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Old
07-04-2006, 12:26 PM
  #51
jamiebez
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Been away for a bit... lots has happened.

I'm not surprised to see all the hate for Muckler, but I personally disagree with most of it. Seems a lot of people are criticizing him for things he didn't do (acquiring a veteran leader, a 2nd line center, etc) that what he has actually done.

For me, it breaks down like this:
- the team's drafting record under him has been very good, perhaps excellent (we'll see on Lee and Foligno)
- The "player for player" trades he has made (Heatley, Scheafer) have been very good.
- The deadline deals (Arnason, DeVries, Bondra) have been bad, but at least he wasn't sending away 1st round picks or blue-chip prospects. The only one that stands out for me as "terrible" is the Arnason deal.
- His forays into free agency have not been great, nor numerous, but I really like the Gerber signing and I'll wait and see on Corvo.
- He rolled the dice on Hasek and lost. He gets big points from me for having the sense not to do so again
- He has yet to give out an unreasonable contract (and I include Smolinski in this). He's got most guys to re-up for less than they could have got on the open market (Alfie especially), so he's doing something right in negotiations.

On the whole, I'd give him aout a B to a B-. The idea of firing him at this juncture is ludicrous to me.

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07-04-2006, 12:29 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by SuperRob View Post
Not beating the Leafs has been a failure (that was pinned on Jacques Martin). Handling of the Peter Chairelli issue was done poorly.

A new GM would be beneficial and I will question weak leadership.
Mucklers Sens lost to the Leafs once. The history of failure against Toronto goes back a long way before Muckler.

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07-04-2006, 12:41 PM
  #53
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Jamie,

You're probably getting the 'gist' of my message regarding Mr. Muckler. While I'm not actively calling for him to be fired, I am questioning his leadership.

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Originally Posted by jamiebez View Post
the team's drafting record under him has been very good, perhaps excellent (we'll see on Lee and Foligno)
Congratulations, Frank Jay. You are making John Muckler look like a very good drafter.

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The "player for player" trades he has made (Heatley, Scheafer) have been very good.
These have fallen into his lap. The man may know how to sieze an opportunity, but doesn't appear to be able to create one.

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The deadline deals (Arnason, DeVries, Bondra) have been bad, but at least he wasn't sending away 1st round picks or blue-chip prospects. The only one that stands out for me as "terrible" is the Arnason deal.
Yep

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He has yet to give out an unreasonable contract (and I include Smolinski in this).
I thought Peter Chiarelli was the lead negotiator for the Sens. Isn't that why they made Boston sign that ridiculous deal?

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On the whole, I'd give him aout a B to a B-. The idea of firing him at this juncture is ludicrous to me.
Personally, I'd rate him at BEST a C, closer to a D or D-. My previous posts explain why.

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07-04-2006, 01:07 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Wondercarrot View Post
he didnt overpay, he didnt get a long enough deal out of him.
Hossa's contract would have been 6 million not 5.
Hossa must be the only player in the league that doesnt give the puck away i guess.

Christ people are friggin retarded about Spezza's 'giveaways'.
So you are happy when Spezza blindly passes the puck away? When he Kills all of Ottawa's momentum with one no look pass? When a highly skilled player throws the puck away over and over again. And all the while not learning from your mistakes. Wow you must be the only one I know who likes that quality in a player!
It's called a turnover & it ain't good. As a fan it's very discouraging to see Ottawa gain the zone and have Spezza pass the puck to no one. I can only hope $4.5 million, which apparently to you isn't to much, will get Ottawa some better all around play.

I am not saying Spezza is a bad player, but come one $4.5 million for a 23 yr old who had 1 good season? there's no way any hockey player wouldn't sign that contract..... But come on Muckler!

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07-04-2006, 01:33 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by SensGuy View Post
That's my biggest problem with the deal as well. It's really not that bad money wise, although I would have preferred a little less money, but I would have liked to have seen a year or possibly two added on at that price.
I think one possible reason is that they did not want this contract to expire when Spezza reaches UFA. If it was a three year deal then it could be his last as a Senator. At two years, you can try to sign him for UFA money in two years or trade him, and the expensive third year will go all on someone else's cap then, not ours this year.

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Originally Posted by SensGuy View Post
I'm actually a really big fan of the Gerber deal. I think he'll come in and do a great job in nets for Ottawa. His problem last year could have been that he wore down as the year went on, but with Emery behind him, he probably won't be starting 60 games. I was completely against bringing back Hasek and I'm glad Muckler stayed away from that.
I like the Gerber deal too. The cheapskate in my loved the idea of Hasek for $1 million though.

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The Corvo deal...I've already expressed my displeasure with this one so I won't go any further. I'm willing to give the guy a chance in Ottawa, but nothing I've seen of him in LA gives me a lot of hope.
I'm a little more hopeful, mostly because I'm more ignorant.

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His trades have been getting progressively worse. He did great with the Schaefer move, and did fine with the Smolinski and Varada deals when you consider how long they played in Ottawa, but it hasn't been that great since then, outside the Heatley move. The deVries deal, I understand why he was looking to bring him in and for some reason deVries just never got comfortable here. The Bondra deal didn't make a whole lot of sense. We already had a lot of players like him, we didn't need another. And the Arnason deal is just brutal any way you look at it.
I would say trades have been his biggest weakness. With long-term planning being second. It's a little hard to be critical about the planning because we don't know what the plan actually is. It might be brilliant and set the team up to be dominant for 5 years. But from the limited info we've seen so far, it's nothing special.

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In all honesty, Muckler hasn't done a terrible job this summer. He's got a lot more on his plate than most teams do and he's done better than some. His awfulness has been exaggerated (admittedly, by myself at times too). There's a lot of time left before the start of the season and it looks he's going to have to get creative to fit this team under the cap, so I'm interested to see how he handles it.
Me too. If the team really has a year-long budget of $40 million (meaning about $38 for the active roster at the start of the season) we're going to see some unpopular and painful choices.

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Old
07-04-2006, 03:05 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by wwhite View Post
You're probably getting the 'gist' of my message regarding Mr. Muckler. While I'm not actively calling for him to be fired, I am questioning his leadership.
Well, I wasn't so much responding just to you, rather the thread as a whole

On the specific point of his leadership, I don't know that I would question it to the degree that you do. After all, if we can agree that his staff has done well at contracts and drafting, doesn't he deserve some credit for that? If he trades away 1st round draft picks, Frank Jay & the scouts have a lot less to work with, and the draft record consequently isn't as good. If he acquires guys with unreasonable contracts, that means less room in the budget for Chiarelli or his successor to work with.

Besides, we don't really know how much of a role Muckler really plays in scouting and drafting. Some GMs are very active in these aspects, some not at all.

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07-04-2006, 03:19 PM
  #57
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OK here's my rant, I've had just about enough of this.

I still don't see anybody explaining why Muckler gets ripped for deals he did not make. he was int eh market for Pronger, Luongo, Toskala, Cole. He can't deal if the other party bails or wants excessive returns. It takes two to tango.

The reaction to the Gerber & Corvo signings is ludricous. Corvo is a player that the majority of Sens fans know nothing about, and he's a bum...why...because Corvo is full of holes defensively...or so say a bunch of LA Kings fans who just lost 1 of their top 4 dman and who I'm sure when it comes to judging hockey talent are the experts in the field. Murray got to see a lot of Corvo and te Kings when he was in Anaheim and I'm pretty sure the Sens scouts saw him more than a few times. They are in a much better position to guage his talents. And if rumours are true, Poti and the Habs are set to sign a 4-year $15M deal, and you guys complain about Corvo's contract? Gerber was the best goalie available. Hasek was not an option. Murray made that crystal clear at the end of the season. Gerber was standout last year. Murray knows him better than most given he was the one that signed him in Anaheim. And yet some of the posters here would have you believe Muckler could have done better. Roy is retired! He ain't coming back. There was no better option.

Muckler trades Bochenski for Arnason and it's like he got rid of the guy who was going to deliver a Stanley Cup. It was effing Bochenski! 7th round draft pick who probably peaked in training camp and will never achieve those lofty heights again in his life. He lets Novak walk and people treat it like he just put a 21-year old Bobby Orr on waivers. It's effing Filip Novak. If you guys seriously think that Bochenski and Novak were the ingredients missing from the team to make them cup winners, then you are in a lot more sorry state than I thought.

Muckler signs Spezza to market value and he overpays him but if he had signed him to a $3M deal then posters would be complaining about lowballing him and ruining any chance of Spezza staying long-term. All this as if the posters here know what market value is supposed to be. I look at posts where they are pencilling in Pothier on the Sens D at $1M...well he got $2.5M, I'd say that missing market value by 2.5 times is a bit off the mark.

Muckler knows more about hockey than the collective group here (and I include myself) by a country mile. He and Murray and the staff are all experienced hockey men who do this for a living. That is what they do...watch hockey players..over and over and over again. Not just on TV once or twice a week. The days of Firestone and Sexton are long gone.

The attitude around here is that it is the Sens' god given right to win a stanley cup. Well guess what we live in the real world. Real dollars, real budgets, real teams out there trying to do the same thing as trhe Sens, not some computer game that alows you to trade Thorton for Filip effing Novak straight up. Be thankful the Sens are competitive and have a shot at the cup. What more do you want...a guarantee...well there are none in the real world...if you want a guarantee go buy a toaster, it may not be the stanley cup, but it too is silver and shiny.

rant over. I feel better now.

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07-04-2006, 07:04 PM
  #58
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Yeah, well in the real world people are judged on their results as much or more than on their methods. Especially when they know more about their field then their evaluators. And what are his results? You can say a team can't shoot, you can say that they's can't skate, and sure you can say they can't dance either, but at the end of the game its only the scoreboard that counts and he is loosing. Welcome to the NHL where the cup is the only thing that counts. Welcome to the NHL where GMs are annually fired if their team does not meet its expectations. There are fans like Nyquil that are content with less, but personally I have always been happy that I didn't have to be a Leaf fan chearing for the always content just to make the playoffs, MLSE.

Am I just irratated with what he hasn't done. Well no, Murray appears to be an awful coach, incapable of learning from the past mistakes of his predecessor. But I have all the right in the world to complain about his failure to do things as well. I mean we don't know what his options were, but we do know that the choices he made didn't take us down the golden brick road and did manage to give us two years left tell Senators doomsday.

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07-04-2006, 07:14 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by champben2002 View Post
Yeah, well in the real world people are judged on their results as much or more than on their methods. Especially when they know more about their field then their evaluators. And what are his results? You can say a team can't shoot, you can say that they's can't skate, and sure you can say they can't dance either, but at the end of the game its only the scoreboard that counts and he is loosing. Welcome to the NHL where the cup is the only thing that counts. Welcome to the NHL where GMs are annually fired if their team does not meet its expectations. There are fans like Nyquil that are content with less, but personally I have always been happy that I didn't have to be a Leaf fan chearing for the always content just to make the playoffs, MLSE.

Am I just irratated with what he hasn't done. Well no, Murray appears to be an awful coach, incapable of learning from the past mistakes of his predecessor. But I have all the right in the world to complain about his failure to do things as well. I mean we don't know what his options were, but we do know that the choices he made didn't take us down the golden brick road and did manage to give us two years left tell Senators doomsday.
Of course you can voice an opinion, everybody can. But it gets ridiculous when no matter what Muckler does he gets critized. It is to the point now that he could sign Wayne Gretzky in his prime for minimum wage and people would be complaining that Muckler's a boob because he can't recognize that we have enough scoring and not enough grinders, or that how can Spezza get $4.5 when Gretzky is ony getting $0.5. No matter what he does he gets criticized, and why because we have not won a cup. Well excuse me but there are 26 other teams that have not won a cup in the last three years either. If the favourite won the cup all the time then there would be no point in playing the games. Everybody here wants the Sens to win a cup and soon, but I for one and very happy with the team and the fact that it is not being blown up. I like our team and players.

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07-04-2006, 07:16 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by champben2002 View Post
Yeah, well in the real world people are judged on their results as much or more than on their methods. Especially when they know more about their field then their evaluators. And what are his results? You can say a team can't shoot, you can say that they's can't skate, and sure you can say they can't dance either, but at the end of the game its only the scoreboard that counts and he is loosing. Welcome to the NHL where the cup is the only thing that counts. Welcome to the NHL where GMs are annually fired if their team does not meet its expectations. There are fans like Nyquil that are content with less, but personally I have always been happy that I didn't have to be a Leaf fan chearing for the always content just to make the playoffs, MLSE.

Am I just irratated with what he hasn't done. Well no, Murray appears to be an awful coach, incapable of learning from the past mistakes of his predecessor. But I have all the right in the world to complain about his failure to do things as well. I mean we don't know what his options were, but we do know that the choices he made didn't take us down the golden brick road and did manage to give us two years left tell Senators doomsday.
29 GM's should be fired then! Listen, chump, champ, whatever, as the guy who insists on trading Fisher and Schaefer of all people, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove other than nonsense. I for one hope you hurry up and get off the bandwagon.

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07-04-2006, 07:22 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by champben2002 View Post
Yeah, well in the real world people are judged on their results as much or more than on their methods. Especially when they know more about their field then their evaluators. And what are his results? You can say a team can't shoot, you can say that they's can't skate, and sure you can say they can't dance either, but at the end of the game its only the scoreboard that counts and he is loosing. Welcome to the NHL where the cup is the only thing that counts. Welcome to the NHL where GMs are annually fired if their team does not meet its expectations. There are fans like Nyquil that are content with less, but personally I have always been happy that I didn't have to be a Leaf fan chearing for the always content just to make the playoffs, MLSE.

Am I just irratated with what he hasn't done. Well no, Murray appears to be an awful coach, incapable of learning from the past mistakes of his predecessor. But I have all the right in the world to complain about his failure to do things as well. I mean we don't know what his options were, but we do know that the choices he made didn't take us down the golden brick road and did manage to give us two years left tell Senators doomsday.

I don't think Nyquil is content with losing. He is content with having a really good team that has a legitimate chance at the Cup every season. That's what we have got in Ottawa for about 6 seasons or so. Some years we are the prohibitive favorites others we have been one of the top contenders but not a favorite. Either way we are always there with a shot.

What Muckler has doen this off season has ensured we are going to be a true contender for 2 more seasons almost guaranteed.

I want to win the Cup as much as anyone but no city or franchise is entitled to get a Cup. A lot of teams have had great teams for a long period and not won a Cup. I think right now the Sens have as much or more of a chance to win the Cup next season as any other team. And I am fine with that. I'd much rather be thinking about the Cup than whether we will make the playoffs or get the first overall pick.


Realistically Muckler's hands are tied. He can only do so much. Yeah It would be great if we could have traded for Luongo, resigned Chara and traded for Pronger and signed Elias and Sakic but that just isn't possible. We aren't the New York Yankees with no cap and a limitless payroll. I think fans fail to realize that to make a dealine deal you need a partner. Trades aren't as simple as making a proposal on the trade rumpour board. There isn't that many players available and there are limits to what you can get in trade. Muckler has kept the most talent possible in Ottawa for the longest period possible. He has given the Sens a chance to win every season and he seems to have given us a chance for 2 more seasons with his moves in the last few days. That is all you can ask. A legitimate chance to win. You can't guarantee a Cup win. Muckler can't go play the games, he can't force trades that don't exist, he can't make the salary cap $55 million. He can't add 3 veteran playoff vets that make $12 million by giving up $5 million worth of younger players.

All I want is a really good chance to win in the playoffs and exciting Hockey to watch. The Sens were the most exciting team I have ever seen live last season. I went to more games than every before and was more excited than ever before. More disappointed when we lost too, but quite optimistic for next season right now.

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07-04-2006, 07:51 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Kickabrat View Post
Of course you can voice an opinion, everybody can. But it gets ridiculous when no matter what Muckler does he gets critized. It is to the point now that he could sign Wayne Gretzky in his prime for minimum wage and people would be complaining that Muckler's a boob because he can't recognize that we have enough scoring and not enough grinders, or that how can Spezza get $4.5 when Gretzky is ony getting $0.5. No matter what he does he gets criticized, and why because we have not won a cup. Well excuse me but there are 26 other teams that have not won a cup in the last three years either. If the favourite won the cup all the time then there would be no point in playing the games. Everybody here wants the Sens to win a cup and soon, but I for one and very happy with the team and the fact that it is not being blown up. I like our team and players.
So with you on this. I had something similar typed up and i thought what's the point. Some people will never be happy with the team .. ever. I see that now. It's the off-season for christ sake, and it never ends.

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07-04-2006, 08:03 PM
  #63
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Fire Muckler!! Fire his rear!! Does he not know Mike Fisher goes muskie fishing with kittens?? He should be traded!! You need thicker glasses John!! Wake up!!

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07-04-2006, 08:15 PM
  #64
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I am not happy with pretty much any of his moves, because many of them are not very good (in hindsite and for the future). If a guy makes a bad move then he deserves to be critisised... doesn't that make sence, lol.

But there were plenty of GMs in Ottawa that did a very good job and didn't win a cup. I would not critise them. They improved the team every year. But when you start off with a team of Spezza, Havlat, Hossa, Alfredson, Redden, Chara and Phillips all young with low contracts. When you are given 3 seasons, the owner's confidence, an opportunity to bring in your coach... then you have a very good situation from which to work from. You have a better situation than pretty much any other GM. Any other GM in that position that fails to win a cup in those three years should be fired too. Maybe at best he could have only made the odds of the Sens winning a cup 1 in 4 in any given year and he got unlucky.

But so what? Those are the breaks. The better assumption is that his perception of what was wrong with our team was incorrect. Given our failings its time for us to go with that second assumption and if we are wrong then so be it. If it is all luck then hopefully whoever takes over will have better luck. Hoepfully he will have more luck getting players on multi-multi-year deals. Hopefully he will have more luck trading for players. Hopefully he will have more luck picking a competant coach.

Plus, Muckler knows that he failed and he doesn't know what to do so he is playing desperate. Anyone can see it. This is the guy who was all about grit and know it is obvious to everyone except a fair few loyal Muckler fans that grit wasn't this issue so he went after some offensive Dman. He has taken the exact opposite approach to goaltending this year too.

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07-04-2006, 08:19 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by champben2002 View Post
I am not happy with pretty much any of his moves, because many of them are not very good (in hindsite and for the future). If a guy makes a bad move then he deserves to be critisised... doesn't that make sence, lol.

But there were plenty of GMs in Ottawa that did a very good job and didn't win a cup. I would not critise them. They improved the team every year. But when you start off with a team of Spezza, Havlat, Hossa, Alfredson, Redden, Chara and Phillips all young with low contracts. When you are given 3 seasons, the owner's confidence, an opportunity to bring in your coach... then you have a very good situation from which to work from. You have a better situation than pretty much any other GM. Any other GM in that position that fails to win a cup in those three years should be fired too. Maybe at best he could have only made the odds of the Sens winning a cup 1 in 4 in any given year and he got unlucky.

But so what? Those are the breaks. The better assumption is that his perception of what was wrong with our team was incorrect. Given our failings its time for us to go with that second assumption and if we are wrong then so be it. If it is all luck then hopefully whoever takes over will have better luck. Hoepfully he will have more luck getting players on multi-multi-year deals. Hopefully he will have more luck trading for players. Hopefully he will have more luck picking a competant coach.

Plus, Muckler knows that he failed and he doesn't know what to do so he is playing desperate. Anyone can see it. This is the guy who was all about grit and know it is obvious to everyone except a fair few loyal Muckler fans that grit wasn't this issue so he went after some offensive Dman. He has taken the exact opposite approach to goaltending this year too.
Tired and bored? Yes of your relentless negativity.

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07-04-2006, 08:19 PM
  #66
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Well maybe when he does get fired you could get in there and show him how its done, eh chump?

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07-04-2006, 08:21 PM
  #67
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By the way, my list of grievances:
-Hiring Murray
-Most of the guys that he is brought in, with slight excerptions to Heatley and Smoke
-Trying to aquire grit when it really wasn't the biggest problem with our team
-Not signing our top players to long term contracts when it sounds like he could have
-Not making trades that helped us in the playoffs... and wasting some assets in the process
-Not making UFA signings to improve our team in past sesons (And making bad ones this year)
Of course, some of these things he may not have been able to do, but its a numbers game and I think that he just didn't do some when he had the opportunity.

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07-04-2006, 08:25 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by umma gumma View Post
Well maybe when he does get fired you could get in there and show him how its done, eh chump?
Oh sorry, Muckler is great, Muckler is great, let us all praise his godliness. If that is what you want to read then I suggest you just copy and repeatedly paste that into your computer (and then read it). Hey who am I to critisise what you want to do on your own time. But personally I want to actually discuss the Sens and simply constantly praising them really does not qualify as discussion.

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07-04-2006, 09:12 PM
  #69
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OK here's my rant, I've had just about enough of this.
Many thanks for this rant - glad to see that the moderate voices are starting to speak out against this wall of negativity that some people are throwing up. It's getting tiresome to say the least.

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07-04-2006, 09:16 PM
  #70
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But personally I want to actually discuss the Sens and simply constantly praising them really does not qualify as discussion.
And constantly dumping on them does?

Turn that frown upsidedown.

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07-04-2006, 09:16 PM
  #71
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Many thanks for this rant - glad to see that the moderate voices are starting to speak out against this wall of negativity that some people are throwing up. It's getting tiresome to say the least.
Let me just say that the ignore feature is a wonderful thing. I wonder what the point of being a fan is, if all you'll do is be critical. There must be something worthwile to praise.

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07-04-2006, 09:17 PM
  #72
nanuuq
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The easy way out is to always be critical and negative.
That way you always look right.

If you dont like what Mucks has done, then please
tell us once, but dont go beating a dead horse.

If you can get us better players, please, phone up
Mucks and tell him what to do. You obviously know
more about hockey then him, our coach and our scouts.

Myself, I liked what the team brought last year, a very exciting
and fired up season, great games to watch, and a nail biting
run in the playoffs. A few breaks and we would have been up
against Carolina.

And I will point out that Gretzky DID NOT WIN THE CUP
every year with every team he played on. EVEN with the oilers.

FURTHER, the new NHL with the cap and lower FA age is a whole new ball of wax and I think we need to wait 2-3 more years to see how this all shakes out.

You need to study the NFL and how teams have won the super bowl there under the CAP system. It aint pretty, It aint easy.

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07-04-2006, 09:23 PM
  #73
HF2002
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Originally Posted by bert View Post

Due to the spike in the salary cap this was the worst possible offseason to sign UFA's. It will never spike like this again, the reason it did was due to how grossly they underestimated revenues. Corvo was signed at market value but still not a great signing. Gerber was a good signing at a good price.

Doesn't the escrow account take care of this? So what if they over pay right now because the players don't see the money unless the revenue meets the standard. It's a nice little insurance policy for paying a little more for a guy who may not necessarily be worth it.

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07-04-2006, 09:56 PM
  #74
Kickabrat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HF2002 View Post
Doesn't the escrow account take care of this? So what if they over pay right now because the players don't see the money unless the revenue meets the standard. It's a nice little insurance policy for paying a little more for a guy who may not necessarily be worth it.
Maybe but the money does not go back to the teams that spend it. It goes to the 10 teams that spent the least in salaries. So if you overpay, chance are you are not one of the chosen 10. The player you overpaid loses, the owner loses because he overpaid with hard cash, and lost salary cap room. Not really a win win. But I agree that if the guy you really want can be had for an extra million then maybe. But then you see what mess the Devils are in and then maybe not.

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07-04-2006, 10:48 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by umma gumma View Post
And constantly dumping on them does?

Turn that frown upsidedown.
Well its hard when they have yet to address any of the probelms that I felt they had going into the offseason. If he had past success I might be more willing to accept Mucks differance in opinion.

Talking about bandwagons its BS how so many people ***** and complain about how I am a homer or how I pick on Sens players or that I constantly hate everything about the Sens or whatever. My opinions haven't really changed very much on any of these subjects, but I still have to read that crap.

I supported and cheared for Havlat, Redden, Spezza and Emery when most people dumped on them. Last year, (and I would say this year too) I said that Alfy, Spezza, Havlat and Heatley were all good bets for being top 10 scorers on the NHL page to cries of homerism. But when a team fails, you can't expect me to support moves by the GM to basically stay the course. There is alot of talent on the team and great players like Spezza, Heatley, Havlat, Alfy, Redden, Meszaros. Trimming the fat (Shaefer and Fisher) from the team and getting some speed, shots and experience could still go along way towards our success. I am still holding out some hope that Mucks gets canned, we get rid of the doornob on the bench and we make those changes to our team. It wouldn't take that much to put this team over the top with a slight change in direction.


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