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Old
07-05-2006, 12:41 AM
  #51
loadie
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Originally Posted by Diesel View Post
Well I'm pleased to see that I at least started an honest to goodness discussion with this thread. Some people hated the proposal but just as many or more think that its fair. I'll take that as a compliment. Its all moot, though, because at the end of the day Simon Gagne is going to sign a long term contract with the orange and black. And that, I think, is the best possible scenerio for the Flyers.
I hope they do it soon then, I'm tired of defending your trade proposal. I have to get some sleep.

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07-05-2006, 12:52 AM
  #52
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My trade idea was:

To Mon: Gagne and Carter
To Phi: Souray, Kostitsyn, Price and 1st rounder

I innitially had Perezhogin in the deal but many felt it would be too much!

Helps both teams because the Flyers have very few impact wingers in their system and have no goaltending for the future. The Habs have no top line centers for the future but have a plethora of wingers who can most likely turn into game breakers.

Is Kostitsyn and Price worth giving up for Carter? Talent wise, Kostitsyn is going to be awesome. Price is a future #1. But the Habs have no Carter's in their system!

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07-05-2006, 01:17 AM
  #53
BOB the Builder
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I personaly think that gagne should bring back the same kind of package as what the Avalanches got for Tanguay..which looks like this

"Minutes prior to the No. 1 overall selection at Saturday's NHL entry draft, the Calgary Flames general manager/coach landed Colorado left winger Alex Tanguay for 25-year-old defenceman Jordan Leopold, Calgary's second round selection (59th overall) in the draft and a conditional second round pick in 2007 or 2008."

One ready for NHL prospect (Kost or Perez..I would give Perezhogin 20 times before I give up Kost) and two picks..

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07-05-2006, 01:29 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by loadie View Post
Sorry, but I think your throwing out a few names, which I'll call Red herrings for now. Where in the world did Frolik come from? Yes, I'd trade Frolik for Gagne, everyday of the week, and twice on Sunday. To support my argument, you state that Kosts is almost as developed as Frolik. Frolik was drafted this year, but yet Kosts is almost as developed as Frolik? I totally understand your wanting to keep both players. I just feel it's a mistake if the opportunity to grab a Gagne comes up, because we wouldn't give up someone that "Might" become good.
Reread.

I said Kostitsyn is a Frolik nearly developped.(Meaning frolik in 3 years, clouds less.) Why I compared the two? Because both started their respective draft year pretty high in the rankings and slides a bit(for various reasons), but keeping their high ceiling. Kostitsyn today is developped and seem to have overcome everything he needed to so now he can become a very successfull NHLer, no more clouds over his head, its time to throw him in there and let him play.


Last edited by SOLR: 07-05-2006 at 01:35 AM.
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07-05-2006, 01:39 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsy View Post
My trade idea was:

To Mon: Gagne and Carter
To Phi: Souray, Kostitsyn, Price and 1st rounder

I innitially had Perezhogin in the deal but many felt it would be too much!

Helps both teams because the Flyers have very few impact wingers in their system and have no goaltending for the future. The Habs have no top line centers for the future but have a plethora of wingers who can most likely turn into game breakers.

Is Kostitsyn and Price worth giving up for Carter? Talent wise, Kostitsyn is going to be awesome. Price is a future #1. But the Habs have no Carter's in their system!
I dont think they need Price. (of course everyone would like to have him, but Nittimaki is their future) They need a starter now. And Carter, I'm not sure, I was a bit cold about him after the season. He got somethings, but I think Kost with the same opportunities in phily would have done better. Thats my speculative opinion.

Plus Carter is like Kost "cant touch this!".

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07-05-2006, 06:35 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by NewHabsArea View Post
I wouldnt trade Kostitsyn for Gagné straight up, too risky.


don't trade a prospect like Kessel for Gagné I could understand. But not trading a good prospect who doesn't seem to put it all together for a star like Gagné is just insane. I know it's hockey's future, but come on!!! we'll never win if we keep all our prospect and don'T get star players.

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07-05-2006, 07:53 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Ryderama View Post


don't trade a prospect like Kessel for Gagné I could understand. But not trading a good prospect who doesn't seem to put it all together for a star like Gagné is just insane. I know it's hockey's future, but come on!!! we'll never win if we keep all our prospect and don'T get star players.
Do you remember the reaction from some when Balej was traded to acquire Kovalev.
Some thought we had emptied the vault.

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07-05-2006, 07:57 AM
  #58
Melvin Udall
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Canadiens could have had Carter, they took Kostitsyn instead immediately ahead of
Carter. Kostitsyn is expected to be the Habs next "game breaker" according to Trevor Timmins, right now he is looking (with 18 goals in the AHL) more like a bust than a game breaker!

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07-05-2006, 08:46 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Artie View Post
Do you remember the reaction from some when Balej was traded to acquire Kovalev.
Some thought we had emptied the vault.
Theres absolutely no comparision between Balej and Kostitsyn.

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07-05-2006, 08:47 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Ryderama View Post


don't trade a prospect like Kessel for Gagné I could understand. But not trading a good prospect who doesn't seem to put it all together for a star like Gagné is just insane. I know it's hockey's future, but come on!!! we'll never win if we keep all our prospect and don'T get star players.
John Leclair? We had many stars in in 1990's that we traded for nothing.

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07-05-2006, 09:00 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by ND Irish View Post
Canadiens could have had Carter, they took Kostitsyn instead immediately ahead of
Carter. Kostitsyn is expected to be the Habs next "game breaker" according to Trevor Timmins, right now he is looking (with 18 goals in the AHL) more like a bust than a game breaker!
The bulldogs was a team for the habs and the oilers, Kost was called up 2 or 3 times, therefore, he was always reinserted on the 3rd, 2nd line instead of being a clintch first liner. My trust is in Timmins from what I have seen, Kost can score more pts in the NHL this year than in the AHL last year.

Kost is more ready this summer than Higgins was last summer. Higgins got a little 6 more pts in a complete AHL year with Thomas Pleckanec on his line nearly all year. Beside, AHL stats are very often not representative of the NHL performance level.

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07-05-2006, 09:01 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by loadie View Post
As for Simon Gagne, I'd do the original deal in an heartbeat. Only on HF boards do players with potential have more worth than bonified stars, which Gagne is, Forsberg or not. He's only 26 yrs old, and only now reaching his prime. As for the cap hit, Jesus, all I've read in the threads has been whining about wanting BG to sign a UFA, any UFA it seems. Money be damned. Gagne is the real deal, and someone that I would love to see in a Habs jersey. We become much better overnight with this move.
My exact thought.

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07-05-2006, 09:05 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Diesel View Post
Flyers fan here. Clarke seems to be having a little trouble signing Gagne. I still think a deal will eventually get done, but its fun to throw this sort of thing out there. how about Gagne for Perezhogin, Kostitsyn, and a 2nd rounder next year?
I would do it in a second if Gagne is signed for 5 years.

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07-05-2006, 09:13 AM
  #64
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I'd do the original offer of Kost+Perez+2nd. Now, I really don't think Gagne is a natural scorer, however, and he might not outscore either one of Kost or Perez down the road once they get rolling. So it will eventually start to look like a controversial trade when Gagne has 25-goal seasons and those kids are passing him by.

But it does mitigate the risk that they end up as busts, and it does give us some more immediate help that we need.

On the otherhand, I think that Gagne may be a contentious player to retain longterm. His contribution may always be less than his perceived market value, and if he's a $4-5M player scoring 20-30 goals, then I think we might run into trouble. And he'll be UFA whenever his next contract is up. Perhaps there will also always be a team out there who thinks he can recapture his 40+-goal days with Forsberg and will either drive up the price or steal him outright. So it's definitely a risky deal to envision.

At any rate, there is no need to complicate it by adding Carters or goalie prospects or anything like that. Clarke may not even have any reason to trade Gagne. But he certainly has no motive whatsoever to start growing it beyond that.

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07-05-2006, 09:14 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Theres absolutely no comparision between Balej and Kostitsyn.
do you always miss people's points? That's what he's saying. Imagine the furor around here if we dealt a top prospect Kosty after the way some reacted about losing a second-rater prospect like Balej.

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07-05-2006, 09:18 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Theres absolutely no comparision between Balej and Kostitsyn.
I'm not comparing the 2 but comparing the situation of trading prospects for established NHL'ers.

I have said before, we can't just dismiss all ideas of trading prospects. I'm not advocating the trading of prospects just for the sake of trading, but if you have an opportunity to add a Gagne then you have to at least consider it. You can't just keep spinning your wheels in a state of perpetual rebuilding.

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07-05-2006, 09:21 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Diesel View Post
Flyers fan here. Clarke seems to be having a little trouble signing Gagne. I still think a deal will eventually get done, but its fun to throw this sort of thing out there. how about Gagne for Perezhogin, Kostitsyn, and a 2nd rounder next year?
Perezhogin, Zednik (we just need to throw him out in there ) and a 1st. We can add Ribeiro and a picture of Jan Bulis on his bike if you like.

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07-05-2006, 10:05 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
do you always miss people's points? That's what he's saying. Imagine the furor around here if we dealt a top prospect Kosty after the way some reacted about losing a second-rater prospect like Balej.
I can miss points, never pretented to be a suparhuman
Yes there would be furor, but in this case it would be justified.

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07-05-2006, 10:08 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Artie View Post
I'm not comparing the 2 but comparing the situation of trading prospects for established NHL'ers.

I have said before, we can't just dismiss all ideas of trading prospects. I'm not advocating the trading of prospects just for the sake of trading, but if you have an opportunity to add a Gagne then you have to at least consider it. You can't just keep spinning your wheels in a state of perpetual rebuilding.
Im all for trading prospect, however theres a difference in trading an expandable prospect and the one seen as the best in the last 20 years. Talk to Toronto about trading prospects and being such loosers. Trading your Kostitsyns for some Gagnés, thats how your always in a state of rebuilding.(Im inclined to return to the John Leclair example.)

1) Good Draft
2) Good Developpement
3) Trade your expandable assets
4) UFA
5) Gamble Trade<-----

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07-05-2006, 10:11 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Im all for trading prospect, however theres a difference in trading an expandable prospect and the one seen as the best in the last 20 years. Talk to Toronto about trading prospects and being such loosers. Trading your Kostitsyns for some Gagnés, thats how your always in a state of rebuilding.

1) Good Draft
2) Good Developpement
3) Trade your expandable assets
4) UFA
5) Gamble Trade<-----
You're saying Kostitsyn is our best prospect of the past 20 years?

No wonder you're so against trading him. You might want to allow for other people's opinions if you're taking so extreme a position.

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07-05-2006, 10:17 AM
  #71
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You're saying Kostitsyn is our best prospect of the past 20 years?

No wonder you're so against trading him. You might want to allow for other people's opinions if you're taking so extreme a position.
Uhh, Did I critize anyone for going against my opinion? Don't be so quick at saying im against other people opinions, this is an honest discussion without ************ or personnal attacks thus far I think.(More me trying to say why we shouldnt do it, devil's advocate stylez )

Beside that Kostitsyn evaluation does not come from me, many other HFboarder said the same and it got me thinking. And I somewhat agree that Kostitsyn got that special star potential. (Patrick Roy is that 20 years ago dude...) Thus far its just potential, the jury will be out for him in the next 3 years in the NHL. All im saying is, why not gamble on him. And trade other expandable assets that we have anyway?!

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07-05-2006, 10:21 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Uhh, Did I critize anyone for going against my opinion? Don't be so quick at saying im against other people opinions, this is an honest discussion without ************ or personnal attacks thus far I think.

Beside that Kostitsyn evaluation does not come from me, many other HFboarder said the same and it got me thinking. And I somewhat agree that Kostitsyn got that special star potential. (Patrick Roy is that 20 years ago dude...) Thus far its just potential, the jury will be out for him in the next 3 years in the NHL. All im saying is, why not gamble on him. And trade other expandable assets that we have anyway?!
Saku Koivu was rated far higher as a prospect than Kostitsyn. As a prospect, Koivu was once regarded as the best player in the World not in the NHL.

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07-05-2006, 10:25 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Saku Koivu was rated far higher as a prospect than Kostitsyn. As a prospect, Koivu was once regarded as the best player in the World not in the NHL.
Very true. It made the Journal de Montreal front page when he arrived in Montreal with Marko Kiprusoff.

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Old
07-05-2006, 10:28 AM
  #74
SOLR
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Saku Koivu was rated far higher as a prospect than Kostitsyn. As a prospect, Koivu was once regarded as the best player in the World not in the NHL.
Yes but he wasnt ever a 50 goal scorer prospect. That elusive scorer we have been searching for 2 decades.(More like 3 ! Guy Lafleur.)

The only reason Kost is not regarded as the best player in the World not in the NHL is simple.

1) Lockout, creating a back log of talent.
2) The 2000-2009 class of players seems much stronger than the 1990-1999. Before anyone go bezerk: the 80's produced 2 generational talents, the 90's 0, and we have already one in the 2ks, and many superstars in the making. The 90's produced a lot of good players but very few exceptional ones.

Once again Kost could be a Patrick Lebeau, I'm just saying to this day, he got that very high ceiling potential more in the Kovalchuk league.


Last edited by SOLR: 07-05-2006 at 10:53 AM.
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07-05-2006, 10:28 AM
  #75
Artie
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Im all for trading prospect, however theres a difference in trading an expandable prospect and the one seen as the best in the last 20 years. Talk to Toronto about trading prospects and being such loosers. Trading your Kostitsyns for some Gagnés, thats how your always in a state of rebuilding.(Im inclined to return to the John Leclair example.)

1) Good Draft
2) Good Developpement
3) Trade your expandable assets
4) UFA
5) Gamble Trade<-----
Expendable assets will not get you Gagne type players. Now it may just be that you value Kost a lot more than I do. Our philosophies differ to a slight degree. I would be tempted to do it, you are not. That's okay.

The Leclair example is not entirely the same thing. Kosts has not proven yet that he can play at the NHL level. Leclair had. IMO adding Desjardins to that deal was what made it a dumb deal.

The Toronto example is not very good. They traded their prospects for established veterans when they thought thay had a legitimate shot at the cup. Most of those deals were deadline deals. Not to mention that the philosophy from (IMHO) Pat Quinn was not youth oriented.

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