten more than a qualifying raise over the rookie minimum was to give up a year or two of arbitration years. He signed a 4 year deal at around $2.5 M per year. It was a brilliant deal for Ottawa, who needed to keep a player like him around at a cheap price, especially since it was signed under the old ownership, which had a ton of financial problems. The whole time he was under that contract, he never complained once. He never demanded a renegotiation, and Ottawa fans pointed to him quite frequently about how honourable a player he was, as opposed to a player like Yashin, who represented all that is evil in sports, or even Havlat, who negotiated hard every time his contract came up, and held out before.

Now, when Hossa's contract came up, and Ottawa was now in a situation where they are facing cap pressures, once again needed Hossa to be a team player, and sacrifice some money to keep the Ottawa core together. It came as a bit of suprise when he wasn't that willing, based on how good he had been before. We don't know what was said in private negotiations, but, the concept of the "Alfie" cap was floated around, which indicated that he was our top player, and that no one would make more than him. It was quite clear that this was the payroll strategy that Muckler was aiming for. Hossa had no interest in leaving that much money on the table, and things looked to be heading to arbitration, an always messy alternative. A few days prior to arbitration, Ottawa seemed to reverse it's position, and gave Hossa a contract in the range of what he was looking for.

Now, maybe Hossa was completely caught off guard. Maybe he signed the contract without wondering why Muckler seemed to change his position so drastically in such a short period of time. He could have thought he was bluffing the entire time, and Hossa and his agent called him on it. Myself, I don't think he's that naive. He must have known that something was in the works.

That's my take on the issue. Like I said, none of us can really know what was going through his head. I think regardless of whether it was a suprise or not, leaving Ottawa had a bit of an emotional impact on him. Ottawa was the team that drafted him, and where he had a lot of friends.

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Old
06-30-2006, 10:59 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by discostu
Don't worry about not finding the thread. It was a low volume thread, buried a few pages in. I just linked to it because it had some interesting, relevant discussion.

As for the Hossa deal, I don't know the details of what was going on in Hossa's mind when he made that deal, but, that negotiation took a very "down-to-business" approach. Hossa was a fan favourite, largely because we never had any contract problems with him. Coming off his rookie deal, he signed what should have been a typical deal under the old CBA. He was two years from arbitration, therefore, the only way he should have gotten more than a qualifying raise over the rookie minimum was to give up a year or two of arbitration years. He signed a 4 year deal at around $2.5 M per year. It was a brilliant deal for Ottawa, who needed to keep a player like him around at a cheap price, especially since it was signed under the old ownership, which had a ton of financial problems. The whole time he was under that contract, he never complained once. He never demanded a renegotiation, and Ottawa fans pointed to him quite frequently about how honourable a player he was, as opposed to a player like Yashin, who represented all that is evil in sports, or even Havlat, who negotiated hard every time his contract came up, and held out before.

Now, when Hossa's contract came up, and Ottawa was now in a situation where they are facing cap pressures, once again needed Hossa to be a team player, and sacrifice some money to keep the Ottawa core together. It came as a bit of suprise when he wasn't that willing, based on how good he had been before. We don't know what was said in private negotiations, but, the concept of the "Alfie" cap was floated around, which indicated that he was our top player, and that no one would make more than him. It was quite clear that this was the payroll strategy that Muckler was aiming for. Hossa had no interest in leaving that much money on the table, and things looked to be heading to arbitration, an always messy alternative. A few days prior to arbitration, Ottawa seemed to reverse it's position, and gave Hossa a contract in the range of what he was looking for.

Now, maybe Hossa was completely caught off guard. Maybe he signed the contract without wondering why Muckler seemed to change his position so drastically in such a short period of time. He could have thought he was bluffing the entire time, and Hossa and his agent called him on it. Myself, I don't think he's that naive. He must have known that something was in the works.

That's my take on the issue. Like I said, none of us can really know what was going through his head. I think regardless of whether it was a suprise or not, leaving Ottawa had a bit of an emotional impact on him. Ottawa was the team that drafted him, and where he had a lot of friends.

Wow, thanks very much for the indepth info stu. Great synopsis of the situation. I actually live in Ottawa (though technically not at the moment) but I guess I don't know all that much about the Sens. I am an Alberta boy at heart still.

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Old
06-30-2006, 11:22 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by discostu
Hossa was a fan favourite, largely because we never had any contract problems with him. Coming off his rookie deal, he signed what should have been a typical deal under the old CBA. He was two years from arbitration, therefore, the only way he should have gotten more than a qualifying raise over the rookie minimum was to give up a year or two of arbitration years. He signed a 4 year deal at around $2.5 M per year. It was a brilliant deal for Ottawa, who needed to keep a player like him around at a cheap price, especially since it was signed under the old ownership, which had a ton of financial problems. The whole time he was under that contract, he never complained once. He never demanded a renegotiation, and Ottawa fans pointed to him quite frequently about how honourable a player he was, as opposed to a player like Yashin, who represented all that is evil in sports, or even Havlat, who negotiated hard every time his contract came up, and held out before.
These may seem like little quibbly points, and I'm sorry for that, but you know I get tired of Havlat always wearing the black hat in Ottawa...

In 2001, Hossa missed most of training camp before he signed that 4 year, $9.2M contract. As I recall, team management flew out to Slovakia to coax him into signing it. He didn't complain at all while playing under that contract, but everybody knew he was being "underpaid," particularly by the end of it.

Havlat has only had contract problems one time, and he signed four days into the season. Alfredsson has also had contract problems with the Senators (mind you, it was back in 1997), and he didn't sign until 12 days into the season.

I think Havlat learned a lot about dealing with Ottawa in regards to contracts from watching what happened with Hossa over the years.

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Old
06-30-2006, 12:09 PM
  #20
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In the NBA the sign and trade works because the team that the player previously belonged to can offer the player a larger contract than any other team. This is not the way the NHL CBA is structured, so for the NHL this would be a good way to blacklist a GM only, as far as signing and trading UFAs but for RFA it would be similar and does happen.

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