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Old
11-09-2003, 09:06 AM
  #51
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Lemieux = NHL
Straka = NHL
Morozov = NHL
Koltzov = NHL
Fata = NHL
Abid = NHL
Tarnstrom = NHL
Matt Bradley = Nhl (Not on the top 2 lines)
Berehowsky = NHL
Orpik = NHL
Roszival = NHL
Fleury = NHL
Caron = NHL
Webb = AHL (good agitator, but too bad hockey player)
Kraft = AHL
Holzinger = AHL (He wasn't that bad a few years ago)
Buchberger = Should be retired¸
Mckenna = AHL
Bergevin = Should be retired
Melichar = Who knows? Always injured
Focht = AHL

They're a really bad NHL team, not an AHL team. The problem is that they have some good young players, but not a solid group of veterans to help 'em. When Mario and Fleury doesn't play ...Ouch !!! 2 french canadian... interresting :p

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Old
11-09-2003, 09:37 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal(M)eth
None of the money used for the new stadiums came from the city...it is a misconception...as I've said at least 2-3 times in this thread.
Sorry if I missed your posts (short on time this morning), but by "come from the city" I mean tax revenues. Taxes specifically put into action (for a temporary period) to help fund the arena. I don't mean that the city digs into its coffers and antes up as it were. Obviously, city money comes from citizens in the end analysis.

There should be a small tax added to all consessions at the other two stadiums, and perhaps a tax added to locally purchased Pens merchandise. In addition, perhaps a $5 donation could be added to everyone's income and/or property tax forms, under the stipulation that they can forgoe it. Sort of like on your federal tax returns, you have the option to donate to campaign funds and such.

There should several tax-related progams like that in Pittsburgh, so that every business and individual can contribute a little bit. In the end it would mean a lot of money. To my knowledge the city has enacted no such programs, even though this debate has been going on for at least four years. My point is, the city is making zero effort to solve the problem. They're just offering excuses AFAICT.

Your point about the 2007 lease agreement is well-made, however, a good legal team probably wouldn't have too much trouble finding a loophole / way around it before then if things got desparate.

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Old
11-09-2003, 09:44 AM
  #53
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[QUOTE=mariano]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal(M)eth
When you play in a league that has no TV revenue, and has to beg the networks here in the States to even put hockey on...teams like the Penguins have to sell off their talented players.

That is why their talent level has dropped significantly.

QUOTE]

You make absolutely no sense. If there were a big TV contract, then ALL teams would get the same share. How would this help the Pens? Everyone would pay more for players. They would still be at the bottom.

The real reasons that the Pens stink, however, are: 1) That they are paying Mario $10 million. They ravaged the roster in order to come up with the money. The current payroll of $30 million ($25 official plus the $5 they pay Lemiiex as "executive") should be enough to put a competitive team on the ice. They cry poor, yey doubled Mario's salary from $5 to $10 million. And please don't give me "Mario deserves it" nonsense. He doesn't anymore and besides no small market can afford to sink that much money into one player, especially one is always injured.

2) That Craig Patrick has has been completely unable to develop talent. He has also likes to hire his friends as coach, whether they are compentent or not: Eddie Johnson, Rick Kehoe, Ivan Hlinka and now Olczyk, although I doubt that it matters who coach's the current bush-league roster.

As a Pens fan, I strongly agree with #1. The team would be far better served by hiring 3 NHL level defenseman at $3-4 million each rather than paying $10 million to an aging superstar who has lost his shooting ability and sits out half of each season with a nagging injury. The argument for Lemieux was that he draws fans in to see him. With the Penguins averaging less than 12,000 in attendance, this is no longer the case.

One thing i get really sick of is hearing other fans say things like "Pittsburgh is a bad hockey market. If my team had Mario Lemieux, the seats would be filled every night". If Mario were back in his prime, this might be the case. But now, with his diminished finishing ability, he no longer can single-handedly dominate the game. His immediate role is as a puck distributer, a la Adam Oates. His success is inexorably tied to the scoring ability of his teammates. When his linemates are Konstantin Koltsov and Alexy Morozov, you don't get much bang for your buck.

While I disagree with some of Vlad's statements, I think he's dead-on about Lemieux's current role being detrimental to the organization. As a Pens fan, I find myself hoping he'll retire. I think he's the best player to every play the game, but that's not what this team needs right now. This team needs servicable NHL defensemen and forwards. Mike Eastwood, Brian Holzinger, Steve McKenna, Kelly Buchberger, Marc Bergevin, Drake Berehowsky, Dick Tarnstrom, and Dan Focht do not meet that description. If we could replace even a subset of those players with a Greg deVries, Brian Marchment, or a Magnus Arvedson, this team would be greatly improved.

Alas, rather than address the pitiful product on the ice, management chooses to simply guilt-trip about not showing up to see Lemieux, while offering consolations in the form of a ridiculous "Penguins house band", a harem of skanky, unattractive females in skimpy outfits known as the "Pittsburgh Spirits", and a ridiculous "X Generation" advertising campaign, with the slogan "This year, the ice *will* BURN." Funny, I see the fan base going up in flames with it.

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Old
11-09-2003, 10:03 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippy
I think the original question of "will they be able to fill the new arena" is jumping the gun big-time. The city of Pittsburgh has so far proved itself to be an unwilling partner in getting a new arena funded and built in the first place. The team is having to depend on 3rd party contributions like the fellow who is willing to put down $60M in exchange for the right to have a new racetrack / gambling facility built in PA.

Either they get the funding commitment they need from the city in the next six months or so, or they won't be in Pittsburgh after the CBA is ironed out. That's almost guanteed. The fact that they built stadiums for the Pirates and Steelers without much fuss is testament to the fact that Pittsburgh is no longer the hockey town it once was.

The fans are great, but... that's not enough for a viable franchise. The city itself has to be behind the team and right now they are not. Portland Penguins may not be as far-fetched as people think. Right now I'd say it's about a 50/50 proposition. Maybe 60/40.
Just FYI, the Penguins could have been in on "Plan B" to get a new arena as well. Baldwin didn't go in on it, and choose money to upgrade Mellon Arena.

Personally, I don't see why Mellon Arena can't support a hockey team. It's old, but it's a servicable venue. The main complaint is the lack of luxury boxes, but with the product that's put on the ice, who's going to shell out the $50,000+ a season to purchase one?

There are a lot of things working against the arena. The idiot locals think that the money for it will be coming from their pockets. This is not the case, as most of the money will be coming from the state and the RAD fund. Unforutnately, the RAD fund also finances things like the Symphony, which is in a pretty bad state right now. The rich folks are opposing the Arena because it will dip into Symphony funds, and they have means of getting their opinion heard. Then we have the Pirates, who have the most beautiful arena in MLB, and have entered rebuilding mode once again without ever having made the playoffs, or even gone above .500. It was thought that the new arena was what it would take to make the Pirates competitive, but that illusion was quickly dispelled after a number of unpopular trades designed to cut salary, most notably the sale of Aramis Ramirez, a power hitter in his early 20's, to the Cubs for a marginal prospects. Unfortunately, the Penguins recent spate of unpopular decisions has resulted in comparisons drawn between the two clubs. That is a very, very bad thing.

Another note on mismanagement. The money that came the Pens way from the Jagr trade was used to buy land adjacent to the spot where they'd hope to build the new arena. They called what they were doing "securing the land", and when the arena was built they'd sell it back "at a reasonable price". Now, interestingly enough, the land is for sale.... mainly because they are paying $1 million a year in taxes & insurance on a vacated property. I think they bought it thinking the arena was a sure thing, then they'd sell the land around it for a killing. It was a bad buisness decision for them to get involved in real estate speculation, and it very well could be the reason that Kovalev is not wearing a Penguins uniform.

There's some very suspicious stuff going on with the franchise right now... particularly the secret raise that was given to Lemieux. Note that the reason the information was leaked is because someone on the board dissented. Here's a link:

http://www.post-gazette.com/penguins...uins1002p1.asp

and

http://www.post-gazette.com/penguins...uins1002p1.asp

and here's a snippet from

http://www.post-gazette.com/penguins...uins1002p1.asp


" Q: Dejan, how does a business that's perennially in the red up and decide that their CEO of four years is long overdue for double the pay? I'm as big a Mario Lemieux fan as anyone, but considering their fight for public money and the added loss of revenue over a possible lockout in 2004, this seems dubious and downright puzzling.

Chris Stalnaker of Adah, Pa.

KOVACEVIC: Puzzling is a good word for it, Chris, mostly because it brings up so many more questions than it does answers.

If the team has not established a new revenue stream and has not found a way to significantly cut costs since last season -- that's no and no -- then who will pay for this? Is the team digging into debt? Again? Ken Sawyer said the fans are not paying for this raise, that it is coming from the investors and from Lemieux himself. But how is that possible unless there has been a fresh infusion of cash into the ownership group? Or is it really debt?

Why withdraw the money now? If the stated optimism of the Penguins that they will get their arena is as genuine as it comes across, then why not concentrate efforts on strengthening the franchise as a whole right now and wait for the really big payday when there is a chance to sell the team to a local buyer with the promise or reality of a new arena? The amount of money Lemieux stands to collect by selling this franchise someday likely is many times more than the $10 million he will earn this season. His product would be a more attractive sell if the franchise is in good fiscal and on-ice shape. Is that the case now? Is the team generating enough interest to sell enough tickets? Is it really making an effort to sign Marc-Andre Fleury?

Why the clandestine approach? On July 31, the day Lemieux made official his return, the general reaction in Pittsburgh was supremely positive. Would that have been diminished by the knowledge that it might have taken a raise to entice him back? Would anyone really have minded? I understand there is a policy of not announcing executive salaries, just as I understand the Penguins are a private company which has that right. But they had to have known that it was likely something like this would leak and that it would look worse in a month or two than at the time. Why not head it off?"


Very strange indeed.


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Old
11-09-2003, 10:07 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippy
Sorry if I missed your posts (short on time this morning), but by "come from the city" I mean tax revenues. Taxes specifically put into action (for a temporary period) to help fund the arena. I don't mean that the city digs into its coffers and antes up as it were. Obviously, city money comes from citizens in the end analysis.

There should be a small tax added to all consessions at the other two stadiums, and perhaps a tax added to locally purchased Pens merchandise. In addition, perhaps a $5 donation could be added to everyone's income and/or property tax forms, under the stipulation that they can forgoe it. Sort of like on your federal tax returns, you have the option to donate to campaign funds and such.

There should several tax-related progams like that in Pittsburgh, so that every business and individual can contribute a little bit. In the end it would mean a lot of money. To my knowledge the city has enacted no such programs, even though this debate has been going on for at least four years. My point is, the city is making zero effort to solve the problem. They're just offering excuses AFAICT.

Your point about the 2007 lease agreement is well-made, however, a good legal team probably wouldn't have too much trouble finding a loophole / way around it before then if things got desparate.
The city of Pittsburgh had many more problems than just the Penguins. The city itself laid off something like 800 employees, including police officers and firemen, just to stay out of bankruptcy. You stated that the city is making zero effort to solve the problem, and I strongly support that statement.

Fortunately, there may be a workaround for this, in the form of state and private funding. The fact remains that they are around $80 million short of their goal, even with the state's help and money from RAD. That's a pretty big gap, and I don't know who will be able to fill it.


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Old
11-09-2003, 10:12 AM
  #56
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Can someone elaborate on this Plan B a bit more in terms of what was specifically offered? My understanding is, that only in the last year or so was a design for [a new arena] even agreed upon -- and presumably that design was to go on the land the organization bought.

If that's so, then what did Plan B really offer earlier on? Was there a separate design proposal the city had already accepted and a separate site, and the Pens didn't like what it offered for some reason? Or was it just pure short-sightedness (i.e. they didn't think they needed a new arena / didn't think it would be hard to get started when the time came -- maybe because of how easy it was for the Pirates and Steelers)?

I know also that Ridge was the governor at the time all this was started, and that he was seemingly in the Pens' corner. My recollection was he was about to ask the state for funding around the time of 9-11. Has his departure been part of the problem we're in now in your opinions?

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11-09-2003, 10:28 AM
  #57
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I applaud your effort for giving me an article stating how the Pens ratings are down, from a year ago. I'd like to see what their ratings are now in 2003.

How about those trades I brought up which you ignored?
The Islanders were forced to trade Ziggy Palffy, and look at all the talent they acquired (and they were all affordable).

I understand the transactions made due to financial reasons, and my point is that they were awful moves that were just made to save them money rather than add talent.

After trading Kovalev, Jagr and Hrdina, they have ONE player from those deals on the Penguins roster that is playing.

I could care less whose respect I have lost (it seems to be only Penguins fans I'm offending), I have proven my point on how mismanaged this franchise is. If they weren't they wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.

Is this an attack on the Penguins? Sure it can be viewed as one, but I'm attacking their management for the way the have assembled this team. The Coyotes were in the same boat trying to get a new arena, they wer saved by Gretzky, and they were forced to trade Tkachuk (and got a great return with Nagy and Handzus), they dealt Khabibulin (and got Johnson and Mara).
They also made other awful hockey decisions (not trading Roenick before his contract was up, trading Handzus for Boucher, Briere for Gratton, the Numminen trade, etc).

You keep saying it's due to the economy they have the roster they have. That is just a lame excuse that I'm not going to accept. There is no reason why they couldn't have a more talented team with the level of players they ended up trading, they easily could have gotten a better return.

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11-09-2003, 10:34 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
I applaud your effort for giving me an article stating how the Pens ratings are down, from a year ago. I'd like to see what their ratings are now in 2003.

How about those trades I brought up which you ignored?
The Islanders were forced to trade Ziggy Palffy, and look at all the talent they acquired (and they were all affordable).

I understand the transactions made due to financial reasons, and my point is that they were awful moves that were just made to save them money rather than add talent.

After trading Kovalev, Jagr and Hrdina, they have ONE player from those deals on the Penguins roster that is playing.

I could care less whose respect I have lost (it seems to be only Penguins fans I'm offending), I have proven my point on how mismanaged this franchise is. If they weren't they wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.

Is this an attack on the Penguins? Sure it can be viewed as one, but I'm attacking their management for the way the have assembled this team. The Coyotes were in the same boat trying to get a new arena, they wer saved by Gretzky, and they were forced to trade Tkachuk (and got a great return with Nagy and Handzus), they dealt Khabibulin (and got Johnson and Mara).
They also made other awful hockey decisions (not trading Roenick before his contract was up, trading Handzus for Boucher, Briere for Gratton, the Numminen trade, etc).

You keep saying it's due to the economy they have the roster they have. That is just a lame excuse that I'm not going to accept. There is no reason why they couldn't have a more talented team with the level of players they ended up trading, they easily could have gotten a better return.
Nah once again Larry, you snatched defeat from the jaws of ... erhhh no nothing...
Want another proof you're only making bad, stupid arguments with any backup?
Here is your sentence :
"After trading Kovalev, Jagr and Hrdina, they have ONE player from those deals on the Penguins roster that is playing."

What the Pens got from the Kovy, Jagr and Hrdina deals :
NHL :
Rico Fata
Marc-Andre Fleury (yep Samuelson was used to get Fleury)
Ramzi Abid
Dan Focht
You might have some trouble counting but that's 4, not 1.
And you can add this :

AHL
Ross Lupaschuk (leads all AHL Dmen in +/- and of course is great offensively)
Michal Sivek (injured right now, but a very good prospect)
Kris Beech (got 2 goals yesterday... plays very good these days and should be back in Pittsburgh soon)
Guillaume Lefebvre (grinder who proved last year he had a good shot at making the NHL as a grinder who can chip in a few goals)

I'd say give Jagr's situation in Washington, Hrdina's shadow playing in Pheonix and Kovy "old-self as a Ranger", the Pens made out pretty good.
Better than most IMO.

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11-09-2003, 10:35 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippy
Can someone elaborate on this Plan B a bit more in terms of what was specifically offered? My understanding is, that only in the last year or so was a design for [a new arena] even agreed upon -- and presumably that design was to go on the land the organization bought.

If that's so, then what did Plan B really offer earlier on? Was there a separate design proposal the city had already accepted and a separate site, and the Pens didn't like what it offered for some reason? Or was it just pure short-sightedness (i.e. they didn't think they needed a new arena / didn't think it would be hard to get started when the time came -- maybe because of how easy it was for the Pirates and Steelers)?

I know also that Ridge was the governor at the time all this was started, and that he was seemingly in the Pens' corner. My recollection was he was about to ask the state for funding around the time of 9-11. Has his departure been part of the problem we're in now in your opinions?
Wow. Lots of questions, far beyond my expertise to answer them all, but with the help of google here's a little background.

Overview of Plan B articles:

http://www.post-gazette.com/planb/


With reference to the Penguins:

http://www.post-gazette.com/regionst...811bplanb5.asp

"City and county officials say it's too late to revise Plan B and build a new ice hockey arena for the Penguins as part of the coming expansion of the David L. Lawrence Convention Center.

...

Plan B is an $809 million proposal to triple the size of the convention center and build a $228 million baseball park and a $233 million football stadium.

Plan B was put together by city and county officials late last year after the Regional Renaissance Initiative, a half-cent increase in a regional sales tax, was defeated in November.

The improvements to the 37-year-old Civic Arena were approved by the RAD board in February 1997.

...

n early 1997, the Auditorium Authority, a city-county agency that owns the Civic Arena, asked the Regional Asset District for $10.5 million in county sales tax revenue to make improvements at the ice rink.

They included installation of new club seats at center ice, two new lounges for club seat patrons and other improvements. The RAD, a city-county agency, administers $64 million a year in sales tax revenues.

"Roger Marino wants a second bite of the apple" but won't get it, Murphy said. "We negotiated with Howard Baldwin in good faith. (The Auditorium Authority) agreed to invest a significant amount of money last year in the Civic Arena at the request of the Penguins.

"They had the discretion on how to spend the money to increase their revenue. They put in club seats. They did a great job, from everything I can see. They signed a commitment for an extension of their lease (until 2007) based on that investment. From Baldwin's view, the Civic Arena works fine as a home for hockey.""

So from I gather, Baldwin cut a deal with the city before Plan B, and then asked to be included on the plan. The city saw this as hypocritical, because he said that the money to improve Mellon Arena would be enough to keep the team competitive. But, according to Lemieux, this just isn't the case.

Here's an article about the new arena and financing, at least about how the Pens envisioned it a year ago:

http://www.post-gazette.com/localnew...renareg2p2.asp

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11-09-2003, 10:35 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffaloed
I think everyone is underestimating the cold, calculating logic of the Pens brain trust. They got their man in Fleury and now they have their designs set on Ovechkin. They may even be in the running for Crosby. Landing 2 affordable franchise players is their best chance at remaining a viable NHL franchise. The Pens will be a post-CBA powerhouse with this strategy.
Well, at least that seems to be a goal.

We all knew that this wasn't going to be a pretty season. However, there is much reason to hope for the future. Many, including Vlad, seem to be saying that this team is so bad because of the defensive corps. I agree, although there are a few NHL calibre defensemen on the roster, the problem is that there is no number one, or even number two, and probably not number three defenseman on the team. However:

Ryan Whitney
Brooks Orpik
Noah Welch
Ross Lupaschuk
Andy Schneider
Josef Melichar
Michal Rozival

They have at least attempted to mend that problem with drafting. They have put themselves in the position to fix the development part of the problem with the hiring of Michal Therrien, who is an outstanding teacher. Add Fleury to that mix, and you have a recipe for a solid defensive team. (Plus, they recently drafted guys like Ryan Stone and other guys who project to be good two way players).

The one lacking thing at the moment is a star forward. In the system, they seem to have a good enough group of supporting forwards, but there's no top blue chip guy. That will almost assuredly be solved in June with Ovechkin, Olesz, Malkin or whomever. They will hold one of the top 5 picks.

So what's the problem? I would have to argue that any moron can see what they are trying to do here. They also have the least amount of money invested in players after the 'CBA Armageddon', or at least they are up there with teams who have the least invested. They are soon to lose more when Straka is traded.

They've done about all they can do, and that's gotten together a group of young players, a good teacher at the AHL level, and relinquished themselves of a lot of hassle post CBA. I credit Patrick and Lemieux for that, even though it means watching some bad games this year, like the game last night.

Whether this team will be in Pittsburgh or not is a seperate issue. One can only hope and pray with how it looks now.

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11-09-2003, 10:43 AM
  #61
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Quote:
From Ziggy:

I have proven my point on how mismanaged this franchise is. If they weren't they wouldn't be in this mess in the first place....
You are essentially correct in that it's not "the economy's fault" and "the league's fault". They certainly are contributing factors, but I doubt any Pens fan would argue that there haven't been bad decisions made by mgmt. There have been and we all know it.

I think the point is, were the Pens' financial situation more common around the league, you'd see other teams making similar mistakes. So it's not just a case of clueless mgmt, which you seem to be implying. In my view, they're batting about .500 on key decisions over the last 3 years. Some have been harsh but realistic, others just plain bad.

The Jagr deal was realistic: we got cash, three very good prospects (who we had no reason to believe would "bust", and frankly it's too early to say any of them have busted), and we axed Jagr's huge salary.

Buying the land without an agreement for an arena was stupid. Mario's raise was stupid (even if technically he "had one coming" for the years when he didn't make much). Those moves were bad business decisions, period.

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11-09-2003, 10:43 AM
  #62
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I have no respect for a franchise that chooses to bottom out to get somone they want in the draft. I'm sorry, but that is my opinion.

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11-09-2003, 10:46 AM
  #63
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One more thing -- a lot of posters have stated that the Penguins are required by terms of their bankruptcy settlement to not operate in the red. I'm not sure if this is actually the case, but let's assume that it is. Why then pay Lemieux $10 million dollars? It'd be much more saavy to defer his compensation, so that, for example, Kovalev could be traded without a $4 million dollar price tag. By lifting that price tag, and trading to the Maple Leafs, for example, the Pens could have received a much better return player-wise, and put out a more competitive team on the ice this year.... leading to more ticket sales. Instead, it seems to me that Lemieux is quietly "selling his stock" in the organization, making his money while he can rather than looking out for the long term interest of the team.

And, please stop saying that the Kovalev trade netted us MA Fleury. It didn't. Finishing second-to-last in the standings netted us Fleury. We moved up because the price obviously wasn't very high in order to move up. Samuelson was throw-in, and could have probably been substituted with another marginal NHL players or lower-tier prospect.

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11-09-2003, 10:49 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
I have no respect for a franchise that chooses to bottom out to get somone they want in the draft. I'm sorry, but that is my opinion.
The thing is how can you be sure of this? Are you saying if they still had maybe Robert Lang and Bob Boughner, that they wouldn't still finish with a shot at Ovechkin?

In my view the personnel moves have been ugly, but pretty much mandatory. They paid for signing guys to huge contracts (thus setting expectations for the next wave) when they they were running out of money. Hence, they're reaping what they sewed four or five years ago. Other teams can afford $4M and $5M contracts; the Pens can't but they went down that path anyway.

Right now, I'd say WASHINGTON is much more deserving of your comment / observation than the Pens. Washingotn has plenty of talent and a nice arena and wealthy fans... and they're dogging it. Completely. To me, they appear to be the only team out there gunning for Oveckin. The Pens at least have made strong efforts in games they had no business competing in (Detroit, Philly, etc). And Phoenix is playing a lot of teams tough.

So, it's all relative but I don't think the 9-0 arse-kicking the Pens got last night means that they're "hunting for the #1 pick". Look to Leonsis for that. Suits his character.

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11-09-2003, 11:00 AM
  #65
Ziggy Stardust
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Looking at the Jagr trade... why is it that none of the talents acquired are with the Penguins? We all know they don't have a strong squad in the NHL, it puzzles me as to why Beech, Sivek or Lupaschuk couldn't crack that team.

The Penguins are touted for having this great depth of talent, and I know the Wilkes Barre Scranton Penguins have been a successful minor league club, but Kraft has been labeled a super talent for years now and he hasn't progressed.

Rico Fata finally has come around, and given the situation the Rangers and Capitals are in, the Pens made the right decision in moving those contracts, but the talent they acquired for them was way below market value.

Why couldn't they pull in Fedor Tjutin into the deal? Or Dominic Moore or Dale Purinton, all those guys would have helped more than a Bouchard or Lintner.
They just took on players who won't be returning like Joel Bouchard so they wouldn't be committed to contracts.
If they weren't going to retain Kovalev, why didn't they trade him when the level of interest for Kovalev was at it's highest point? They hung onto him until they were begging for a team to take on his contract.

Also look at the return the Sharks got for Owen Nolan. Financial situation aside, they wanted to unload his contract and got a great return for him.

I think they've been in the rebuilding stages since they dealt Jagr, and since then, how many of their prospects have panned out?
Marc-Andre Fleury is the future and cornerstone of this franchise, and they better surround and support him with some talent, because I don't want to see them stunt his development with another 2-3 seasons of the type of play they have demonstrated this season.

A lot can happen in that time, but I saw what happened with Jamie Storr in LA, who was the highest drafted goalie at that time, and with the poor talent we had here, he showed glimpses of what he was capable of doing, but he never put it together and his confidence had reached an all time low.

Some of you seem to think I hate the Penguins, when I don't. I'm actually frustrated in seeing a team throwing it all away, it seems as though they called it quits before the season began.

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11-09-2003, 11:07 AM
  #66
Evilo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
Looking at the Jagr trade... why is it that none of the talents acquired are with the Penguins? We all know they don't have a strong squad in the NHL, it puzzles me as to why Beech, Sivek or Lupaschuk couldn't crack that team.

The Penguins are touted for having this great depth of talent, and I know the Wilkes Barre Scranton Penguins have been a successful minor league club, but Kraft has been labeled a super talent for years now and he hasn't progressed.

Rico Fata finally has come around, and given the situation the Rangers and Capitals are in, the Pens made the right decision in moving those contracts, but the talent they acquired for them was way below market value.

Why couldn't they pull in Fedor Tjutin into the deal? Or Dominic Moore or Dale Purinton, all those guys would have helped more than a Bouchard or Lintner.
They just took on players who won't be returning like Joel Bouchard so they wouldn't be committed to contracts.
If they weren't going to retain Kovalev, why didn't they trade him when the level of interest for Kovalev was at it's highest point? They hung onto him until they were begging for a team to take on his contract.

Also look at the return the Sharks got for Owen Nolan. Financial situation aside, they wanted to unload his contract and got a great return for him.

I think they've been in the rebuilding stages since they dealt Jagr, and since then, how many of their prospects have panned out?
Marc-Andre Fleury is the future and cornerstone of this franchise, and they better surround and support him with some talent, because I don't want to see them stunt his development with another 2-3 seasons of the type of play they have demonstrated this season.

A lot can happen in that time, but I saw what happened with Jamie Storr in LA, who was the highest drafted goalie at that time, and with the poor talent we had here, he showed glimpses of what he was capable of doing, but he never put it together and his confidence had reached an all time low.

Some of you seem to think I hate the Penguins, when I don't. I'm actually frustrated in seeing a team throwing it all away, it seems as though they called it quits before the season began.
Hmm do you really think Sather was : Hey Craig, we know we're the only team willing to take Kovy and all those expensive stiffs, so let me propose you either Tjutin or Bouchard...
and there Craig answers : Hell, I'd rather have Bouchard!
CP HAD NO CHOICE.

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Old
11-09-2003, 11:13 AM
  #67
DJ Spinoza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
I have no respect for a franchise that chooses to bottom out to get somone they want in the draft. I'm sorry, but that is my opinion.
Are you referring to 19 years ago or now? Right now, they don't have much of a choice. They only other option was spending like crazy on some free agents who might make the team a little better, but would totally destroy their financial strategy.
Quote:
Looking at the Jagr trade... why is it that none of the talents acquired are with the Penguins? We all know they don't have a strong squad in the NHL, it puzzles me as to why Beech, Sivek or Lupaschuk couldn't crack that team.
They are 22 years old, and obviously the management doesn't feel they are ready to play in the NHL yet. It's better for them to get good time in the AHL with Therrien, where they will still learn the system too.
Quote:
Why couldn't they pull in Fedor Tjutin into the deal? Or Dominic Moore or Dale Purinton, all those guys would have helped more than a Bouchard or Lintner.
They just took on players who won't be returning like Joel Bouchard so they wouldn't be committed to contracts.
If they weren't going to retain Kovalev, why didn't they trade him when the level of interest for Kovalev was at it's highest point? They hung onto him until they were begging for a team to take on his contract.
Again, this goes back to the situation they are going to have themselves in post CBA. While Kovalev was here, they were not a competitor.

Not only did they unload Kovalev's contract, but they unloaded Mike Wilson's and Janne Laukannen's as well, and got 4.9 million back.

The deal was obviously a financial one, and they were lucky/smart to get one solid young player back in Fata. New York probably doesn't do the deal if Pittsburgh asks for prospects. If they moved Kovy to the Leafs, the Leafs probably don't take Wilson or Laukkanenn, and probably don't pay out the 4.9 million either.
Quote:
I think they've been in the rebuilding stages since they dealt Jagr, and since then, how many of their prospects have panned out?
I don't know which players this is aimed at. Most of the players, Koltsov, Surovy, Murley, Orpik, etc have only played 2 or so years pro. Guys like Sivek and Beech and Lupaschuk have only played slightly more, and as I said, are still only 22. Also, a good bit of these prospects drafted in the past 3 or so years are playing in Juniors, College, or overseas still.
Quote:
Some of you seem to think I hate the Penguins, when I don't. I'm actually frustrated in seeing a team throwing it all away, it seems as though they called it quits before the season began.
I don't see anything that they could have done before the season to improved this team drastically enough to put it into the playoffs, let alone contend for the Cup.

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Old
11-09-2003, 11:16 AM
  #68
Ziggy Stardust
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Hmm do you really think Sather was : Hey Craig, we know we're the only team willing to take Kovy and all those expensive stiffs, so let me propose you either Tjutin or Bouchard...
and there Craig answers : Hell, I'd rather have Bouchard!
CP HAD NO CHOICE.
Patrick, knowing they weren't going to keep Kovalev around much longer, held onto Kovalev too long for reasons I don't know.
I also talked to you about this... Mike Wilson. He shouldn't have been making over $1M the Pens were paying him, and they gave him that contract.
Another one of Craig Patrick's bad moves.
And as I mentioned to you earlier, I've seen the Kings screw up with 18 year old prospects coming in when they were too raw... happened with Jokinen, Berg and Storr, and the constant losing stunted their development because they lost confidence in themselves.

It took Olli five seasons to finally put it all together, but it looks like Berg and Storr are just going to remain to be mediocre players.
I don't think Fleury will plummet like those guys did, but they should be cautious with what they do.

We saw what happened with Dan Blackburn. Aubin, once touted as a top prospect of the Pens, also fizzled away. Fleury has the talent to be the next great French Canadian goaltender, and I think he should already be nominated for the Calder for what he's done... but if you look at the game the Pens had last night, and Marc Andre Fleury was in net... it could really affect and shatter a young man's confidence in themselves, and I knock on wood that won't happen.

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11-09-2003, 11:21 AM
  #69
Ziggy Stardust
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrKnowNothing
I don't see anything that they could have done before the season to improved this team drastically enough to put it into the playoffs, let alone contend for the Cup.
I wasn't expecting that to happen either, but my belief is that they could have produced a better product on the ice that could atleast give up less than 40+ shots a night.

I don't know what Olczyk's coaching style is, but I think it would help the Penguins most to follow a conservative system of reducing shots and playing D first hockey.
Have one forechecker attack with two forwards cogging up the neutral zone and help out the defense. But I haven't seen the Penguins enough to comment on that, but from just looking at the scoresheets, defense is an area they certainly could use some help in.

They aren't going to win many games by trying to outshoot the opposition.

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11-09-2003, 11:29 AM
  #70
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I think one of the major problems as to why they keep giving up so many shots is that most lines can't generate anything offensively. The only one that has done so consistently all year is the Malone-Fata-Morozov line, the rest of them are more or less just trying to hold their own. The top line is back and forth each shift. One time they create some chances, the next time they give up five shots and a good scoring chance.

However, until recently, it seemed that the opposing teams weren't really generating a lot of solid scoring chances. Obviously that's taken a turn for the worse.

The only forwards on this team capable of being solid defensive players are probably at this point Malone, Fata (although Edzo has critisized him for bad defensive play recently, he has the speed), Koltsov, Bradley, Eastwood, and Buchberger. That's bits and pieces of each line. Morozov has improved his play in this area however.

Couple all of that with a defensive corps with no 1, 2, or 3 guy, and you have a guaranteed recipe for being outshot and outscored consistently.

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Old
11-09-2003, 11:30 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brownies
Lemieux = NHL
Straka = NHL
Morozov = NHL
Koltzov = NHL
Fata = NHL
Abid = NHL
Tarnstrom = NHL
Matt Bradley = Nhl (Not on the top 2 lines)
Berehowsky = NHL
Orpik = NHL
Roszival = NHL
Fleury = NHL
Caron = NHL
Webb = AHL (good agitator, but too bad hockey player)
Kraft = AHL
Holzinger = AHL (He wasn't that bad a few years ago)
Buchberger = Should be retired¸
Mckenna = AHL
Bergevin = Should be retired
Melichar = Who knows? Always injured
Focht = AHL

They're a really bad NHL team, not an AHL team. The problem is that they have some good young players, but not a solid group of veterans to help 'em. When Mario and Fleury doesn't play ...Ouch !!! 2 french canadian... interresting :p
Exactly.....finally someone gets it.....while they are a very bad NHL team, they are not of AHL calibur.....just seems to be the consensus among the ignorant...

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11-09-2003, 11:41 AM
  #72
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IMO it's a bit hard to use the dealing of any players to that of Kovalev as there were a lot of factors involved.....1) They could not afford to give Kovy the raise he wanted 2) They needed a lot of cash to be thrown into the deal 3) They had to get rid of Lauks and Wilson....if they just had to deal Kovy, I'm sure the return would have been signifigantly better......

Still, it was one of the most horrendous trades in recent history and it resulted in disencahnting a lot of fans with the organization....the few bright sides is that Fata is playing excellent and Fleury has also been flat out amazing....though 1) Fata could have been aquired quite easily w/o Kovy 2) I'm sure Florida would have taken another guy similar to Samuelsson.....just ways of trying to make an awful awful trade seem like it could have some good in it...

BTW, could somebody give this thread the axe.....please?

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11-09-2003, 11:51 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
Patrick, knowing they weren't going to keep Kovalev around much longer, held onto Kovalev too long for reasons I don't know.
I also talked to you about this... Mike Wilson. He shouldn't have been making over $1M the Pens were paying him, and they gave him that contract.
Another one of Craig Patrick's bad moves.
And as I mentioned to you earlier, I've seen the Kings screw up with 18 year old prospects coming in when they were too raw... happened with Jokinen, Berg and Storr, and the constant losing stunted their development because they lost confidence in themselves.

It took Olli five seasons to finally put it all together, but it looks like Berg and Storr are just going to remain to be mediocre players.
I don't think Fleury will plummet like those guys did, but they should be cautious with what they do.

We saw what happened with Dan Blackburn. Aubin, once touted as a top prospect of the Pens, also fizzled away. Fleury has the talent to be the next great French Canadian goaltender, and I think he should already be nominated for the Calder for what he's done... but if you look at the game the Pens had last night, and Marc Andre Fleury was in net... it could really affect and shatter a young man's confidence in themselves, and I knock on wood that won't happen.
First it was Caron in nets last night.
Second, Patrick tried to sign Kovy intoa long term deal. Given Kovy's refusal, he had trade him during that season. He smartly waited for Kovy to prove his worth hoping one team would bite. Kovy was on an incredible pace that year, but even so his value couldn't grow because of the upcoming CBA. Was a gamble by CP, he lost it. I think he could do it all over again if he had to. Waiting for Kovy to get so many points for his value to go up.
And yes Wilson was a bad move. Has anyone said Patrick never made a bad move? Wilson was one. The Kovalev, Jagr and especially Hrdina deals weren't.

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11-09-2003, 01:38 PM
  #74
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How quickly we forget the Penguins were the top offensive team in the league for years? Where offensive stars reign supreme?

Ottawa and Tampa Bay were a ****ing doormat for nearly a decade before they became NHL powers. The Pens aren't allowed to field a poor team for a few years?

Try and tell me the 92 Senators are better than the 2003 Penguins. Try, because you can't. How about the 92-94 Lightning? No better. Teams go through cycles. The Penguins had poor scouting and development while they were an NHL power and it is killing them now. Having to sell off their stars because of financial situations is killing them now.

Ziggy, what gives you the right to criticize this team and want them gone? This is an "easy win" for any team that players them right? Including your favorite team no doubt. Unless of course your team is one of the three we have managed to beat this year. You aren't a Pen's fan. You don't have to watch this **** and watch games sayin "it'd be nice to pull out a tie". So shut your god damn mouth.


And as for everyone else, yes the defense is atrocious. This is partially to blame for the coaching staff's inability to realize lack of talent and pure stupidity, ala Focht.

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Old
11-09-2003, 04:29 PM
  #75
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowsdower 3:16
BTW, could somebody give this thread the axe.....please?
Uh... no.

The thread actually contains a LOT of interesting information if you ignore a few heated moments. Steve Latin in particular was extremely informative and provided tons of great links and good arguments.

Useless threads get the axe. Informative threads that hurt someone's feelings shouldn't.

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