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Pathetic Penguins

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Old
11-08-2003, 08:50 PM
  #26
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
I may be alone in this sentiment, but some of the blame has to be handed to the GM as well. Wheres the defense??? Where are the quality players??? They are non-existent.
Craig Patrick has, in the past, been a very shrewd general manager. The more Mario gets involve, the worst it gets. He desrves the blame fully, not CP. The guy is destroying this franchise piece by piece, as I thought he would.

It will remain this way at least as long as Mario wears two hats (player/owner). Once he retires, hopefully he'll get some sense kicked into him but I doubt it.

Him and Gretz share the two same traits: Greatness on ice and always meddling in business they have no idea how to run off-ice.

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Old
11-08-2003, 09:13 PM
  #27
tom_servo
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How is he wrecking a franchise that was in ruins when he bought it?

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Old
11-08-2003, 09:51 PM
  #28
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IMO, this post is stupid, and should be closed. But, since it isn't I'm goin to add my two cents.
First off, any fan that goes out of their way, such as Ziggy, to start a thread simply bashing a team should take a couple of seconds and look where they are coming from. If Pittsburgh could afford to have a payroll within the top 25% of the league, they would very likely be able to ice a team worthy of that payroll. They have had the talent in the past, and they have enough young guys ready to step it up like Malone, Koltsov, and Orpik. (notice thats not counting guys they've acquired through losing/being broke)
Now, I know that many teams in the past have gone through a rebuilding phase, but the Penguins seems to be a unique case. Never in the last decade at least, has the return on top end talent been as low as it is right now. Blame it on the CBA, blame it on the Rag$, either way no one else is seeing very good return on expensive players. Next, factor in that the Penguins can't afford to get top end talent in return for their own. Nor, is any team going to give away a budding superstar for a guy asking for $6 mil/season...especially with the CBA looming. It just doesnt' make sense!
Combine this with the fact that the pre-rebuilding Penguins were a team that relied heavily on top end talent to carry their franchise, and you have a huge problem. Where are they supposed to turn when they are bankrupt and not getting any return on the guys that once carried them?
Now, I understand that there are a lot of other teams out there with salaries in the range of the Penguins, but most of these teams have been in the lower end of the market for some time and have had time to build a competitive team to fit their budget. This is not something that is easily accomplished as some people seem to think!
The Penguins are not going to win a whole lot of games this year....get used to it! Us fans know this, and accept it. However, it does get very annoying to see other posters bash the penguins on a regular basis.

thanks

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Old
11-08-2003, 10:10 PM
  #29
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I also find this to get very annoying.....as bad a game it was, it was just that - A game....I remember awhile back I believe the Jackets let in 11 in a game....blowouts will happen, especially to weaker teams, which the Penguins are amongst, but this blatant pens bashing is uncalled for.....I have never seen a poster use 'pathetic' to describe a team so much in one thread...the Pens were absolutley crushed tonight, but there have been very solid clubs such as Detroit and Boston that took them lightly and lost (the latter team being bested by essentially the same Lemieux-less squad fielded tonight)....it was obviously an embarassing game and I am hoping their will be some shakeups in the immediate future....

The minute I saw the boxscore I instantly knew that there would be a thread exactly like this on the NHL talk board.....and I was right....the fact that some people have nothing better to discuss....yes the Penguins are a poor team (both in talent and in the cash, but they are NOT an AHL team)....they are also not the best managed of teams, but it is tough for teams in the Pens scenario....rebuilding is always tough and the market in the NHL has been awful....and the fact that the Pens have had to do what they have to try and survive and keep the team in Pittsburgh is very sad.....but Pens fans do not need your sympathy, your pity or your opinion on the situation....

I also don't know how Mario is ruining a team that would likely not even exist if he hadn't stepped in, and as tom servo mentioned, was not in the best of shape to begin with.....the defense to Caron tonight is what the town has been to Mario with the new arena....they have left him out to dry....I am at a loss as to how they do not have a new arena....it would an immense help if this could finally be put into the next step, but it doesn't seem likely......don't tell me it is because they do not want to build a new arena for a ****** team either because just a few seasons back, the Pens nearly made it to the Stanley Cup finals....they have needed an arena for quite some time....

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Old
11-08-2003, 10:18 PM
  #30
Ziggy Stardust
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal(M)eth
The Sabres were taken over by the NHL on the interm, and now have a new owner with deep pockets.

The Sens also are under new ownership with deep pockets.

http://msnbc.com/news/975060.asp

You seem to speak without thinking, so let me school you:

The Pens don't have the luxury of a deep pocket owner, willing to lose money...which all but a miniority of NHL franchise owners do. Only 5% of NHL franchises run in the black...but you seem oblivious to that.

Once again, the NHL is a laughingstock as I said. With TV revenue @ 5 million per team, per year...that is laughable. Can you even comprehend how pathetic the NHL TV contract is?

As a reference, each NFL team averages 72.5 million.

Many people argue you can't compare the NHL to the NFL..which is false. The NHL is run poorly...the NFL is not. Period.

Bettman missed the boat when NBC lost their NFL contract.

The leagues unwillingness to open up the game and entertain Joe avg. like the NFL will keep this sport as a laughingstock..until they wake up.

ESPN can't sell their advertising inventory (slots) at full price for NHL games...these slots must be sold, or the network loses money. So they sell them on a discount rate...a networks worst nightmare.

ESPN was awarded the NBA contract, and are able to sell out their advertising inventory at full price for these games. Therefore they wanted to broadcast more NBA games..and wanted to eliminate NHL games..since they were losing money.

Bettman had to beg George Bodenheimer to play NHL games on his network.

I am sure even you can understand how Bettman would lose all leverage at the bargaining table with his inferor product no one really wants.

Hence you have a league that lost over $300 million across the board.

That is bad business...no matter how you want to twist the books.

It is funny how you cry about being attacked after you just attacked the Pens...I believe that makes you a hypocrite.

Pens fans don't want your sympathy...trust me

So when did this debate turn to the Penguins financial woes?
But since you are taking all this personally, I'll go ahead and bite.
You talk about the NHL being a poor run league. That isn't the only problem, it's the owners who caused the problem. Anyway, I am focusing on the sad state of the Penguins franchise.

You talk about TV revenues, how about the local revenue. Why aren't the people of Pittsburgh supporting the team? Care to explain that to me? You have completely changed the topic of discussion. I know how bad the league's economy is, I did a 15-page paper on it, and you cry and whine as if it is only the Penguins who are losing money.

No **** they have a low payroll so that they can survive, I've made that clear. But even with that in mind, how is it that they can't remain to ice a team that could atleast compete in the league? They have become a joke. I clearly mentioned low budget, low revenue teams with low payrolls who can atleast ice a respectable team that can win a game against any team any given night.

Don't preach to me about the economics. Growing up a Kings fan, I know what it's like to see a team go through bankruptcy, as we had a crook as an owner, and then two frauds took over and this team was up in limbo for a few seasons, yet they still managed to float on water and two seasons under new ownership were a playoff team.

You seem to get a little too emotional trying to protect this sorry excuse of an organization. Face the facts and accept them.
Maybe then you can explain to me why the Pens are in the shape they are in.

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Old
11-08-2003, 10:58 PM
  #31
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I'll say it again, the Penguins have always been one of my favorite and my girlfriend's favorite teams. We love to watch them play, and always route for them. However, this year is mockery of what they once were. Their defense, no matter how hard they work their butts off, just are not able to get it done. I think adding a cheap quality defensemen * I mentioned Therin as an example* is a must. I understand rebuilding, but the scoring chances the Pens have been giving up are crazy....Why not grab a cheap d-man for a prospect? Again, why not? At some point, the purse strings have to be opened....or the picks/prospects have to become expendable.

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Old
11-08-2003, 11:08 PM
  #32
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_servo
How is he wrecking a franchise that was in ruins when he bought it?
First, it's in ruin partly because they overpaid his grossly media-unfriendly ass to begin with.

I find that players like him and Gretzky, who were among the first to wreck this league financially, are highly hypocritical now that they sit at the other side of the table.

They deserve a punch in the face by other owners and little more.

Also, do not buy all the crap about him being the savior. While it's true this isn't totally motivated by his desire to get back his cash (by ironically whining for a more fiscally responsible NHL when he himself is owed the money because of that ********), it plays a big part in that.

Crag Patrick may have lost a bit of his magical touch but I refuse to belive it is a coincidence that this team has constantly done stupid moves the more Mario got involved.

You can see this is Mario's team by the way they constantly ignore their pathetic defense. I would be disgusted if I was a season-ticket owner. This is operated like a weak fantasy franchise at best.

The cost-cutting moves are going to *cost* them money eventually. This is not even savvy budgeting. They are devaluating the franchise and will put even less people in the seats. It's terribly shortsighted. Trades like the Kovalev one cannot be explained, except by stupidly poor management. Check out the other franchises and you'll see they have dealt with budget decisions for years. It was a botched job.

I also love how Mario is pulling a Gretzky and bringing his personnal friends. The hiring of Ed Olczyk is a glaring example of that. I have absolutely no doubt that Olczyk's tears when he was hired were genuine; I have not seen such a ****ing unqualified moron be put at the helm of a team since Mario Tremblay in Montreal. He's probably thanking his lucky star he's been sucking up to Mario when he was analyst on TV.

It is currently the worst-managed franchise. It's been for a while and it will be as long as Mario is in charge (or at least until he retires and can properly separate his own player's agenda from an owner's agenda).

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Old
11-08-2003, 11:09 PM
  #33
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I don't think any one player can turn our blueline around. I think our defensemen are solid enough right now when they keep things simple and play physical, physical, physical. When Martin St. Louis skates in 1-on-3 and all 3 defenders start backing up, that's a problem. When Cory Stillman gets 2-3 wacks in front of the net, that's also a problem. We've got massive, physical blueliners like Focht, Berehowsky, Melichar, etc. Even if these guys stink it up in all other facets of the game, the least they should be doing is putting guys on their wallets.

It goes back to the Florida game, too. Hagman, or whoever, skated from his own zone all the way into the Penguins high slot with little obstruction. Not even so much as a stick was layed on him. We got all these guys that are supposed to take the body and some of them rarely do.

I also think it's partly because our forwards aren't supporting our defensemen enough. Defensemen are pinching in and forwards are sporadic at best at covering the position.

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Old
11-08-2003, 11:13 PM
  #34
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I believe that you are missing his point. Few would find that surprising.

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Old
11-08-2003, 11:31 PM
  #35
Ziggy Stardust
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal(M)eth
The state of the league is what caused the Pens to lose money and sell off their talent...to say I changed the topic is ridiculous. How can you not make the correlation?
So, explain to me why the Senators didn't have to do the same thing when they declared bankruptcy. You said they have a very rich owner... that came after bankruptcy, so care to lecture me on the reasons why Alfredsson and company weren't given away for scraps?


Quote:
Penguins local contract with Foxsports is one of their most lucrative contracts...they finished last season in the top 10% of all NHL markets with close to 600,000 viewers per game...

Whining? I am bringing up facts, which you seem to ignore.
Where are your sources on these numbers? Your so called "FACTS" are irrelevant without any citation of sources.


Quote:
You mean like beating teams such as Detroit and the Bruins..after being down 2-0? One of those games without Mario for 2 periods...
And losing 9-0 today and giving up 40+ shots a night. I find it funny how you attempt to defend what Craig Patrick and company have done to your Pens. Finances aside, they made poor hockey decisions. Sure, we all know those decisions were influenced due to those financial reasons, but you know they could have added better (and still affordable) talent to this roster.
Rebuilding, restocking, retooling, that is all fine. The way they went through doing this is what really gets to me. Where are all the assets acquired in the Jagr trade?
Hey, where is that gem who was acquired for Jan Hrdina?
Oh and what is left of the Kovalev trade? Rico Fata (good talent), who is the only player out of the four they acquired who is with the Pens.

We have seen a lot of teams on the verge of bankruptcy whose future in their respective cities were up in the air. Happened with the Islanders, Flames, Oilers, etc.
I keep bringing this up, but alas, you must act childishly with your meek retorts and avoid the issue. I applaud your attempt to make yourself look good at avoiding those facts.


Quote:
I will continue to preach to you about economics because you don't seem to grasp the concept very well...

I am aware of Mcnall and what he did to your team...the circumstances were vastly different from the Penguins. If you want to think they are similar, then live in delusion.
Sure they were different situations, the Kings were in much worse shape. Attendance was down, they had the oldest team in the league, there was virtually ZERO talent in the farm. Our farm club, the Phoenix Roadrunners, ceased operations.

After the team declared bankruptcy, Coen & Sudikoff bought the franchise, with money they did not have. There were talks and threats of the franchise being moved to another city, as they were losing tons of money, and just like the Penguins today, were having a difficult time in getting the new arena they wanted.

No new owner would be interested, until Phil Anschutz came in and with most of his own money decided to finance the STAPLES Center with some support from the city, which was agreed to be paid back.

I have to repeat myself again since you seem to lack simple reading comprehension, the league's economy is in poor shape, that affects every team in the league, but since the Penguins local revenue is sooo lucrative as you say it is, how are they losing all this money?

Do I think they will remain to be this bad for the next decade? Of course not, but I also don't think they will still be in Pittsburgh for much longer. Why can't they get the new arena they want? I haven't been given a good reason why, but my guess is because they know there is no way they will pack a new arena with the Wilkes-Barre Scranton Penguins featuring Mario Lemieux, Martin Straka and Marc-Andre Fleury.


Quote:
If you consider laying out facts emotional...lol
Prove me wrong and display the facts with cited sources rather than your anger filled ramblings of a frustrated Penguins fan.

Quote:
You are the emotional one running to post about the Penguins losing...yet no posts from you in the majority of games where they played with heart and desire.

You need to find better things to do with your time than make yourself look stupid...
As I said earlier, play with all the heart and desire you have, but talent will win you hockey games, and talent is something the Penguins lack.
Of course they have talented players on the roster, they are just surrounded with many skaters who don't belong in the NHL... they're just being disguised as one.

My closing comments... the Penguins, along with the Rangers, are examples of poorly run and mismanaged organizations who are prime examples of the leagues shaky economy.

But captain obvious here is afraid to swallow his pride and accept the truth. So be it, we disagree, and ergo, I'm stupid.
Stupid for thinking the Penguins are not this great run team whose only excuse for having this poor quality of talent is because of finances, and they are the only team being harmed by it.

Be as it may, you still haven't explained to me how the Penguins are in the position they have gotten themselves into in the first place.

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Old
11-08-2003, 11:40 PM
  #36
tom_servo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Also, do not buy all the crap about him being the savior. While it's true this isn't totally motivated by his desire to get back his cash (by ironically whining for a more fiscally responsible NHL when he himself is owed the money because of that ********), it plays a big part in that.

Crag Patrick may have lost a bit of his magical touch but I refuse to belive it is a coincidence that this team has constantly done stupid moves the more Mario got involved.
Look, it has nothing to do with Mario's mystique as much it has to do with dollars and cents. The team was bankrupt. Any idiot with a calculator knew that anything short of a sellout seasons plus a three-round playoffs would result in the selling of assets. Mario's only deficiency in this area is that he isn't a billionaire. But then, the other billionaire that wanted the team was Paul Allen in Seattle. Mario's clout helped secure him the franchise. That counts for everything, really.

No, management wasn't mistake-free when selling those players. But thhose decisions have yet to show their impact.

Quote:
You can see this is Mario's team by the way they constantly ignore their pathetic defense. I would be disgusted if I was a season-ticket owner. This is operated like a weak fantasy franchise at best.
I don't understand. They're not ignoring anything; they simply have the worst defense, with probably the worst offense. There were hardly any NHL-caliber defensemen on the roster when they were a good team. Needless to say, that carried over. But they're certainly not sacrificing anything for offense; I mean, look at the roster.

Quote:
The cost-cutting moves are going to *cost* them money eventually. This is not even savvy budgeting. They are devaluating the franchise and will put even less people in the seats. It's terribly shortsighted. Trades like the Kovalev one cannot be explained, except by stupidly poor management. Check out the other franchises and you'll see they have dealt with budget decisions for years. It was a botched job.
Again, how many of these teams were bankrupt? Teams in debt don't have any room to negotiate.

Quote:
I also love how Mario is pulling a Gretzky and bringing his personnal friends. The hiring of Ed Olczyk is a glaring example of that. I have absolutely no doubt that Olczyk's tears when he was hired were genuine; I have not seen such a ****ing unqualified moron be put at the helm of a team since Mario Tremblay in Montreal. He's probably thanking his lucky star he's been sucking up to Mario when he was analyst on TV.

It is currently the worst-managed franchise. It's been for a while and it will be as long as Mario is in charge (or at least until he retires and can properly separate his own player's agenda from an owner's agenda).
Yes, Mario's favorable treatment to his cronies gets tiring.

But, as for it being the worst-managed franchise, that's not a fair label to bestow upon the current ownership group. They're digging the team out of a deep hole. It's going to take a long time. Everyone knew that going in.

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Old
11-08-2003, 11:51 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal(M)eth
I am sure you would of done a better job if the city lied to you and promised you a new arena..which you needed to support your team..then went back on their word.
Your quote is pretty much or supposedly the exact same thing that happened to Art Modell before he left Cleveland.

I recently did read some commentary on the financial situation of Allegheny Co., PA.....and it's actually worse than Erie Co., NY.....which I personally couldn't believe.

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Old
11-09-2003, 12:30 AM
  #38
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal(M)eth
You are contradicting yourself...

First the owners gave out these big contracts to Mario and Gretz, but the owners should punch them in the face?
If you look at it this way, I can understand. I'm looking at it from the point of view that those two guys are the ones who are contradicting themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal(M)eth
So if you were in either of their shoes...and you were the best player at your position in the world..you would of turned down the money? I doubt that...highly..
I cannot say what I would have done. I value a good lifestyle and have tons of projects... I would probably have taken a good contract!

However, I can *garantee* you I would never, ever have come back as owner and say "salaries make no sense and now there must be an end to that madness, blah blah blah". It makes me want to puke. Those actions would put me to shame.

Also, a quick note: I agree in spirit when you say "turning down that money", but I do not think this is the correct way to put it. Gutless puke-agents and their prima-donnas work VERY hard to suck as much blood from the owners as possible.

Is it business? Probably, although that's not how *I* do business. Is anybody holding a gun to owners' heads? No.

Are players "handed" money. Not at all. "Turning down money" to me means refusing an easy load of cash someone offers. That's not what happens there. Those are petty, ruthless negociations. Mario was not "offered money that he could turn down". He worked actively with a leeching, gutless agent to hurt the Penguins as much as possible.

Like most (but not all) players do.

There are example of players who do not maximize their value at the negociation tables. They negociate a fair deal and can live with good conscience. They have more than enough money to secure their future and the future of their families for *generations* regardless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal(M)eth
No one forced these owners to give out these huge contracts...whatever happened to financial constraint?
It doesn't exist because the players will not accept a viable, *honest* collective bargain agreement. Regardless, once again I have to agree with you in principle because it's the owners' fault to have signed on the dotted line that CBA. They showed they didn't have the balls to go through, I have little sympathy for them.

I think it's a disaster where the primary victims are good hockey fans like you and me. This sport has changed tremendously the last two decades. On-ice, I still enjoy it but I don't have heroes anymore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal(M)eth
CP lost his touch long before Mario bought the team...his draft record from '93 on was a disaster...he traded Zubby..Naslund etc. for next to nothing...
I believe nobody in their right mind could have expected what happened to Naslund. He is a very late bloomer. You're a Pens fan, so you know more about the trade history than I do. My distinct impression is that it has become worse and worse the more Mario got involved.

Is there a site listing all the transactions in Penguin history? I'd like to see to be sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal(M)eth
The Kovy trade was bad? Yet how many teams are trying to unload their superstars before the CBA expires now?
Kovalev's salary was extremely good bang for the buck. You find a solution, another trade, other investors... *anything* but that trade. It's one of the worst in NHL history and an insult to fans.

The players you see shopped around, they have ludicrous salaries. Jagr $11M. It's horrible. But how much was Kovalev earning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal(M)eth
Mario has investors to worry about...they expect to turn a profit..they are businessmen..they have this wacked notion their investment should bring a return.

This is why they are keeping the payroll low..to turn a profit...survive until the new cba..and to keep their investors happy.
I understand that. I do think however that Mario is a nuisance in this instance because of his involvement as a player. I'm not sure he is cut to be an owner and I am positive he cannot be a good one while he is playing. He is criticizing coaches (his own!), players (including his own), peers (NHLPA members), officials... He is keeping the Pens in that climate of instability, IMO.

Jagr curiously lost his edge at the same time Mario came back, for instance. Do I think Jagr is a poor victim? Certainly not. But it doesn't seem to be a coincidence. Mario ran him out of town and before doing so, lowered his value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal(M)eth
CP was resp. for hiring Olczyk, not Mario. Mario had to give his approval, but he in no way decided on Olczyk. That was CP decision.
Craig Patrick is Mario's puppet. He alluded to it himself in an interview to TSN after the Kovalev trade. He's extremely uncomfortable. Mario is running the show in Pittsburgh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal(M)eth
I would consider the mess in Chicago would make the Hawks the leader for the worst run franchise in the NHL..the Pens have taken their hits and are in the process of rebuilding now.
I like that pick. I almost agree with you! Chicago is a very good candidate for worst franchise as well! I would say the Pens beat them right now based on a history of bad decisions in the last few years.

Note also that Chicago is also rebuilding and have just as good of a chance at this point of becoming a solid franchise in the future as the Pens, IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal(M)eth
Your grudge agt. Mario makes you skewer your facts...you usually make intelligent posts..ashame.
Why would I have a grudge against Mario? I have none. I am criticizing his actions severely because IMO, they are reprehensible and damaging a franchise.

I have no grudge against him anymore than I have a grudge against Mike Smith, or Craig Button. There are people I think are doing their job and people I think aren't. There isn't always a bias, you know.

I'm sorry you didn't find what I had to say "intelligent". We can't always agree with each others, though! It doesn't *always* mean one of us is dumb :p

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Old
11-09-2003, 12:39 AM
  #39
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_servo
I don't understand. They're not ignoring anything; they simply have the worst defense, with probably the worst offense. There were hardly any NHL-caliber defensemen on the roster when they were a good team. Needless to say, that carried over. But they're certainly not sacrificing anything for offense; I mean, look at the roster.
They are suffering horrible, humiliating losses because of that. You need a few good D-men. Many of them are available at reasonable price-tag every season. Instead of bringing in friends like Bergevin, they should think about a good defense. It's more important than a Martin Straka for instance.

Mario simply cannot stand sound defensive play. He refuses to commit fully to a strong buidling base, it seems. They've tried defensive strategies since his comeback and then they scratch those ideas a couple of weeks later.

There is a lack of plan, of vision. A glaring lack of identifying what is wrong with this team because all Mario seems to care about is having good linemates.

But you need defensemen sometimes.

I cannot beliee Craig Patrick became such a foolish individual. It smells like Mario Lemieux all the way to me. It is very much a franchise to his image.

A couple of decades ago, it could have worked. But right now you need disciplines, unified hockey teams of 20 players committing to a strong philosophy.

And that's not something any player who also happens to be owner can see without biases.

Any (in fact all) good general managers in this league take decisions for the good of their teams that royally *piss off* players. Why? Because they can see the big picture.

And right now, Craig Patrick cannot do that because one player he can piss off happens to be his boss. It's a very, very awkward situation.

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11-09-2003, 12:43 AM
  #40
Vlad The Impaler
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One last thing: I don't really appreciate the title of this thread. This is not an attack on the Penguins.

I wish nothing but good luck to *all* hockey fans, regardless of location or allegiance.

Take my criticisms for what they are: criticisms of hockey decisions. I do think it's ok to agree or disagree, I just hope nobody is going to take it personnal. It's not.

After four pages of this stuff, I could see how some Pens fans could be tired of it. But hey, I just happen to have a fairly low opinion of the management of that team right now.

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Old
11-09-2003, 02:43 AM
  #41
Evilo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
One last thing: I don't really appreciate the title of this thread. This is not an attack on the Penguins.

I wish nothing but good luck to *all* hockey fans, regardless of location or allegiance.

Take my criticisms for what they are: criticisms of hockey decisions. I do think it's ok to agree or disagree, I just hope nobody is going to take it personnal. It's not.

After four pages of this stuff, I could see how some Pens fans could be tired of it. But hey, I just happen to have a fairly low opinion of the management of that team right now.
Vlad, I don't understand how you can't see the simply logic.
No Mario, no Pittsburgh franchise.
No franchise after 1984, no franchise after tha bankrupt, etc...
His motives are COMPLETELY irrelevant.
Be it for money, for glory, for anything he might want, the hard truth is HE KEPT THE FRANCHISE IN PITTSBURGH.
So far yes, but still it's here for at least the new CBA.
I don't care about Gretzky and his decisions.
He wants to build the Oilers all over again, but that's not possible.
Mario is not trying to build ANYTHING. He's in survival mode. He just wants to reach the new CBA, and the only way is to use young, cheap players.
I have NO problem with that.
I have no problem with ANY way he might use to save the franchise.

As for Ziggy, you lost mucho respect tonight.
Comparing the Pens with Ottawa (national sport) and Buffalo (deep pocket owner) is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.
Your thread is considered an attack, and rightly so.
I can't even believe how you're an intelligent guy, we both know it, yet you come up with this PATHETIC of a thread, and defending it by PATHETIC arguments.
I don't want to come to insults with you, because you're a friend of mine.
But please Harry, think twice before posting such stupid, insensible posts and threads.
I don't remember you posting about the Pens when they beat Detroit or Boston.

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Old
11-09-2003, 02:59 AM
  #42
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Vlad, I don't understand how you can't see the simply logic.
No Mario, no Pittsburgh franchise.
No franchise after 1984, no franchise after tha bankrupt, etc...
His motives are COMPLETELY irrelevant.
Be it for money, for glory, for anything he might want, the hard truth is HE KEPT THE FRANCHISE IN PITTSBURGH.
So far yes, but still it's here for at least the new CBA.
I don't care about Gretzky and his decisions.
He wants to build the Oilers all over again, but that's not possible.
Mario is not trying to build ANYTHING. He's in survival mode. He just wants to reach the new CBA, and the only way is to use young, cheap players.
I have NO problem with that.
I have no problem with ANY way he might use to save the franchise.
The fact he may be able to save the franchise is, we all agree, a good thing!

However, Mario is simply *way* too involved in personnel decisions. As a player, this colors his views greatly.

Mario has money, great talent... it's all good! I think he could do a great job. How?

1-By playing great hockey

2-By dissociating himself from his status of owner as much as possible for as long as he is a player.

3-By learning to be a *good* owner. This may seem easy, but actually, it's not.

Right now, he doesn't do that. He's playing GM. As a result, Craig patrick is not able to do his job well.

Mario is very confusing at times, and I suspect the locker room atmosphere must be grim and confused. They can't establish chemistry when one of the guy constantly shoots his mouth about management matters.

Again, I have too much respect to believe Craig Patrick went from being one of the pretty good general managers in the NHL to one of the crappiest.

Here is one of many examples of things you just should never do when you are a PLAYER

Stuff like this makes a young but storied franchise look clownish. I believe Mario's ego gets the better out of him, unfortunately. He needs to stop playing GM, forget as much as possible that he is the owner, reply "no comment" to ANY questions by the media concerning his role as owner during the season and just play hockey.

Once he hangs his skates, he can resume his role as owner, hopefully learning how you build a winning team in this league and learning to act like an owner, not a GM. He'll find out management is quite different from a player's perspective of the game.

Right now, he confuses the two (heck, three) roles too often.

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11-09-2003, 03:59 AM
  #43
Evilo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
The fact he may be able to save the franchise is, we all agree, a good thing!

However, Mario is simply *way* too involved in personnel decisions. As a player, this colors his views greatly.

Mario has money, great talent... it's all good! I think he could do a great job. How?

1-By playing great hockey

2-By dissociating himself from his status of owner as much as possible for as long as he is a player.

3-By learning to be a *good* owner. This may seem easy, but actually, it's not.

Right now, he doesn't do that. He's playing GM. As a result, Craig patrick is not able to do his job well.

Mario is very confusing at times, and I suspect the locker room atmosphere must be grim and confused. They can't establish chemistry when one of the guy constantly shoots his mouth about management matters.

Again, I have too much respect to believe Craig Patrick went from being one of the pretty good general managers in the NHL to one of the crappiest.

Here is one of many examples of things you just should never do when you are a PLAYER

Stuff like this makes a young but storied franchise look clownish. I believe Mario's ego gets the better out of him, unfortunately. He needs to stop playing GM, forget as much as possible that he is the owner, reply "no comment" to ANY questions by the media concerning his role as owner during the season and just play hockey.

Once he hangs his skates, he can resume his role as owner, hopefully learning how you build a winning team in this league and learning to act like an owner, not a GM. He'll find out management is quite different from a player's perspective of the game.

Right now, he confuses the two (heck, three) roles too often.
I understand your point.
And I somewhat agree with it.
But please don't say he ruins this franchise.
This franchise WAS ruined.
Now it has a glimpes of hope for the post-CBA period.

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Old
11-09-2003, 05:42 AM
  #44
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[QUOTE=mariano]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal(M)eth
The teams you mentioned didn't just come out of bankruptcy as the Pens did. QUOTE]

That excuse doesn't hold. Both Buffalo and Ottawa were in bankupcy. They again.
It's not an excuse.
Both of these teams have deep pocket owners.
The Pens don't.
LA lost more than 20 M$ a couple of years ago.
Think any cash-strapped owner could afford that?

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Old
11-09-2003, 06:02 AM
  #45
Buffaloed
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I think everyone is underestimating the cold, calculating logic of the Pens brain trust. They got their man in Fleury and now they have their designs set on Ovechkin. They may even be in the running for Crosby. Landing 2 affordable franchise players is their best chance at remaining a viable NHL franchise. The Pens will be a post-CBA powerhouse with this strategy.

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11-09-2003, 07:39 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffaloed
I think everyone is underestimating the cold, calculating logic of the Pens brain trust. They got their man in Fleury and now they have their designs set on Ovechkin. They may even be in the running for Crosby. Landing 2 affordable franchise players is their best chance at remaining a viable NHL franchise. The Pens will be a post-CBA powerhouse with this strategy.
I don't think they gamble on the lottery, but even so, they DO need a new arena to survive.

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11-09-2003, 08:06 AM
  #47
Darth Vitale
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I think the original question of "will they be able to fill the new arena" is jumping the gun big-time. The city of Pittsburgh has so far proved itself to be an unwilling partner in getting a new arena funded and built in the first place. The team is having to depend on 3rd party contributions like the fellow who is willing to put down $60M in exchange for the right to have a new racetrack / gambling facility built in PA.

Either they get the funding commitment they need from the city in the next six months or so, or they won't be in Pittsburgh after the CBA is ironed out. That's almost guanteed. The fact that they built stadiums for the Pirates and Steelers without much fuss is testament to the fact that Pittsburgh is no longer the hockey town it once was.

The fans are great, but... that's not enough for a viable franchise. The city itself has to be behind the team and right now they are not. Portland Penguins may not be as far-fetched as people think. Right now I'd say it's about a 50/50 proposition. Maybe 60/40.

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11-09-2003, 08:42 AM
  #48
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I think the Penguins are an AHL caliber team.

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11-09-2003, 08:53 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Blue
I think the Penguins are an AHL caliber team.
I think you're an AHL caliber poster.

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11-09-2003, 08:59 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariano
Every team has good prospects that need to develop. So what? Overally, the Pens' prospects are medicore at best. The forwards in the system are all grinders and there isn't a single one that looks like a top 6 forward. As for defense, they only have one highh-level prospect, Whitney, whose plays has been very erratic over the last year. Lupaschuk is a maybe.They have Fleury in goal great. But there isn't much else of note.
First of all, all you ever do is bash the penguins. And second of all, players like Eaves, Beech, Surovy, Murley, Abid, Koltsov, Christensen, Bartschi, Malone, Kraft and Sivek are all capable of being top 6 forwards.
Aren't you a penguins fan? You always post on the Pens board, but you only bash the pens and everything you say is wrong. You better learn more about the pens before you start bashing them. It's true that the Penguins don't have a superstar forward, but with their depth prospect wise I don't think they'll need one, but they have a chance to get one in a top heavy 2004 draft, even if it isn't Ovechkin.

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