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Old
11-09-2003, 08:13 AM
  #1
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Mike Keenan

Now that he is available, do you think that he would be a good fit in Toronto and do you think JF will go after him to replace Quinn?

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11-09-2003, 08:46 AM
  #2
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I wouldn't, but that's me. He's too controversial for my liking. He'd alienate half the team, I'm guessing. Starting with Sundin and working his way down the depth chart.

I'd rather just wait for Quinn's contract to expire. Joel Quennville would be my top pick at that time. Coaches a strong transition game, like Quinn, but employs does so from a modern aspect. As well, he has a solid defensive system. Like Quinn, he's also a player's coach. I believe his contract expires at the same time as well.

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11-09-2003, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icewind Dale
I'd rather just wait for Quinn's contract to expire. Joel Quennville would be my top pick at that time. Coaches a strong transition game, like Quinn, but employs does so from a modern aspect. As well, he has a solid defensive system. Like Quinn, he's also a player's coach. I believe his contract expires at the same time as well.
excellent...........

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11-09-2003, 09:57 AM
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Pass on mad mike.

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11-09-2003, 10:05 AM
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I'll sign him up (at the end of this season IF the leafs dont win the cup).

He brought the Rangers to the promise land, he could do the same for the buds?

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11-09-2003, 10:06 AM
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BTW, hes like the second winningist coach in the league right behind Scott Bowman no?

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11-09-2003, 10:30 AM
  #7
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He gets results for a short time, before alienating most of the team, that much is without doubt but he's too controversial for my liking.

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11-09-2003, 11:10 AM
  #8
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To answer the first post: no and no.

Keenan's act won't wash with a veteran squad like the Leafs - especially one that has been reared on the player-friendly style of Quinn. Many of them have been around too long and had too much success to watch his 'scare-you-into-playing' routine without saying, "Yeah, but why should I be afraid of you?" Can you imagine the emotional leaders on this club (Roberts, Neiuwendyk, Sundin, Mogilny) putting up with that loud-mouth for more than about 5 seconds? I can't. It just doesn't suit any of them. Mogs, Joe, and Mats lead by quiet respect and measured words, and Roberts doesn't take **** - think he would take Keenan's **** at this stage in his career? I doubt it.

Because of this, the answer to the second question is also 'no'. Moreover, there is no indication that JFJ is unhappy with Quinn. There may be some in the MLSE upper brass who don't like Quinn, but I don't get the feeling JFJ is onside.

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11-09-2003, 11:19 AM
  #9
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he'd be perfect for the ny strangers
ps: why was he fired

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11-09-2003, 11:25 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p.l.f.
he'd be perfect for the ny strangers
ps: why was he fired
Cause dudley is a tool....

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11-09-2003, 02:56 PM
  #11
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They said that Keenan wouldn't do great with the Rangers cause they felt that Mark Messier wouldn't put up with Keenan's BS but he proved everybody wrong and helped them to win the Stanley Cup.......say what you will about Keenan but the man has a winning record in the NHL behind the bench and being from Toronto he's ALWAYS wanted to coach the Maple Leafs.........I personally feel it would be a perfect fit..........

How long now has Quinn been with the Leafs?........all that time with the Leafs and what have the Leafs to show for it?..........ZERO Stanley Cups PLUS an early exit from the playoffs last season.........It's time to let Pat Quinn go and bring in someone else with some new ideas.......

Keenan also has a way of bringing out the best in players........players might hate his tactics like Roenick when he was in Chicago BUT even Roenick admits now when looking back that Iron Mike helped to bring out the best in his game early on in his NHL career with the Chicago Blackhawks.

Cheers!~

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11-09-2003, 03:23 PM
  #12
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Fire Quinn

Hire Keenan for the rest of the year (kind of coach the Leafs need)

After the strike hire a coach with a good record of working with young players.

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11-09-2003, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
Fire Quinn

Hire Keenan for the rest of the year (kind of coach the Leafs need)

After the strike hire a coach with a good record of working with young players.
Sluggo.........

Agreed..........He would be great for the short-term at least........I honestly feel that if the Leafs don't win the Cup this season that they will switch gears and go with more of the youth movement.....so Fire Quinns A$$ now and replace him with Iron Mike.....that's what I say.

Cheers!~

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11-09-2003, 03:33 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey_00


Keenan also has a way of bringing out the best in players........players might hate his tactics like Roenick when he was in Chicago BUT even Roenick admits now when looking back that Iron Mike helped to bring out the best in his game early on in his NHL career with the Chicago Blackhawks.

Cheers!~

monkey_00
The key there is "early in his career".Its young guys that Keenan can temporarily motivate or destroy.

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11-09-2003, 03:33 PM
  #15
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IMO, the leafs need more of a strategist than a motivator. We've allready got a so-called motivator, although I don't think he's very good.

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11-09-2003, 03:34 PM
  #16
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Sluggo.............

..................and then if the Leafs don't win we Fire Keenan's A$$ and replace him with Ken Dryden's buddy Larry Robinson.........that's what I say.

Cheers!~

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11-09-2003, 03:37 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaflover
The key there is "early in his career".Its young guys that Keenan can temporarily motivate or destroy.
leaflover........

You're forgetting that when Keenan won the Cup with the Rangers they were stacked with many of the veterans that came over from the Edmonton Oilers dynasty team and they were still able to win the Cup with Keenan behind the bench.

Cheers!~

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11-09-2003, 03:59 PM
  #18
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"He gets results for a short time, before alienating most of the team, that much is without doubt but he's too controversial for my liking"

Wasn't Belfour considered a controversial goalie when the Leafs signed him? Hes worked out great for the Leafs (not dressing rooms destoried yet). Keenans alittle controversial, bring it on. A season of controvery would at least make the sports sections more interesting.

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11-09-2003, 04:51 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
"He gets results for a short time, before alienating most of the team, that much is without doubt but he's too controversial for my liking"

Wasn't Belfour considered a controversial goalie when the Leafs signed him? Hes worked out great for the Leafs (not dressing rooms destoried yet). Keenans alittle controversial, bring it on. A season of controvery would at least make the sports sections more interesting.
sluggo.........

Agreed..........Having said that I'd like to see the Leafs first try and talk Scotty Bowman into coaching their hockey club.

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11-09-2003, 09:26 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey_00
They said that Keenan wouldn't do great with the Rangers cause they felt that Mark Messier wouldn't put up with Keenan's BS but he proved everybody wrong and helped them to win the Stanley Cup.......say what you will about Keenan but the man has a winning record in the NHL behind the bench and being from Toronto he's ALWAYS wanted to coach the Maple Leafs.........I personally feel it would be a perfect fit..........

How long now has Quinn been with the Leafs?........all that time with the Leafs and what have the Leafs to show for it?..........ZERO Stanley Cups PLUS an early exit from the playoffs last season.........It's time to let Pat Quinn go and bring in someone else with some new ideas.......

Keenan also has a way of bringing out the best in players........players might hate his tactics like Roenick when he was in Chicago BUT even Roenick admits now when looking back that Iron Mike helped to bring out the best in his game early on in his NHL career with the Chicago Blackhawks.

Cheers!~

monkey_00
I'll tell you what the leafs have to show for it. A trip to the semi finals 2 years ago and almost a regular birth to the second round of the playoffs. Over 90 points every season and the first 100 point season in team history. Quinn helped bring in all these young prospects we have and really for the most part refused to give up on them or mortage the future, if you will, in trades that may have benefited at a certian time but would hurt this team in the long run. And Quinn also brought in some great Free agents that have rounded out this team to what it is today. So I think the question you should be asking is what didn't he bring? Well he didn't bring a stanley cup to Toronto while he was gm but he did lay some great ground work for JF and when you look at it over the past 10 years it's been between the same 3 teams (Redwings 3 times, Devils 3 times, Colorado 2 times, Dallas 1 time, and Rangers 1 time) thats 8 cups between 3 teams over the past 10 years, so it's not like it's a different team every season and the leafs are just missing out. These teams have been great through out the years and have had the frame work with prospects and players already on the team just comming into there own. Toronto and Pat Quinn never had that luxury. The team was basically gutted after the Gilmour years missing the playoffs and not having all that much hope for the future as the prospects pool was bare and the team looked bad except for the odd bright spots. So my question to you is how has Quinn done a bad job with this franchise and how can you lay this much blame on the man when 25 teams including our beloved maple leafs have failed to lay clame to lord Stanley. All this talk about blowing the team up and starting over is IMO a load of *horse ***** and no offence but what would this team have to gain from doing something like that. And so what if we lose in the first round this year? Is it really that bad to cheer for your team in the post season? I know it sucks when we don't win but hey thats hockey some times you win some times you don't. I think some of the older fans would agree with what I am saying or atleast I would think they would in that no-one want's to go through another rebuilding phaze when we already have some nice young talent in the system that will be ready to step up and help out the big club in 2-3 years. So why do some of you feel in the meen time having a competitive team is so bad? Atleast they give us something to cheer about while the youth develops. The only way this team is going to get blown up is if by the deadline we have no hope of making the play-offs. And get serious, thats not likely to happen. err I am just rambling now but this really erks me... I don't see why you people would even say stuff like this. And don't even get me started on Keenan, the guy is a complete ass.

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11-09-2003, 10:00 PM
  #21
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"Over 90 points every season and the first 100 point season in team history"

Remember too, before Quinn took over the team was in the West, moving the east certainly helped the Leafs record. And 100 point seasons don't win you the cup.

"Quinn helped bring in all these young prospects we have and really for the most part refused to give up on them or mortage the future, if you will, in trades that may have benefited at a certian time but would hurt this team in the long run"

He also traded away all the young players who would really be helping the Leafs today for either nothing or older vet. players who havn't brought a cup to Toronto and a lot of them are injuried a lot of the time.

"All this talk about blowing the team up and starting over is IMO a load of *horse ***** and no offence but what would this team have to gain from doing something like that. And so what if we lose in the first round this year? Is it really that bad to cheer for your team in the post season? I know it sucks when we don't win but hey thats hockey some times you win some times you don't. I think some of the older fans would agree with what I am saying or atleast I would think they would in that no-one want's to go through another rebuilding phaze when we already have some nice young talent in the system that will be ready to step up and help out the big club in 2-3 years. So why do some of you feel in the meen time having a competitive team is so bad?"

They aren't going to win cup, they aren't good enough and its a pretty safe bet that at least one of the Leafs star players will hurt going into this years playoffs (its a realility when all your star players are 31-37 years old). So they have 3 options. 1) Trade away their prospects for the players they need to win now. 2) Blow up the team and build for the future. 3) Do nothing, make the playoffs, don't win the cup and get a decent-bad spot in the draft (probably 2 drafts). If we weren't going to have a new CBA after this season 1 would make more sense then it does now, but because of the situation they have a lot of players who have a lot of trade value. 3 makes no sense, no matter how you look at it. Option 2 just makes the most sense. They have a good group of prospects, you add a couple high picks, maybe 2 or 3 first rounders this year and in 5 years you have a very good core for a team. All those teams that have built through the draft start with a couple losing seasons that get them some early picks.

The Leafs don't have that future superstar, offensive machine (Steens more of a playmaker, Williams and Volkov are long shots at this point, and Stajans a future two-way 2nd line center), and those players are hard to get without early draft picks. Remember Sundin is a #1 pick, the Leafs got lucky and were able to trade for him, they wouldn't have been half as successful the last 10 years without him. They won't get a chance to get that kind of player (at least younger then 31-28, most likely) without drafting him. Sure its nice to cheer for the Leafs, but I'd rather have a couple loosing seasons and watch them build a really strong core of players that will make the Leafs an NHL force then cheer for them for 2-3 playoffs rounds year after year after year and have to depend on either trades or UFA's (ie -older players) to get those superstar players you need to win.

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11-09-2003, 10:27 PM
  #22
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In regards to Pat Quinn....He really pissed off alot of players over the years in Toronto......He got rid of Stevie Sullivan and the following season thereafter for Chicago he lead the League in short-handed goals..........He got rid of Mike Johnson and today he's the highest scorer in Phoenix and one of the best skaters in the entire NHL........He got rid of Jason Smith cause he felt he wasn't good enough to play in Toronto and today Jason Smith is the captain of the Edmonton Oilers...............He ALSO got rid of Corey Schwab when Schwab asked for a small raise from what the Leafs were paying him and Quinn refused, meanwhile when Cujo went down Schwab was the guy that kept the Leafs afloat...Schwab wasn't good enough for Pat Quinn's team but he was good enough to play on the Stanley Cup winning team in New Jersey last season...in my humble opinion Corey Schwab is light years ahead of Trevor Kidd and would have made a superior backup for Belfour this season.........

Shayne Corson has played on Stanley Cup winning teams and Canada Cup winning teams and was very instrumental in the playoffs for the Leafs the last few years especially shutting down players like Alexei Yashin...One has to question the timing of Corson quitting the Leafs team right when the Leafs were in the playoffs...what's with that?....Pat Quinn had something to do with it I'm almost certain of that....One has to question the way Felix Potvin left town as well.......AND the way Curtis Joseph left town too......all because of Pat Quinn?.......You Betcha!!........

The problem with Pat Quinn is that he is very MUCH Old School.....meaning that "You better do as I say or you're out of here".....as well as don't question his tactics and system or you'll get the boot as well from his hockey team.........

Pat Quinn has been with the Leafs too long now.......It's time to bring in some new blood behind the bench........If he was just the coach we could have defended him and said that he only had the players to work with that the GM gave him to play with but the fact of the matter here is HE WAS the Leafs GM as well.........Believe me if it were not for the upcoming Labour dispute between the NHL owners and the NHLPA Quinn wouldn't even be coaching this Leafs team right now.....The way I see it the new ownership in Toronto have a hidden agenda up their sleeves and it is this.....They've decided that they will ride out the season with Pat Quinn behind the bench as the coach......After this season when a new agreement is in place between the players and team owners around the League the new regime in Toronto will want to hire their own man to coach this Leafs team of theirs....that's the way I see it folks....and THAT'S the way it's gonna happen.

Cheers!~

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11-10-2003, 10:59 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey_00
In regards to Pat Quinn....He really pissed off alot of players over the years in Toronto......He got rid of Stevie Sullivan and the following season thereafter for Chicago he lead the League in short-handed goals..........He got rid of Mike Johnson and today he's the highest scorer in Phoenix and one of the best skaters in the entire NHL........He got rid of Jason Smith cause he felt he wasn't good enough to play in Toronto and today Jason Smith is the captain of the Edmonton Oilers...............He ALSO got rid of Corey Schwab when Schwab asked for a small raise from what the Leafs were paying him and Quinn refused, meanwhile when Cujo went down Schwab was the guy that kept the Leafs afloat...Schwab wasn't good enough for Pat Quinn's team but he was good enough to play on the Stanley Cup winning team in New Jersey last season...in my humble opinion Corey Schwab is light years ahead of Trevor Kidd and would have made a superior backup for Belfour this season.........

Shayne Corson has played on Stanley Cup winning teams and Canada Cup winning teams and was very instrumental in the playoffs for the Leafs the last few years especially shutting down players like Alexei Yashin...One has to question the timing of Corson quitting the Leafs team right when the Leafs were in the playoffs...what's with that?....Pat Quinn had something to do with it I'm almost certain of that....One has to question the way Felix Potvin left town as well.......AND the way Curtis Joseph left town too......all because of Pat Quinn?.......You Betcha!!........

The problem with Pat Quinn is that he is very MUCH Old School.....meaning that "You better do as I say or you're out of here".....as well as don't question his tactics and system or you'll get the boot as well from his hockey team.........

Pat Quinn has been with the Leafs too long now.......It's time to bring in some new blood behind the bench........If he was just the coach we could have defended him and said that he only had the players to work with that the GM gave him to play with but the fact of the matter here is HE WAS the Leafs GM as well.........Believe me if it were not for the upcoming Labour dispute between the NHL owners and the NHLPA Quinn wouldn't even be coaching this Leafs team right now.....The way I see it the new ownership in Toronto have a hidden agenda up their sleeves and it is this.....They've decided that they will ride out the season with Pat Quinn behind the bench as the coach......After this season when a new agreement is in place between the players and team owners around the League the new regime in Toronto will want to hire their own man to coach this Leafs team of theirs....that's the way I see it folks....and THAT'S the way it's gonna happen.

Cheers!~

monkey_00
Fare enough about Sullivan and Smith, but common Jason Smith and Steve sullivan I doubt would have turnt into the players they are today with out a change of teams. Now you can beat that horse to death if you like but that is still not getting to the point I have made that Quinn has done alot for this franchise and does deserve credit for it.. And Slugo Changing comfrences isn't what made this team earn over 90 points each season since Quinn took over Changing Comfrences didn't really help Toronto point wize if anything it would just change the position they landed in the playoffs and I doubt that would change much either. To be honst I refuse to even start a debate about anything with you because you fail to see anyone elses points and turn a blind eye to any facts that prove you wrong 99.9 - 100 percent of the time so I am kinda voiding your posts at the moment until you prove other wise.

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11-10-2003, 11:09 AM
  #24
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"Fare enough about Sullivan and Smith, but common Jason Smith and Steve sullivan I doubt would have turnt into the players they are today with out a change of teams"

Seems like another knock against Quinn, he can't get the most out of young players.


"Now you can beat that horse to death if you like but that is still not getting to the point I have made that Quinn has done alot for this franchise and does deserve credit for it"

Sure he does, but how long do you have to stay on a shinking ship because it got you half way across the ocean?


"And Slugo Changing comfrences isn't what made this team earn over 90 points each season since Quinn took over"

Alone, not it didn't. But it helped.

"To be honst I refuse to even start a debate about anything with you because you fail to see anyone elses points and turn a blind eye to any facts that prove you wrong 99.9 - 100 percent of the time so I am kinda voiding your posts at the moment until you prove other wise"

Seems like you'd rather just ignore the posts I make that "prove" you wrong. I notice how you ignored the benefits of blowing up the team I pointed out and how meaningless it would be not to do so if they aren't a favorite to win the cup. And when someone does prove me worng I do admit it.

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11-10-2003, 11:15 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
Remember too, before Quinn took over the team was in the West, moving the east certainly helped the Leafs record. And 100 point seasons don't win you the cup.
Actually at the time everyone was saying we weren't going to be able to survive in the much tougher Eastern Conference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggo
They aren't going to win cup, they aren't good enough and its a pretty safe bet that at least one of the Leafs star players will hurt going into this years playoffs (its a realility when all your star players are 31-37 years old). So they have 3 options. 1) Trade away their prospects for the players they need to win now. 2) Blow up the team and build for the future. 3) Do nothing, make the playoffs, don't win the cup and get a decent-bad spot in the draft (probably 2 drafts). If we weren't going to have a new CBA after this season 1 would make more sense then it does now, but because of the situation they have a lot of players who have a lot of trade value. 3 makes no sense, no matter how you look at it. Option 2 just makes the most sense. They have a good group of prospects, you add a couple high picks, maybe 2 or 3 first rounders this year and in 5 years you have a very good core for a team. All those teams that have built through the draft start with a couple losing seasons that get them some early picks.

The Leafs don't have that future superstar, offensive machine (Steens more of a playmaker, Williams and Volkov are long shots at this point, and Stajans a future two-way 2nd line center), and those players are hard to get without early draft picks. Remember Sundin is a #1 pick, the Leafs got lucky and were able to trade for him, they wouldn't have been half as successful the last 10 years without him. They won't get a chance to get that kind of player (at least younger then 31-28, most likely) without drafting him. Sure its nice to cheer for the Leafs, but I'd rather have a couple loosing seasons and watch them build a really strong core of players that will make the Leafs an NHL force then cheer for them for 2-3 playoffs rounds year after year after year and have to depend on either trades or UFA's (ie -older players) to get those superstar players you need to win.
You seem to think all this is going to turn us into a young powerhouse team in the NHL.

In reality we'd probably end up more like the Edmonton Oilers.

Remember the Oilers had some top 10 picks. Guys like Ryan Smyth, Jason Bonsignore and Steve Kelly.

Any top 10 pick the Leafs get could easily turn out to be a bust. And even when they do turn out, like Smyth, that doesn't neccessarily make you a Cup contender.

The best thing the Leafs can do is to always remain a veteran team...but still draft and integrate good young players into the team.

Like Colorado, Detroit, Philadelphia, New Jersey....

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