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Old
07-04-2006, 01:47 AM
  #1
Pangu
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Fire Muckler Thread!

Hey, y'all knew I would not be very pleased with Mucks doings this offseason and that I have quite a bit of critisism in hindsite about the team he assembled for last year's run, so I figure I might as well be the one to call for Mucks head.

I know the offseason is still young, but I don't like any of his moves so far. More importantly I don't like the moves he made in the past in hindsite. I mean I know that is kind of cheating, but I expect a GM to foresee some of the stuff that I did/would not. I guess we all have our laundry lists, but the basic one for me is that this guy came in to win the cup right away and right away was quite a lond time ago. He failed to win, he had a second chance and failed again. Well fool me once...

I said after the end of the playoffs that they should fire Mucks after he got his picks in and signed our UFAs since he was in a better position than a newby would be, but now I would prefer the newby.

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07-04-2006, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by champben2002 View Post
Hey, y'all knew I would not be very pleased with Mucks doings this offseason and that I have quite a bit of critisism in hindsite about the team he assembled for last year's run, so I figure I might as well be the one to call for Mucks head.

I know the offseason is still young, but I don't like any of his moves so far. More importantly I don't like the moves he made in the past in hindsite. I mean I know that is kind of cheating, but I expect a GM to foresee some of the stuff that I did/would not. I guess we all have our laundry lists, but the basic one for me is that this guy came in to win the cup right away and right away was quite a lond time ago. He failed to win, he had a second chance and failed again. Well fool me once...

I said after the end of the playoffs that they should fire Mucks after he got his picks in and signed our UFAs since he was in a better position than a newby would be, but now I would prefer the newby.

I personally think you should cheer for the Leafs.

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07-04-2006, 01:54 AM
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Jorge Garcia
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Originally Posted by cup2006sensrule View Post
I personally think you should cheer for the Leafs.
I'll chip in to buy you a nice Tucker jersey. Bye.

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07-04-2006, 03:48 AM
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On Chara:

Can't fault Muckler here. Too much cash. In 3 years time, that $7.5m pays for Phillips, Vermette and Eaves (or some similiar combination). I'd hate to have seen them re-sign Chara only to trade away Havlat this year, Phillips next, Heatley the year after that and so on ...

On Gerber:

Might have overpaid a bit, but I'd say that the other options were more expensive ones. Legace is probably asking $4m+ at least we didn't have to give up someone to get him (Nabokov, Giguere). His contract is still shorter than Nabby's. I personally would have preferred a 2 year deal on the same terms because I think Emery deserves his shot at the starting job before 2010.

On Corvo:

This was a surprise and we are defiinitely overpaying by at least $500k but it does fill the needs of the team. If Corvo can step in at #4 he may be the RH shot defenseman the team (and us fans) has coveted so long. All in all I probably would have preferred Ward ($50k extra) but I'm willing to see how Corvo goes.

On Arnason:

No problem with this one. He obviously didn't have the commitment. It's one thing to be in a slump but Murray clearly spotted something lacking in this guy. Good luck to Tyler in Colorado.

On Spezza:

$4.5m. Spot on. Some may say it's too much but it's exactly what Heatley makes (averaged) and a 2 year deal is managable for both sides. Great to see a deal get done early too. It sends a message that both sides are commited to Spezza in a Sens jersey.

On Novak:

I was surprised by this but there may be something else at play. Maybe he's returning to Europe or maybe the Sens are trying to negotiate a longer deal with him. Good luck to Novak too.

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07-04-2006, 07:02 AM
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Muckler is just getting his Mojo back. If this thread was posted a little more then a week ago, I would be completly on board .

However, Muckler acquired Martin "Peas & Carrots" Gerber, who is seriously and perhaps ill advisedly a personal favorite of mine.

Before the UFA period, the sens appeared to be compelled to flip a key asset in Havlat for Toskala or Nabakov. Muckler resolved the sittuatin and now it gives the sens the flexibillity to be a little more selective in dealing Havlat.

I'll give Corvo a chance. And as previously mentioned in a different thread, his highlight pack on NHL.com is impressive. The guy can skate, pass and shoot a la Mcabe. I encourage everyone to watch. Since they primarily focus on goals, viewing the Camilleri(sp?) clip is worth the time, as Corvo factors in on many of his goals.

And for those no happy with old Mucks, there maybe more to come soon..from today's Ottawa Sun:

http://ottsun.canoe.ca/Sports/Senato...66918-sun.html

Quote:
The Senators, who have committed more than $34 million in salary with up to eight more players to sign, are talking with several teams about moving Havlat, who will be looking to make Spezza-type money.

Muckler also said the club is still sifting through the free-agent market for a fourth-line centre and a defenceman.

"What we're looking at right now is the Tier II group of free agents and there's some good players in there who we feel can help us," said Muckler.

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07-04-2006, 08:00 AM
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Nope, don't hate Muckler

You can't squeeze blood from a stone, and when you only have so much money, you only have so much. So shake it off already. Chara Redden thing was invevitable. I was more for Chara as time went on, but bah, what do you do. I'm super disappoitned that he wouldn't stay here for 6 mil.. if the reports were true.


Perspective: We're battling for 1st in the Division for the past few years, no reason to fire. As the previous poster said - go be a leafs fan, then it'll be really easy to hate management.

Reality: They say winning the stanley cup is the hardest trophy to win in all sports. So it's worth the wait.

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07-04-2006, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cup2006sensrule View Post
I personally think you should cheer for the Leafs.
This insinuates one of two things. Either you are a poor Sens fan who only chears for them while they are doing well. Or you are a poor poster, since you believe that everyone should just say how good management is for some bizarre reason.

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07-04-2006, 08:20 AM
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Wow, so many people suppot a guy that came to our city with a mandate to immediately win a cup and after 3 seasons you all are willing to just keep waiting. He clearly has failed in his job, but some of you are so willing to let him off the hook... why? He came in with a team that had the best assets in the league. He could have made trades to alter the chemistry of the team. He had time in the "old" NHL and time in the "new" NHL to make things happen. He had an opportunity to bring in his in own coach. He has had every opportuity that a GM can be afforded to get the job done and he has failed... 3 times.

Many GMs put this team together. Many coahces helped to train our players. We started off with owners that had a dream of how to build an NHL powerhouse in little Ottawa. Now we have put all of their effort in the hands of Muckler and he is letting them down. For pointing out his failings I get condemned?

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07-04-2006, 08:33 AM
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While we can all hope for the best,many of Muckler's moves have been questionable to say the least. To call these moves into question does not mean that the poster is a Leafs fan any more than whoever started the many many threads that we have had in here slamming any and all of the players.

I have detalied my objections to several of his moves before, particularly his trade deadline deals. I also find that he tends to overpay some players,his boys, that he champions, and lowball others and then trash them in the press..

Today he is proclaiming that it took no time at all to neogiate with Spezza-well maybe he should have taken just a little bit more time. You are not going to have much trouble"negotiating" when you give the player all he wants and more.
If he had offered 1,300,000 as he did Havlat under similar circumstances,then there might have been a little more negotiations.

Muckler alwyas portrayed himself as Spezza's champion against the cruel Jacques Martin who persited in trying to get him to play better defence and sat him when he didn't. Spezza also was treated differently because Muckler considers him a franchise player and the cornerstone of the Senators. If that is the case, he should just stop attacking other players as greedy euros or whatever, when they ask for fair market vlaue. but receive instead hard ball negotiating and a trashing in the press a la Havlat and even Hossa after the sign and trade.
.
These things don't go unnoticed by other players.

When you look back at his body of work here, it can hardly be consdered stellar. He may have frittered away the Sens best chance for a Cup and left the organiztion with a depleted lineup both here and in Bingahamton.

That Muckler's moves are not hailed as acts of genius does not mean that any of his critics support the team any less than his supporters, and hope that things turn out well. His body of work can and should be called into account however,as he has been steering this boat for ahwile now.

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07-04-2006, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by champben2002 View Post
Wow, so many people suppot a guy that came to our city with a mandate to immediately win a cup and after 3 seasons you all are willing to just keep waiting. He clearly has failed in his job, but some of you are so willing to let him off the hook... why? He came in with a team that had the best assets in the league. He could have made trades to alter the chemistry of the team. He had time in the "old" NHL and time in the "new" NHL to make things happen. He had an opportunity to bring in his in own coach. He has had every opportuity that a GM can be afforded to get the job done and he has failed... 3 times.

Many GMs put this team together. Many coahces helped to train our players. We started off with owners that had a dream of how to build an NHL powerhouse in little Ottawa. Now we have put all of their effort in the hands of Muckler and he is letting them down. For pointing out his failings I get condemned?

You do know there are 29 other teams that want that Cup every year as well? the Sens aren't playing in a league by themselves - every GM's mandate is to win the Cup - should there be 29 GMs fired every season?

On the surface few of Muckler's moves have been terrible. Signing Hasek looked like a great move until his injury - he was perhaps the best goalie in the league.

Not giving up Volchenkov, Vermette and a first rounder for four months of Doug Weight wasn't a poor move at the time, and it still isn't. Are there any guarantees that Weight would have made the difference? Hardly. Carolina won despite of Weight; he was far from being their top player; he wasn't even one of their top six playoff performers (Rod, Eric, Cam, Justin, Bret, Ray, Aaron and others were better).

How many teams re-signed one of their elite UFA defencemen this summer? Ottawa.

He made moves, so don't accuse him of standing pat. when you have the talent he's had to tinker with the past three years, you don't just blow it all up.


Not all of Muck's moves have turned to gold - but no GM in the league can make that claim.


It's really easy to sit back and blame this guy or that guy in hindsight and claim to know the better way of doing things. That's the easy part. It doesn't make you any smarter.

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07-04-2006, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
Not giving up Volchenkov, Vermette and a first rounder for four months of Doug Weight wasn't a poor move at the time, and it still isn't.
.
Of course he should not have made such a deal. But Carolina didn't give up anything like that to get Weight.

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07-04-2006, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
You do know there are 29 other teams that want that Cup every year as well? the Sens aren't playing in a league by themselves - every GM's mandate is to win the Cup - should there be 29 GMs fired every season?

On the surface few of Muckler's moves have been terrible. Signing Hasek looked like a great move until his injury - he was perhaps the best goalie in the league.

Not giving up Volchenkov, Vermette and a first rounder for four months of Doug Weight wasn't a poor move at the time, and it still isn't. Are there any guarantees that Weight would have made the difference? Hardly. Carolina won despite of Weight; he was far from being their top player; he wasn't even one of their top six playoff performers (Rod, Eric, Cam, Justin, Bret, Ray, Aaron and others were better).

How many teams re-signed one of their elite UFA defencemen this summer? Ottawa.

He made moves, so don't accuse him of standing pat. when you have the talent he's had to tinker with the past three years, you don't just blow it all up.


Not all of Muck's moves have turned to gold - but no GM in the league can make that claim.


It's really easy to sit back and blame this guy or that guy in hindsight and claim to know the better way of doing things. That's the easy part. It doesn't make you any smarter.
Its hardly true to say that every GMs mandate is to immediately win the Stanley Cup. Most teams try to just remain competitive. Only a few teams have the talent to really try to win the cup and the Sens have been at the top of that heat for the last few years now. When he came here that was his mandate... to win now. Some Gms are brought in to re-build a team, some to at least improve a team and doing a good job for the Sens meant going one step further then his predessesor ... winning the Cup. He failed to do that.

All of his moves costed the Sens prospects and didn't get us the return that we wanted. They were also failures based on the players themselves.Bondra, Smoke, De Vries, Varada, etc. were all failures. And frankly he is paid to do a better job then us. He is paid to know what the condition of those players are before they come here. He is not paid to fool us into thinking Corvo and Gerber are wotha combined 5.7 mil.

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07-04-2006, 08:53 AM
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I agree with the thread topic. Have not been a Muckler fan and believe he's overrated. We've had some great GM's here (Marshall Johnston!) but Muckler can go.

That being said, I want to keep things positive...We have a young, exciting franchise that will get it's playoff's turnaround eventually. Don't forget that Vermette, Fisher, Heatley, Spezza, Mezaros, and Eaves are still young and getting better each season. We have solid vets (Reddon, Alfie, and Smoke) and a goalie. Let's watch for some results.

What about Mathew Barnaby coming in to replace the role of Vaclav Varada as the agitator?

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07-04-2006, 09:15 AM
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I find it funny that a bunch of joe bloes are so questioning the job of someone who is REALLY a GM!!

I do that myself sometimes in regards to hockey in general and i think , i'm here, they're there.... they know better.

And yes, at the end of the day, they know better.

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07-04-2006, 09:20 AM
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I'm in agreement with champben on this, but for different reasons.

My reasons are all based on one word - planning.

It appears as if John Muckler not only is without a plan, but that he is also changing the plan that was in place before he arrived. Let me explain:

Before he arrived, the trade of Tim Gleason for Brian Smolinski would never have happened, because we would never have given away a prospect of that nature for what is, at BEST, a second line centre who plays without passion. Varada. De Vries. He is spending the principal (money) that Marshall Johnston, Rick Dudley, Pierre Page, etc have deposited into the Ottawa Senators' account. Previous GMs of this team have deposited principal in the form of great prospects and great talent levels of the players on the team. John Muckler took the job in Ottawa, and looked at the amount of principal in this account. "Wow! I have a lot of money to spend!" He's spending it. He's spending the principal, instead of the interest. Bad management, bad leadership.

We've seen in this offseason his other deficiency - he doesn't have a plan for improving this team during free agency. My reasons for saying this:
  • He's bought a goalie, but one that has had only one season as a starter. Only one good season.
  • Joe Corvo. Is he supposed to replace Chara? Or Pothier? He may take Pothier's place on the roster, but what about a "shutdown" defenceman? Aaron Ward? Brendan Witt? Jay McKee?
  • He's now after a defenceman. Who is left? What is available? Second tier? Please, we need another shutdown D
  • It is becoming apparent that he is expecting Kaigorodev to be this team's second line centre this year. I think we're in trouble if we expect two very young men to lead this team at centre this year. Actually, Fisher isn't very old, so that makes three very young centres.

So, my question is - what is the plan of John Muckler? Is there a plan? Or is his plan to "try my best"? Does he know what risk management is?

Anyway, that is my opinion. I don't see a reason to get excited about this year. I don't see how we've improved from last year.

W

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07-04-2006, 09:28 AM
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In my mind, all this thread does is emphasize how some Ottawa fans basically feel entitled to a Stanley Cup.

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07-04-2006, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwhite View Post
I'm in agreement with champben on this, but for different reasons.

My reasons are all based on one word - planning.

It appears as if John Muckler not only is without a plan, but that he is also changing the plan that was in place before he arrived. Let me explain:

Before he arrived, the trade of Tim Gleason for Brian Smolinski would never have happened, because we would never have given away a prospect of that nature for what is, at BEST, a second line centre who plays without passion. Varada. De Vries. He is spending the principal (money) that Marshall Johnston, Rick Dudley, Pierre Page, etc have deposited into the Ottawa Senators' account. Previous GMs of this team have deposited principal in the form of great prospects and great talent levels of the players on the team. John Muckler took the job in Ottawa, and looked at the amount of principal in this account. "Wow! I have a lot of money to spend!" He's spending it. He's spending the principal, instead of the interest. Bad management, bad leadership.

We've seen in this offseason his other deficiency - he doesn't have a plan for improving this team during free agency. My reasons for saying this:
  • He's bought a goalie, but one that has had only one season as a starter. Only one good season.
  • Joe Corvo. Is he supposed to replace Chara? Or Pothier? He may take Pothier's place on the roster, but what about a "shutdown" defenceman? Aaron Ward? Brendan Witt? Jay McKee?
  • He's now after a defenceman. Who is left? What is available? Second tier? Please, we need another shutdown D
  • It is becoming apparent that he is expecting Kaigorodev to be this team's second line centre this year. I think we're in trouble if we expect two very young men to lead this team at centre this year. Actually, Fisher isn't very old, so that makes three very young centres.

So, my question is - what is the plan of John Muckler? Is there a plan? Or is his plan to "try my best"? Does he know what risk management is?

Anyway, that is my opinion. I don't see a reason to get excited about this year. I don't see how we've improved from last year.

W

Of all the posts I've read about "fire muckler", this has been the most reasonable imo.

However, I do want to point out a few things :

- no one can replace Chara right now. i don't think anyone that could be brought in , could do it. That's why i was thinking Redden is more replaceable. So when we signed somebody else, we all had to know it wasn't going to be a Chara replacement

- teams don't need big names. Look at Buffalo. I think getting Tier2 players is okay. We have a bunch of superstars for a few years, and fail to win.

- i think more than ever it's hard to plan a team for the long term. Reason why i believe this is due to the salary cap. You get a player that shines for 1 year and all of a sudden, everybody wants him. It's so frustrating, but i feel that's reality.

-I think we had IT WAY TO GOOD. That team wasn't going to stay forever, and now, when we pick up somebody that we don't know much about, it's scarey.

-Goalie situation . What else could he do ? Really, we're lucky we got him as he had 2 other good offers. There isn't a lot of marketable goalies out there for grabs. I don't blame him for that. I actually think that was a tough move for him and a good one at that.

All in all, we have a good team that i can be proud of . And like another post said , 29 teams have to lose. We're going to lose a lot. i just hope we make it as far as we should this year. We'll see.

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07-04-2006, 09:35 AM
  #18
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
In my mind, all this thread does is emphasize how some Ottawa fans basically feel entitled to a Stanley Cup.

Are we?
Entitled seems like we deserve it. LOL ... Sure, i want the parade and all.

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07-04-2006, 09:41 AM
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*sigh*

How much cap room does Muckler have to work with? Not to mention what Melnyk will ACTUALLY spend?

I think he's done a fairly good job this off-season myself.

We tried for Luongo (a very attractive package too) but Keenan went with Bertuzzi.

So we went after the other best goalie who was available. Carolina was a competitive team all year (re: one less point than the Senators) and much of that was due to Gerber. Ward did not have a consistent regular season at all.

Unfortunately, there are no career all-star, playoff-proven, Stanley Cup winning goalies available. One good season is still better than some of these other guys who switched teams.

Corvo isn't great, but he's not replacing Chara. Remember, Pothier had a decent stretch-drive but for most of the season he was the team's goat (along with Smolinski). Corvo plays a similar style and hopefully can be paired with one of our steady d-men to provide some puck movement and skating ability.

Finally, Muckler may not be done. Evaluating him now is pointless.

We all knew there would be changes at the end of this season. There are a lot of teams with a lot of cap room out there making a lot of moves. The price of being such a competitive team like Ottawa is a distinct lack of cap room.

I'm really not sure what people actually expected to see.

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07-04-2006, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by wwhite View Post
I'm in agreement with champben on this, but for different reasons.

My reasons are all based on one word - planning.

It appears as if John Muckler not only is without a plan, but that he is also changing the plan that was in place before he arrived. Let me explain:

Before he arrived, the trade of Tim Gleason for Brian Smolinski would never have happened, because we would never have given away a prospect of that nature for what is, at BEST, a second line centre who plays without passion.
The trade of Tim Gleason had to happen. Gleason was not going to sign with the Sens and had planned to re-enter the draft. Be4cause of this he had to be dealt and to get a versitile 20 goal scorer that brought leadership to a young Sens team was a plus. Dont forget he had rave reviews just a year earlier when he was used as a shutdown center for the Kings in the playoffs. It was a great move looking at the circumstances behind it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwhite View Post
We've seen in this offseason his other deficiency - he doesn't have a plan for improving this team during free agency. My reasons for saying this:
He's bought a goalie, but one that has had only one season as a starter. Only one good season.
There was not muche better out there then Gerber. The guy had a fantastic olympics and was 38-14 in the regulor season. It was a solid move picking him up for nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwhite View Post
  • Joe Corvo. Is he supposed to replace Chara? Or Pothier? He may take Pothier's place on the roster, but what about a "shutdown" defenceman? Aaron Ward? Brendan Witt? Jay McKee?
Joe Corvo is supposed to be an offensive puckmoving defenseman. He will be a 50 point player for us. The Buffalo series showed that mobility on defense was servilily lacking and Corvo will help out in that regard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wwhite View Post
  • He's now after a defenceman. Who is left? What is available? Second tier? Please, we need another shutdown D
Why?
Redden-Meszaros
Corvo-Phillips
Volchenkov-?

That looks like a solid top 5 to me. Still a top 10 defense in the NHL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwhite View Post
  • It is becoming apparent that he is expecting Kaigorodev to be this team's second line centre this year. I think we're in trouble if we expect two very young men to lead this team at centre this year. Actually, Fisher isn't very old, so that makes three very young centres.
Spezza second in assists this past season. Franchise center
Fisher was a selke dominee and is an awsome two-way player
Kaigorodov has been compared to Datsyuk and Larionov, lets see what these three can do before we look for another center.

Seems solid to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwhite View Post
So, my question is - what is the plan of John Muckler? Is there a plan? Or is his plan to "try my best"? Does he know what risk management is?

Anyway, that is my opinion. I don't see a reason to get excited about this year. I don't see how we've improved from last year.W
Mobility in defense
A number 1 goalie
Added improvement from our young players
I guess the team will not improve.

The Sens are in great shape and Muckler has done a good job. I see no reason to complane.

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Old
07-04-2006, 09:54 AM
  #21
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its not muckler's fault..it's the new nhl. it's hell bent on spreading out the talent and unfortunately, we are gonna be hit the hardest. it starts with chara and havlat and in 2years, spezza or redden or heatley will be gone. i just hope we can rack up on prospects and build our team like the Ducks have (with stud prospects, not the big twosome).

I'm all for doing what it takes to win the cup next year (mez, lee, spezza are untouchables) and then picking a couple players to build around (possibly mez, lee, spezza, heatley) and trading the others (redden, philips, vermette) for prospects or picks. it's the consequences of the new nhl and is not management's fault. in 4-5 years, columbus and pittsburgh are going to be in the same position that we are now.

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07-04-2006, 09:55 AM
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I agree with NyQuil 100%. I personally like Gerber and I know I'd have been really pissed with Muckler if Gerber was still available and he signed Hasek back again.

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07-04-2006, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by JackBauer View Post
its not muckler's fault..it's the new nhl. it's hell bent on spreading out the talent and unfortunately, we are gonna be hit the hardest. it starts with chara and havlat and in 2years, spezza or redden or heatley will be gone. i just hope we can rack up on prospects and build our team like the Ducks have.

Thats assuming we cant replace anyone. In the new NHL it will be about finding the players that have not been used proporly. Corvo is a prime example, he will be a 50 point defenseman for us, thats quite a find for 2.6 million dollars.

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07-04-2006, 10:05 AM
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Thats assuming we cant replace anyone. In the new NHL it will be about finding the players that have not been used proporly. Corvo is a prime example, he will be a 50 point defenseman for us, thats quite a find for 2.6 million dollars.
Depends where/how he plays.

Half his production was on the PP where I believe he played with Visnovsky.

If Ottawa keeps Redden and Alfredsson on the points as usual, Corvo would play on the 2nd unit and might see less production.

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07-04-2006, 10:12 AM
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Depends where/how he plays.

Half his production was on the PP where I believe he played with Visnovsky.

If Ottawa keeps Redden and Alfredsson on the points as usual, Corvo would play on the 2nd unit and might see less production.
I think Corvo will be used the same way McCabe has been used. Thats the type of PP we need in the playoffs, big point shot and then crash the net. Could not hurt to work on it all season. I thing Alfie-Spezza and Heatley up front with Corvo and Redden on the point. Meszaros can QB the second unit

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