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Chooch's Top 20 Players List

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Old
07-11-2006, 02:08 AM
  #51
nik jr
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Originally Posted by JCD View Post
As usual, you would be completely wrong.

Only time Fedorov was the Wing's top center is the season Yzerman got hurt. That is the year he won the Hart and a Selke. Once Yzerman was back, Fedorov was second fiddle again.
this isn't true. they were basically both #1's, like sakic forsberg. imo, fedorov was better than yzerman from 94 onwards, b/c of his 2-way play. fedorov did slack off in regular season in late 90's, tho.
don't forget that detroit was very close to trading yzerman in 95, b/c fedorov was better in playoffs and they thought he could replace yzerman.
that said, yzerman was clearly better.

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07-11-2006, 03:05 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by chooch View Post
Get a life, man.

Perhaps Forsberg could have been on the list. But he's injured so many times reminds me a little of lindros.

I've watched and studied them all and that top 6 of Lemieux at centre with lafleur and Jagr on wings with orr and add Bourque on D and Hasek in goal, would be unbeatable. They could play anybody anywhere anytime any set of rules.

Thats my criteria. No special rules, Mario would take all the punishment in the world and still dominate them all. And no, gReTzKy does not SuXoRz. He was a great player too.
Forsberg even an injured Forsberg is still capable of 70+ points a season. Forsberg would have dominated in any era of hockey so IMO he should be on the list same goes for Steve Yzerman.

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Old
07-11-2006, 09:12 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by ice berg slim View Post
Forsberg even an injured Forsberg is still capable of 70+ points a season. Forsberg would have dominated in any era of hockey so IMO he should be on the list same goes for Steve Yzerman.
Nope...

They both played in the "Western" Conference thus meaning that they were essentially competing in a women's league.

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07-11-2006, 10:12 AM
  #54
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Nope...

They both played in the "Western" Conference thus meaning that they were essentially competing in a women's league.
Agreed. This list is a joke.

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Old
07-11-2006, 10:40 AM
  #55
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The list is simply a way of trying to draw attention to how little he values Gretzky's abilities in the sport without coming right out and saying it.

However, seeing him that low, it's obvious where the majority of the conversation will revolve around.

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Old
07-11-2006, 02:05 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by RUSqueelin View Post
You can't actually take it seriously. I've read his response a couple of hundred times - Gretzky played in the weak West and not in the East where he would have got beat up by real men. Didn't you realize the only reason he racked up all those points was because of the conference he played in????? It's pure fallacy but hey, its sports, anybody can take person or event and shape their argument however they want to fit their opinion.

Apparently I have too much time on my hands sometimes but I actually read through complete 20 pages threads where he so passionately tryings to argue logic and fact with his own dwarfed opinion and bias. All his aruguments where debuffed in one way or another but it kept going around in circles. Like the stat proving that Gretzky actually averaged more points a game against eastern opponents then western opponents, the balanced scheduale in the early 80's etc etc. Yet, Wayne wouldn't have dominated in the East. Yep.

But hey, an opinion is an opinion. If someone wanted to put Domi on top of the list, are they wrong. Nope. It's their opinion.
No one takes him seriously. He does keep the history discussion going though, albeit in a roundabout way. I bet many kids dont know much about half the players on that list.

So even though its a goofy list thats obviously an attempt to further push his agenda of downplaying Gretzky's accomplishments (which he has hardly watched, but has somehow managed to form an opinion on), at least he's keeping history alive through discussion.

I find him humorous.

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Old
07-11-2006, 03:17 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by RUSqueelin View Post
You can't actually take it seriously. I've read his response a couple of hundred times - Gretzky played in the weak West and not in the East where he would have got beat up by real men. Didn't you realize the only reason he racked up all those points was because of the conference he played in????? It's pure fallacy but hey, its sports, anybody can take person or event and shape their argument however they want to fit their opinion.

Apparently I have too much time on my hands sometimes but I actually read through complete 20 pages threads where he so passionately tryings to argue logic and fact with his own dwarfed opinion and bias. All his aruguments where debuffed in one way or another but it kept going around in circles. Like the stat proving that Gretzky actually averaged more points a game against eastern opponents then western opponents, the balanced scheduale in the early 80's etc etc. Yet, Wayne wouldn't have dominated in the East. Yep.

But hey, an opinion is an opinion. If someone wanted to put Domi on top of the list, are they wrong. Nope. It's their opinion.
Agree with everything you've said, except for the last comment. Opinions can most certainly be wrong. The opinion that it is right to hate on the basis of skin color is wrong. The opinion that all women are only useful to humankind as mothers and housekeepers is wrong. The opinion that Domi is the best player of any era is wrong. And the opinion that Gretzky is 12th since 1971 is even more wrong.

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Old
07-11-2006, 03:33 PM
  #58
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As soon as I saw Gretzky 12th on that list I pretty much ignored it. To me Gretzky is the greatest player ever. He dominated the sport like no one else. To have Mario and orr ahead of him raises a bit of an eyebrow but it isnt outlandish a lot of people have either Mario, Orr or howe ahead of Gretzky. But Tretiak? And Statsny right behind Gretzky? No dissing Statsny a great, great player but he's not THAT close to Gretzky.

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Old
07-11-2006, 09:50 PM
  #59
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As soon as I saw Gretzky 12th on that list I pretty much ignored it. To me Gretzky is the greatest player ever. He dominated the sport like no one else. To have Mario and orr ahead of him raises a bit of an eyebrow but it isnt outlandish a lot of people have either Mario, Orr or howe ahead of Gretzky. But Tretiak? And Statsny right behind Gretzky? No dissing Statsny a great, great player but he's not THAT close to Gretzky.
Phil you can ignore those who disagree with your opinions and you can hurl all sorts of abuse when someone puts Gretzky at a "low" 12. Funny you can dish but not take.

I dont care to discuss 99 but wow do youguys have an obsession with him being #1. I just put up a list. There is a precedent for that kind of obsession - M Schumacher and his 7 world driving championships also won under circumstances like the 200 point seasons of and Harts of 99. I recall his teammate Irvine driving around in practices in 1997 trying to mess with Villeneuve's practicing; cutting him off etc. No other driver had that kind of asinine "support". I remember calling Irvine the Semenko of F1. Schumacher has 90 wins in F1, Villeneuve 11; but a serious fan knows they were equal as drivers.

btw Tretiak was a household name in Canada after an 8 game performance as a 20 year old. Do you know why? Just asking. He is legitimately ahead of the other names on that list. I saw him play maybe 40 times.

How many times did you see 99 play- 1000?

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Old
07-11-2006, 10:17 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by chooch View Post
Phil you can ignore those who disagree with your opinions and you can hurl all sorts of abuse when someone puts Gretzky at a "low" 12. Funny you can dish but not take.

I dont care to discuss 99 but wow do youguys have an obsession with him being #1. I just put up a list. There is a precedent for that kind of obsession - M Schumacher and his 7 world driving championships also won under circumstances like the 200 point seasons of and Harts of 99. I recall his teammate Irvine driving around in practices in 1997 trying to mess with Villeneuve's practicing; cutting him off etc. No other driver had that kind of asinine "support". I remember calling Irvine the Semenko of F1. Schumacher has 90 wins in F1, Villeneuve 11; but a serious fan knows they were equal as drivers.

btw Tretiak was a household name in Canada after an 8 game performance as a 20 year old. Do you know why? Just asking. He is legitimately ahead of the other names on that list. I saw him play maybe 40 times.

How many times did you see 99 play- 1000?
Just throwing this out there: Have you ever heard a comment or an interview from a former NHL player stating that he left Gretzky alone because he was scared of Semenko? It really makes no sense to me that NHL players would let Gretzky score 5 or 6 points a night because they were afraid that Semenko would hurt them. I don't buy that explanation for why Gretzky wasn't hit hard very often.

I believe it was his great peripheral vision and natural ability that kept him from being hit hard. Semenko might have protected Gretzky from cheap shots but not clean hits. In fact, the few times that Gretzky was cranked, I don't remember Semenko attacking anyone.

I would love to hear an NHL player say he didn't touch Gretzky because he was scared of Semenko. I don't think a player like that exists.


Last edited by Ogopogo*: 07-11-2006 at 10:24 PM.
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Old
07-12-2006, 02:04 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Just throwing this out there: Have you ever heard a comment or an interview from a former NHL player stating that he left Gretzky alone because he was scared of Semenko? It really makes no sense to me that NHL players would let Gretzky score 5 or 6 points a night because they were afraid that Semenko would hurt them. I don't buy that explanation for why Gretzky wasn't hit hard very often.

I believe it was his great peripheral vision and natural ability that kept him from being hit hard. Semenko might have protected Gretzky from cheap shots but not clean hits. In fact, the few times that Gretzky was cranked, I don't remember Semenko attacking anyone.

I would love to hear an NHL player say he didn't touch Gretzky because he was scared of Semenko. I don't think a player like that exists.
Actually, thats a good point. Everyone keeps talking about it, but is it just an urban myth? Were hockey players really that scared back then that they wouldnt hit Gretzky? Were hockey players back then really that wussy that they would let a guy get over 200 points season after season becasue they were too afraid to get beat up?

I guess for some people, its more believable to think that snipers hid on the roof to shoot anyone who would touch Gretzky, than to fathom that someone could dominate that much.

Funny thing is that Semenko's PIM during his years on the Oilers are 194, 172, 141, 141, 135, 118 and 80. League leaders were getting 275 minutes, 338 minutes, 358 minutes (I just picked 3 years for an example). Doesnt seem like a lot of PIM for someone who allegedly beats up anyone who touches Gretzky.

Plus Semenko's games played were 75, 69, 69, 67, 59, 58 and 52. The year Semenko played only 52 games, Gretzky still got 205 points. I guess Semenko is such a good bodyguard, he doesnt even have to be playing to help Gretzky get his points.

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Old
07-12-2006, 07:55 PM
  #62
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Schumacher has 90 wins in F1, Villeneuve 11; but a serious fan knows they were equal as drivers.
Are you serious? Villeneuve couldn't hold a candle to Schumacher, if anybody was the product of a team it was Jacques, if any drivers have a gripe with MS, its McLaren's Finns.

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Old
07-13-2006, 04:17 AM
  #63
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Sergei has a Hart (not a consolation Pearson), 120 points, a real Selke or 2 and is the fastest skater in the world in his prime. And he was tough. I dont think he was lined up behind anyone.

Izzerman was a lightweight.
I always did find it interesting that in 1989, the players felt that Steve Yzerman was the league MVP, and not 199 point Mario Lemieux.



As for the comments others have made about Gretzky and not getting hit, the old school instructional video that Gretzky made in 1986 (Wayne Gretzky: Hockey My Way) had an entire segment dedicated to him getting creamed with body checks. He even opened it up with a line talking about how people think he doesn't get body checked.

The thing about Gretzky, is that he was learning how to avoid dirty hits since he was a kid. When someone on the other team is scoring 10 goals on you in a single game, kids are going to take runs at him to hurt him.

The fact that he doesn't get hit much isn't because people were afraid of Dave Semenko (who admits himself that he can only remember coming to the defense of Gretzky twice in his career), but because he had the awareness and the skating ability to avoid hits. To get a solid body check on Gretzky, you had to catch him by surprise, which was not an easy thing to do.


Last edited by alanschu: 07-13-2006 at 04:36 AM.
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Old
07-13-2006, 05:25 AM
  #64
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Why isa everyone getting so worked up about a list so clearly designed to work people up?

And even then, if you're gonna get worked up, at least get pissed about the lack of Jimmy Carson!

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Old
07-13-2006, 08:04 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Just throwing this out there: Have you ever heard a comment or an interview from a former NHL player stating that he left Gretzky alone because he was scared of Semenko? It really makes no sense to me that NHL players would let Gretzky score 5 or 6 points a night because they were afraid that Semenko would hurt them. I don't buy that explanation for why Gretzky wasn't hit hard very often.

I believe it was his great peripheral vision and natural ability that kept him from being hit hard. Semenko might have protected Gretzky from cheap shots but not clean hits. In fact, the few times that Gretzky was cranked, I don't remember Semenko attacking anyone.

I would love to hear an NHL player say he didn't touch Gretzky because he was scared of Semenko. I don't think a player like that exists.
I don't buy it sorry- he was never slashed or hooked etc the periperhal vision thing is another myth. From my list:

1. Mario - slash by D Shaw who gets 12 game suspension; Sternum injury.
Slash by Adam Graves - broken wrist.
etc
3. Bobby Orr - numerous knee injuries from checks lncluding by Phil Roberto.
4. Jagr - numerous injuries from hits and slashes.
5. Lafleur - broken jaw from hit by Kyte 1990; slash by Sittler - broken thumb 1975, knee injury from Boutette 1980, Eye injury- stick from Simmer 1981.

I coudl go on: Morenz broken leg fatal, Richard numerous concussions etc, Howe concussion, Kharlamov ankle slashed, Esposito broken leg playoffs 75, etc etc etc

None would have flopped after a love tap from Billy Smith. Thats my point - it was a huge deal to hit 99; career threatening (that Leafs dman - i saw the hit live, that guy's legs were shaking when he went to the bench after he accidently knocked out 99, he never played another shift in the NHL). Conversely Mario was punished more than any player I ever saw. I saw a game at the Forum when little Mats Naslund submarined Mario and sent him flying. Mario threw him a hip check a few shifts later.

BTW which one is it:
alanschu wrote " the old school instructional video that Gretzky made in 1986 (Wayne Gretzky: Hockey My Way) had an entire segment dedicated to him getting creamed with body checks"... or what you wrote...??

Thanks for avoiding insults. See you on the other side.

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07-13-2006, 08:17 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by chooch View Post
I don't buy it sorry- he was never slashed or hooked etc the periperhal vision thing is another myth. From my list:

1. Mario - slash by D Shaw who gets 12 game suspension; Sternum injury.
Slash by Adam Graves - broken wrist.
etc
3. Bobby Orr - numerous knee injuries from checks lncluding by Phil Roberto.
4. Jagr - numerous injuries from hits and slashes.
5. Lafleur - broken jaw from hit by Kyte 1990; slash by Sittler - broken thumb 1975, knee injury from Boutette 1980, Eye injury- stick from Simmer 1981.

I coudl go on: Morenz broken leg fatal, Richard numerous concussions etc, Howe concussion, Kharlamov ankle slashed, Esposito broken leg playoffs 75, etc etc etc

None would have flopped after a love tap from Billy Smith. Thats my point - it was a huge deal to hit 99; career threatening (that Leafs dman - i saw the hit live, that guy's legs were shaking when he went to the bench after he accidently knocked out 99, he never played another shift in the NHL). Conversely Mario was punished more than any player I ever saw. I saw a game at the Forum when little Mats Naslund submarined Mario and sent him flying. Mario threw him a hip check a few shifts later.

BTW which one is it:
alanschu wrote " the old school instructional video that Gretzky made in 1986 (Wayne Gretzky: Hockey My Way) had an entire segment dedicated to him getting creamed with body checks"... or what you wrote...??

Thanks for avoiding insults. See you on the other side.
So, you believe that the entire NHL feared Semenko so much that they let Gretzky light them up every night - simply because Gretzky didn't have a serious injury during the 80?

I don't buy it. You admit to watching Gretz play only twice per year, I think you missed a few things.

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Old
07-13-2006, 09:09 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch View Post
I don't buy it sorry- he was never slashed or hooked etc the periperhal vision thing is another myth. From my list:

1. Mario - slash by D Shaw who gets 12 game suspension; Sternum injury.
Slash by Adam Graves - broken wrist.
etc
3. Bobby Orr - numerous knee injuries from checks lncluding by Phil Roberto.
4. Jagr - numerous injuries from hits and slashes.
5. Lafleur - broken jaw from hit by Kyte 1990; slash by Sittler - broken thumb 1975, knee injury from Boutette 1980, Eye injury- stick from Simmer 1981.I coudl go on: Morenz broken leg fatal, Richard numerous concussions etc, Howe concussion, Kharlamov ankle slashed, Esposito broken leg playoffs 75, etc etc etc

None would have flopped after a love tap from Billy Smith. Thats my point - it was a huge deal to hit 99; career threatening (that Leafs dman - i saw the hit live, that guy's legs were shaking when he went to the bench after he accidently knocked out 99, he never played another shift in the NHL). Conversely Mario was punished more than any player I ever saw. I saw a game at the Forum when little Mats Naslund submarined Mario and sent him flying. Mario threw him a hip check a few shifts later.

BTW which one is it:
alanschu wrote " the old school instructional video that Gretzky made in 1986 (Wayne Gretzky: Hockey My Way) had an entire segment dedicated to him getting creamed with body checks"... or what you wrote...??

Thanks for avoiding insults. See you on the other side.

Thank heavens Lafleur survived the goonery. Surely the only player injured that many times by such nefarious og's. The board of directors at Pfizer must breathe a collective sigh of relief when they realize how lucky they are.

Lucky so many players were able to get at the gentle giant Lemieux given that stats would indicate he spent most of his time floating around the other teams net like a moth on a flame, padding his stats by whooping it up on the powerplay.


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Old
07-13-2006, 11:48 PM
  #68
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Hear hear. I agree.

(Stevie Y, mentioned above)
Ron Francis?
Joe Sakic?
Peter Forsberg?
Marcel Dionne?
Adam Oates?
Brett Hull?

Instead chooch, you have Brad Park & Sergei Fedorov.

They really did have better drugs in the 70's.
If I was starting a team and could draft all these guys at 20 years old and keep them for 15 years I would definately take Park over Francis and depending on whether I was deeper on defence or offence over any of the other forwards on this list. Park was one of the best defenceman ever. He maybe is top 10 and is for sure in the top 15-20 without a doubt. How many of these forwards are top 20 All-time?

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07-13-2006, 11:59 PM
  #69
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Aside from Gretzky being lower than he should be........ Surprise! That isn't a bad list. I'd put Coffey on the list for sure and take off Cournoyer. I'd like to put Kurri, Bossy and Hull onto the list but it is hard to think of anyone else to take off the list...

Good list.
I am quoting myself.... This list impressed me as it was from Chooch and Gretzky was on the list. If you look at the list it is of only 20 players over a 35 year time frame. There are not many players that should not be there. He left off some great players but the list is only of 20 players. The only guy that really doesn't deserve to be there is Cournoyer. You can argue Fedorov shouldn't be there but at one time for a couple of seasons he might have been the best hockey player in the world.

Anyway any list of only the top 20 players over a 35 year period would draw criticism of those left off of it. Chooch went with 5 goalies including Tretiak and 5 defenceman. That leaves room for only 10 forwards. Some will disagree with some of his selections but he is getting more flak for this than he should becuase he is Chooch. Many other Posters would probably make a controvesial list as well. Chooch did a good job of representing players from the entire era as well and not bloating it with just one generation of players.

This isn't that bad a list.

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Old
07-14-2006, 12:40 AM
  #70
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It is incredible that someone as (relatively) slight in stature as Gretzky avoided major injuries. Lemieux and Jagr have much bigger builds, yet sustained many more injuries. No doubt the East was much more physical than the West. You could attribute it to Gretzky's skating and vision, but that seems a bit of a stretch to me.

I'd rank the forwards this way:
1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Jagr
4. Esposito
5. Lafleur

A couple of other points worth addressing:
- It's hard to rank anyone ahead of Gretzky based on accomplishment. However, in terms of talent, I don't disagree with Lemieux and Jagr (among others) being ahead of Gretzky.
- Orr would be top 3 IMO. I'd say his offensive numbers alone would put him at or near Lafleur's level.
- The most glaring omissions on the list to me are Yzerman and Sakic.
- Lemieux did rely on PP for a lot of his points. For example, in '95-'96 he won the Ross with 12 more points than Jagr, but Jagr had 22 more even-strength points. I believe Jagr also has already surpassed Lemieux in career even-strength goals.

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07-14-2006, 01:13 AM
  #71
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I think the most glaring ommission is Coffey. In my opinion Coffey was a better player than Yzerman, Sakic, Hull, Oates, Forsberg and Francis.

The only players who were better offensively for any kind of prolonged period of time in the last 35 years are Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Esposito and Jagr. Yes I'd put him at par or ahead of Hull and Dionne and Lafleur and Statsny and Yzerman offensively.

Coffey was a stupendous player and the best player besides Gretzky on the Oilers when he was there. Yes until he was traded to Pittsburgh he was better than Messier or Kurri on the Oilers. Coffey could do things that no one else could do except Orr. He had weaknesses in his game defensively in some seasons but he was a unique force in his generation. People remember him perhaps too much from his last seasons when he was a shell of himself but from 1981-1995 he was a unique and amazing force.

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Old
07-14-2006, 01:24 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by cup2006sensrule View Post
I think the most glaring ommission is Coffey. In my opinion Coffey was a better player than Yzerman, Sakic, Hull, Oates, Forsberg and Francis.

The only players who were better offensively for any kind of prolonged period of time in the last 35 years are Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Esposito and Jagr. Yes I'd put him at par or ahead of Hull and Dionne and Lafleur and Statsny and Yzerman offensively.

Coffey was a stupendous player and the best player besides Gretzky on the Oilers when he was there. Yes until he was traded to Pittsburgh he was better than Messier or Kurri on the Oilers. Coffey could do things that no one else could do except Orr. He had weaknesses in his game defensively in some seasons but he was a unique force in his generation. People remember him perhaps too much from his last seasons when he was a shell of himself but from 1981-1995 he was a unique and amazing force.
Good call, didn't notice Coffey's omission.

I would:

Omit- Tretiak, Cournoyer, Stastny, Fedorov
Add- Sakic, Yzerman, Coffey, Brodeur


Last edited by Czech Your Math: 07-14-2006 at 01:30 AM. Reason: added Brodeur
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07-14-2006, 09:29 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by cup2006sensrule View Post
I am quoting myself.... This list impressed me as it was from Chooch and Gretzky was on the list. If you look at the list it is of only 20 players over a 35 year time frame. There are not many players that should not be there. He left off some great players but the list is only of 20 players. The only guy that really doesn't deserve to be there is Cournoyer. You can argue Fedorov shouldn't be there but at one time for a couple of seasons he might have been the best hockey player in the world.

Anyway any list of only the top 20 players over a 35 year period would draw criticism of those left off of it. Chooch went with 5 goalies including Tretiak and 5 defenceman. That leaves room for only 10 forwards. Some will disagree with some of his selections but he is getting more flak for this than he should becuase he is Chooch. Many other Posters would probably make a controvesial list as well. Chooch did a good job of representing players from the entire era as well and not bloating it with just one generation of players.

This isn't that bad a list.
The list is that bad.

It was made to knock Wayne Gretzky...

That's it...

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Old
07-14-2006, 10:55 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by cup2006sensrule View Post
If I was starting a team and could draft all these guys at 20 years old and keep them for 15 years I would definately take Park over Francis and depending on whether I was deeper on defence or offence over any of the other forwards on this list. Park was one of the best defenceman ever. He maybe is top 10 and is for sure in the top 15-20 without a doubt. How many of these forwards are top 20 All-time?
They are all near the top 20 All-Time Forwards imo.
Hull - 3rd A-T Goals
Dionne - 5th A-T Points, 4th A-T Goals
Francis - 2nd A-T Assists, 4th A-T Points
Sakic - Currently 11th A-T points amd 15 A-T Assists, but could easliy be 10th and 11th by end of '06-'07
Forsberg - has a ppg avg. of 1.275. Sakic 1.20, Dionne 1.31, Messier 1.07, Francis 1.04

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Old
07-14-2006, 02:01 PM
  #75
Sens Rule
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Originally Posted by charlio lemieux View Post
They are all near the top 20 All-Time Forwards imo.
Hull - 3rd A-T Goals
Dionne - 5th A-T Points, 4th A-T Goals
Francis - 2nd A-T Assists, 4th A-T Points
Sakic - Currently 11th A-T points amd 15 A-T Assists, but could easliy be 10th and 11th by end of '06-'07
Forsberg - has a ppg avg. of 1.275. Sakic 1.20, Dionne 1.31, Messier 1.07, Francis 1.04
Top 20 forwards ever? Francis should not even be mentioned. He had a great career and it was very long but he is not even near being top 20 ever, maybe in the top 50 or 60 but maybe not. Brett Hull is a top 20 goal scorer for sure. But top 20 in overall forwards? I'm not sure. Dionne is very underrated for his career but if he is top 20 it is at the end of the top 20. I don't think Sakic is top 20 nor Forsberg.

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