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Chooch's Top 20 Players List

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Old
07-04-2006, 08:45 PM
  #1
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Chooch's Top 20 Players List

I saw my first game at the Forum in 1971, Dryden v. Dryden in nets, Crozier v. Bowman behind the benches, the Big M scoring a goal. I've seen and played way too much hockey since then, more than I should have, albeit primarily in Montreal and Toronto.

I have my preferences for divisions and the like as some of you may know but I try to be fair to players from all countries. I just didn't see a lot of Soviet players; Yakushev and Kharlamov and Mikhailov etc were seen for just brief moments that for a hockey fan ended way too soon.

Here's my Top 20 since 1971 - thats 35 years, based on sheer domination against top opponents and other criteria. Surprisingly, most players are from the Eastern division and are what can be rightfully considered as 2 way players. No guys who I would have yelled at had someone played with their style on my local rink. No Dionnes, Bossy's, Brett Hull's or Bure's or other one way/no checking guys on this list. Mostly centres, a few defencemen, a couple of wingers and goalies :

1. Mario Lemieux - was unstoppable in his prime like no other player; only player who is beyond reproach; was better at 36 in comeback year than any player on this list after #10 ever was.
2. Dominic Hasek - dominated 10 years like no goalie I saw; slight weirdo - not stable Ken Dryden type.
3. Bobby Orr - saw only 3-4 of great years and was unstoppable until Shero figured it out...
4. Jaromir Jagr - the complete package, size, moves, excitement, shot, passing, just misses out by dopey sulk; looks so so in dress.
5. Guy Lafleur; 7-8 glory years; right wing could pass, skate, stickhandle and shoot; team player never trolled for points. Clutch. Nureyev of ice. Short changed on salary.
6. Phil Esposito - was the best of the best in 72; proved doubters wrong he would flop sans Orr. Leader of leaders.
7. Patrick Roy - iceman at 20. Will win Adams trophy.
8. Ray Bourque - complete package for a dman like no other. All class like Larry.
9. Ken Dryden - never gave up a back breaker goal. Save on Marcotte - you know which game...Save on Pappin -you know which game...
10. Bryan Trottier - icy stare like Mourning (Messier copied), complete package was best centre after Espo until Mario.
11. Vlad Tretiak - household name at 20, would have had Roy type career. Unucky with glasnost too late.
12. Wayne Gretzky - nice hair.
13. Peter Stastny - dominated in all aspects of game; heart of lion, majestic leader. Need a tv movie on escape with bros.
14. Denis Potvin - smartest dman ever. brilliant shot. Unclassy way of ending careers with hip.
15. Larry Robinson - most respected dman ever after Orr. Shot, speed, passing, vision unparalleled for big man. Was fatigued by 33.
16. Bobby Clarke - Leader was brilliant passer and heart of a franchise; like an Yzerman with balls.
17. Mark Messier - Oil chose to keep 11 and dump 99. Won cup.
18. Brad Park - brilliantly skilled; hurt by arrogance..Mr Park I knew Orr, I went to school with Orr and you sir were no Orr.
19. Sergei Fedorov - as talented as anyone ever. Yes, ever.
20. Yvan Cournoyer - beep beep, scored clutch goals and was called The Train by ruskies. Looked to skate and shoot as soon as puck dropped.

H.M: Guy Lapointe and Pete Mahovlich, the best centre not in the Hall


Last edited by chooch*: 07-21-2006 at 10:49 PM. Reason: Added commentary
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07-04-2006, 09:36 PM
  #2
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Originally Posted by chooch View Post
I saw my first game at the Forum in 1971, Dryden v. Dryden in nets, Crozier v. Bowman behind the benches, the Big M scoring a goal. I've seen and played way too much hockey since then, more than I should have, albeit primarily in Montreal and Toronto.

I have my preferences for divisions and the like as some of you may know but I try to be fair to players from all countries. I just didn't see a lot of Soviet players; Yakushev and Kharlamov and Mikhailov etc were seen for just brief moments that for a hockey fan ended way too soon.

Here's my Top 20 since 1971 - thats 35 years, based on sheer domination against top opponents and other criteria. Surprisingly, most players are from the Eastern division and are what can be rightfully considered as 2 way players. No guys who I would have yelled at had someone played with their style on my local rink. No Dionnes, Bossy's, Brett Hull's or Bure's or other one way/no checking guys on this list. Mostly centres, a few defencemen, a couple of wingers and goalies :

1. Mario Lemieux
2. Dominic Hasek
3. Bobby Orr
4. Jaromir Jagr
5. Guy Lafleur
6. Phil Esposito
7. Patrick Roy
8. Ray Bourque
9. Ken Dryden
10. Bryan Trottier
11. Vlad Tretiak
12. Wayne Gretzky
13. Peter Stastny
14. Denis Potvin
15. Larry Robinson
16. Bobby Clarke
17. Mark Messier
18. Brad Park
19. Sergei Fedorov
20. Yvan Cournoyer

H.M: Guy Lapointe and Pete Mahovlich, the best centre not in the Hall
Aside from Gretzky being lower than he should be........ Surprise! That isn't a bad list. I'd put Coffey on the list for sure and take off Cournoyer. I'd like to put Kurri, Bossy and Hull onto the list but it is hard to think of anyone else to take off the list...

Good list.

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07-04-2006, 09:57 PM
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Jagr is #4 even after all that time he dogged it in Washington? And Jagr is not a 2-way player. Never has been. Makes the occasional defensive play so that people can marvel at him, but strictly by your criteria, Jagr has no business being where he is at and yet Gretzky is not even in the top 10.

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07-04-2006, 10:15 PM
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IMO, Jagr is too low on the list, and Messier is too high. Nice picks though.

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07-04-2006, 10:27 PM
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Jagr is #4 even after all that time he dogged it in Washington? And Jagr is not a 2-way player. Never has been. Makes the occasional defensive play so that people can marvel at him, but strictly by your criteria, Jagr has no business being where he is at and yet Gretzky is not even in the top 10.
Well if Wayne hadn't so callously ran over Chooch's dog while shooting a Ford commercial, he might be higher.

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07-04-2006, 10:29 PM
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Well if Wayne hadn't so callously ran over Chooch's dog while shooting a Ford commercial, he might be higher.
Thought it was his cat?

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07-04-2006, 10:47 PM
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It was definitely a dog, probably a French Poodle.

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07-04-2006, 11:14 PM
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All obvious Gretzky comments aside, I don't think Tretiak belongs on the list at all.

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07-05-2006, 12:06 AM
  #9
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no sakic???????????

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07-05-2006, 12:47 AM
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no sakic???????????
Sakic is not a top 20 player ever since 1971.

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07-05-2006, 12:47 AM
  #11
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I'd probably put Steve Yzerman on there, but I'm a big fan.

At least his teammates would never complain about him not getting back on defense, unlike the #1 on that list

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07-05-2006, 05:59 AM
  #12
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I'd probably put Steve Yzerman on there, but I'm a big fan.

At least his teammates would never complain about him not getting back on defense, unlike the #1 on that list
Sakic was/is a good leader but I never liked his style on the Nords and thats when I saw him play on tv 30 times a season.

I would have thought Iginla might be mentioned as a name missing from list.

Maybe Jagr didnt rush back on D but he's absorbing a lot of punishment for his team to score and even dishing it out occasionally. That means more to me than someone rushing back all the time like a Bob Gainey. Big Deal.

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07-05-2006, 06:49 AM
  #13
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Fedorov on the list leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. I feel he floated to many times. What about Forsberg in his place, or even Jari Kurri? Kurri was a solid defensive player, at least as he got older. I don't know if he neglected defense or not in his early years, I only remember the goals he scored.

I was pleased to see Stastny on the list, since he is incredibly underrated. Also liked seeing Hasek so high. I'd probably drop Lemieux a bit, he never impressed me defensively.

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07-05-2006, 12:36 PM
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12. Wayne Gretzky

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07-05-2006, 01:17 PM
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Maybe Jagr didnt rush back on D but he's absorbing a lot of punishment for his team to score and even dishing it out occasionally. That means more to me than someone rushing back all the time like a Bob Gainey. Big Deal.
I was referring to #1.

I saw him float at the redline so many times it was sickening.

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07-05-2006, 01:23 PM
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I was referring to #1.

I saw him float at the redline so many times it was sickening.
Indeed.

I remember watching him the old Winnipeg arena and it was like a staple of his game.

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07-05-2006, 02:23 PM
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yeah man! Crazy to me how the combo of Gretzky and Messier can possibly be lower than the Lemieux - Jagr duo. That just smells to me of BS.

Like if you go with a high defense value then Messier has to be higher than Lemieux and if you focus on scoring then Gretzky has to be higher than Lemieux...just not following your rating criteria...ultimately no matter how you weigh things one of Messier/Gretzky should be rated more highly than one of Lemieux/Jagr...

if you just didn't like their styles...well that is different.

But there is easily more depth of talent in Gretzky and Messier than in Lemieux and Jagr.

hope that makes sense.

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07-05-2006, 02:30 PM
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When Gretzky doesn't cut the top-10, you know the list is some bizarre joke from a demented mind.

That Fedorov makes the list over Yzerman completely invalidates it.

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07-05-2006, 02:30 PM
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yeah man! Crazy to me how the combo of Gretzky and Messier can possibly be lower than the Lemieux - Jagr duo. That just smells to me of BS.

Like if you go with a high defense value then Messier has to be higher than Lemieux and if you focus on scoring then Gretzky has to be higher than Lemieux...just not following your rating criteria...ultimately no matter how you weigh things one of Messier/Gretzky should be rated more highly than one of Lemieux/Jagr...

if you just didn't like their styles...well that is different.

But there is easily more depth of talent in Gretzky and Messier than in Lemieux and Jagr.

hope that makes sense.
Not from a choochian perspective.

Let me attempt to save our friend soem time here and tell you what he'll say...

Gretzky, that over protected, car shilling nancy boy floated more than any man ever. I've watched him play because i'm 78 and heck, he would literally stand at center waiting for the puck. Those backchecks you all saw repeatedly night after night were illusions put on by that showboating Circle du Soleil wanna-be.

Gretzky ans Messier got to play their little nancy boy run and gun style is the flaky western conference which is pretty much the equivalent of playing in a local Bantam league. No defense, terrible goalies.

Mario and Jagr basically had to claw their way up the rink because the Eastern Conference was worse than a WW2 trench fight. Nothing but tough defenses and brutal hitting. Gretzky would have about 12 career points if he played in the East. He only ever did well in cup finals against East teams because those teams had already been battered and beaten into submission by their conference foes...

I'm sure there's more but whatever, I'm tired of actually typing the message board equivalent of utter crap...

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07-05-2006, 02:42 PM
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It was definitely a dog, probably a French Poodle.
Was it one of those super fantastic ones with ribbons and bows like the renowned lockout pooch Anastasia Priscilla? I understand that with the proper pampering and pandering they can be quite a pet and that their owners can literally spend hours and thousands of dollars trying to 'out-pretty' each other.

If chooch really did have one of these pets and Wayne ran it over i can understand where he's coming from.. Otherwise, well..

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07-05-2006, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KariyaIsGod View Post
Not from a choochian perspective.

Let me attempt to save our friend soem time here and tell you what he'll say...

Gretzky, that over protected, car shilling nancy boy floated more than any man ever. I've watched him play because i'm 78 and heck, he would literally stand at center waiting for the puck. Those backchecks you all saw repeatedly night after night were illusions put on by that showboating Circle du Soleil wanna-be.

Gretzky ans Messier got to play their little nancy boy run and gun style is the flaky western conference which is pretty much the equivalent of playing in a local Bantam league. No defense, terrible goalies.

Mario and Jagr basically had to claw their way up the rink because the Eastern Conference was worse than a WW2 trench fight. Nothing but tough defenses and brutal hitting. Gretzky would have about 12 career points if he played in the East. He only ever did well in cup finals against East teams because those teams had already been battered and beaten into submission by their conference foes...

I'm sure there's more but whatever, I'm tired of actually typing the message board equivalent of utter crap...
that is hilarious!

I guess i see what you...er...he means.

Hey, to each his own...i just can't see any criteria** that could possibly rank Lemieux higher than BOTH Gretzky and Messier...much less Lemieux AND Jagr ahead of them.

** except for the above choochian 'logic'

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07-05-2006, 05:09 PM
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that is hilarious!

I guess i see what you...er...he means.

Hey, to each his own...i just can't see any criteria** that could possibly rank Lemieux higher than BOTH Gretzky and Messier...much less Lemieux AND Jagr ahead of them.

** except for the above choochian 'logic'

I see your point, but someone placing Lemieux ahead of Gretzky and Messier can definately have some validity. Lemieux didn't have the talent around him for the majority of the '80's that Gretzky did. Then he had cancer and then the dead puck era started. If the criteria happened to be pure talent as oppposed to numbers then I'm sure there are a great deal of knowledgeable fans that could make a case for Mario to be the greatest player of all time.

Just for the record, I consider Bobby Orr to be the best ever.

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07-05-2006, 05:53 PM
  #23
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I see your point, but someone placing Lemieux ahead of Gretzky and Messier can definately have some validity. Lemieux didn't have the talent around him for the majority of the '80's that Gretzky did. Then he had cancer and then the dead puck era started. If the criteria happened to be pure talent as oppposed to numbers then I'm sure there are a great deal of knowledgeable fans that could make a case for Mario to be the greatest player of all time.

Just for the record, I consider Bobby Orr to be the best ever.


Placing Lemieux and Orr about Gretzky is, to say the very least, reasonable.

Placing Jagr, Espo and Tretiak (among others) above Gretzky is, to say the very least, asshattery.

And where is Maurice Richard? EDIT: I'm a moron; it was since 1971.

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07-05-2006, 06:03 PM
  #24
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that is hilarious!

I guess i see what you...er...he means.

Hey, to each his own...i just can't see any criteria** that could possibly rank Lemieux higher than BOTH Gretzky and Messier...much less Lemieux AND Jagr ahead of them.

** except for the above choochian 'logic'
The criteria is probably "they play for a team that I like." Other possible criteria is "I hate it how player X is typically considered better than player Y, because player Y is my favourite player."

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07-05-2006, 06:12 PM
  #25
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I see your point, but someone placing Lemieux ahead of Gretzky and Messier can definately have some validity. Lemieux didn't have the talent around him for the majority of the '80's that Gretzky did. Then he had cancer and then the dead puck era started. If the criteria happened to be pure talent as oppposed to numbers then I'm sure there are a great deal of knowledgeable fans that could make a case for Mario to be the greatest player of all time.

Just for the record, I consider Bobby Orr to be the best ever.
But most of those are more myths than anything:

Mario has nearly as many Hall of Famers around him as Gretzky did. While his first couple years he was on an island, those were only a couple seasons. The vastmajority of his career was spent with the likes of Larry Murphy, Ron Francis, Jaromir Jagr, etc. Gretzky had his share of seasons on his own as well (like his first season(s) as well).

Gretzky actually played far more games in the dead puck era than Mario did. Mario spent most of the dead puck era retired. More so, Mario entered the league only 5 years after Gretzky, so it isn't like the two played in dramatically different eras.

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