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Not that I'd like to see the Rangers lose him, as he's one of the few who wear the Jersey with pride, but it sounds like the 'Nucks could use Purinton..
1. He's a decent 6th to 8th (8th with the 'Nucks) defenseman who has taken many sifts at 4th line LW and looked as good as 4th line LW enforcers usually look..
2. He doesn't gripe about being scratched, and always talks in terms of the team..
3. Low cost
4. Will take on any and all comers, and win more than his share..
Now I won't begin to argue that he has some kind of "high" trade value, but for thise reasons above, he has some value to the Rangers, so to part with him would have to make sense..
Not that I'd like to see the Rangers lose him, as he's one of the few who wear the Jersey with pride, but it sounds like the 'Nucks could use Purinton..
1. He's a decent 6th to 8th (8th with the 'Nucks) defenseman who has taken many sifts at 4th line LW and looked as good as 4th line LW enforcers usually look..
2. He doesn't gripe about being scratched, and always talks in terms of the team..
3. Low cost
4. Will take on any and all comers, and win more than his share..
Now I won't begin to argue that he has some kind of "high" trade value, but for thise reasons above, he has some value to the Rangers, so to part with him would have to make sense..
Offers?
The problem with adding another dmen, is we don't have the numbers to accomodate another roster player (and I don't know how much experience he really has on the wing).
We have 7 dmen right now, and Crow is already finding it hard to take any one of them out of the lineup... he didn't want to take Slegr out but was forced to with Allen's return.
with the forwards, we have 1 extra forward right now, as Lindgren is hurt, but not on IR... so we're rotating 1 forward in and out of the lineup (between Keane and Ruutu)... for us to add a "goon" we're going to have to move one of these guys...
Keane isn't going to get moved... so that leaves Ruutu.... Ruutu has been playing well, and personally I wouldn't move him .. he fits the role we have him in, as our #12 forward, giving time to Keane (#13)... but I don't think that Crow is as high on him... so he might be willing to move him to add that enforcer?
I wouldn't make that deal - and I don't know if Burke does either, since he likes Ruutu's grit and energy, despite some of the things he says about his inconsistency... but if the Canucks use anyone to add a part-time enforcer, that's not a mid prospect, or a mid pick, it's most likely to be Ruutu...
that brings us to Purinton... is he really a true heavyweight enforcer, or just a tough guy that will drop his gloves at times and play a gritty game?? because if he's not a true enforcer, ahead of May in this role, then the Canucks would have zero interest in him (and still any interest they do have would have to be in Purinton as a winger, not a dman).
May has done an admirable job in playing the enforcer role when he has too... but we're not really a team that needs too much of that...
May cannot keep this up. That is what spurred this thread. He was so worn out from fighting Brown that stayed in the locker room for the rest of the wild game. I think we're deluding ourselves if we think that May can continue to take poundings and not get hurt. It's only a matter of time.
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
team toughness overall is also not an issue IMO... our defense is big - one of the biggest in the league... and we have plenty of grit up front as well.
Nobody (okay, at least not me) said it was an issue. I'm not talking about team toughness, I'm talking about a guy that can drop em with the Laraques and Lows and not get killed. When you look around at our rivals, most of them have entire lines that are composed of goons. Would it kill us to give up an 5th rounder or a mid-level prospect to pick up a heavyweight goon? No. That's why I wasn't concerned when we lost Langdon, because these guys are a dime a dozen and the problem would be easy to "fix" when it became necessary to. I personally feel that the time is now.
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
yes we do lack a legitimate heavyweight enforcer... but I don't see the need for it really at this stage... also right now our PP has been very average, but once that kicks into gear teams aren't going to be trying to get too many penalties against us - like in the past 2 seasons.
It was a nice idea to go enforcerless and pretend that our guys would never have to fight. The truth is it doesn't work that way. May and Allen have been forced to answer the bell many times already and their inability to win fights has cost us momentum in several games. Is it a huge deal? Not really. But considering that this problem would only take a mid-round draft pick or average prospect to solve, I don't see why we shouldn't do it.
Not really.. Not that I have a problem wihth the value or those two players, nor that the Rangers couldn't use them, but as a fan, I'd hate to see another forward brought in and take time away from Lundmark or Dom Moore, and we all know Sather wouldn't dare sit down one of his ineffective and overpaid vets..
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
that brings us to Purinton... is he really a true heavyweight enforcer, or just a tough guy that will drop his gloves at times and play a gritty game?? because if he's not a true enforcer, ahead of May in this role, then the Canucks would have zero interest in him (and still any interest they do have would have to be in Purinton as a winger, not a dman).
On Dale, I'd call him a true enforcer, but I guess it depends on your definition. He's got the size, the mean streak and the fighting ability, and he will get involved if anyone looks at a teammate sideways, so yes, I would call him a true enforcer. As far as him on the wing, he looks "good". I use the quotes because we're still talking about an enforcer.. He doesn't have the game that say, Brashear has, but he does a good job in taking care of his own end. He sure looks better than McKenna did there..
I guess there isn't much of a fit for a deal though, I doubt the 'Nucks are looking to send anything the Rangers way that would make them want to part with Dale, simply because of the versatility he brings to a team that lacks depth like the Rangers..
Rangers need prospect depth, and/or a defensive defenseman. Dale himself is not likely to bring either or with much value..
It was a nice idea to go enforcerless and pretend that our guys would never have to fight. The truth is it doesn't work that way. May and Allen have been forced to answer the bell many times already and their inability to win fights has cost us momentum in several games. Is it a huge deal? Not really. But considering that this problem would only take a mid-round draft pick or average prospect to solve, I don't see why we shouldn't do it.
well if we can get someone for a mid round draft pick, that can play the #14 role, I'm all for it too... I don't mind having a Langdon on the roster playing 3-5mins a game, every 5 games.
But losing fights, and losing this kind of momentum just doesn't seem like a huge deal to me at this point... it's not like May and Allen are getting pummpled out there, and the rest of the guys are deflated because of this... after all, we've only lost 3 games this season - Detroit, Columbus, and St. Louis - and toughness wasn't a reason why we lost any of these games - we actually showed up well physically for these games.
I agree with you that finding another Langdon is needed eventually for this team... just don't think it's a priority at all, and we really can wait closer to the deadline to get one... the reason why I'd wait, is because players like this are usually put on waivers at some point in the year and we have a good chance of getting one via that route.
but in order to have a player like this, we would have to move one of Ruutu or Lindgren just to stay within the 23 man limit... at this point, I wouldn't deal Ruutu for a Langdon type either.
I agree with you that finding another Langdon is needed eventually for this team... just don't think it's a priority at all, and we really can wait closer to the deadline to get one... the reason why I'd wait, is because players like this are usually put on waivers at some point in the year and we have a good chance of getting one via that route.
While it isn't a huge deal to get one ASAP, I don't really agree with the logic of waiting. A goon isn't going to cost us very much now so I'm not sure why we would wait for the price to drop. Moreover, we need this guy for these regular season grudgematches, not the playoffs. Unless we can find one of those elusive goons that can actually play, whomever we get is going to be riding the pine during the postseason.
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
but in order to have a player like this, we would have to move one of Ruutu or Lindgren just to stay within the 23 man limit... at this point, I wouldn't deal Ruutu for a Langdon type either.
That was my concern before but with Lindgren on the IR I don't think it's as big of an issue. There's no telling how long he'll be out for...
While it isn't a huge deal to get one ASAP, I don't really agree with the logic of waiting. A goon isn't going to cost us very much now so I'm not sure why we would wait for the price to drop. Moreover, we need this guy for these regular season grudgematches, not the playoffs. Unless we can find one of those elusive goons that can actually play, whomever we get is going to be riding the pine during the postseason.
That was my concern before but with Lindgren on the IR I don't think it's as big of an issue. There's no telling how long he'll be out for...
Sorry, I have to agree with NFITO. A goon is not a priority for the Canucks at this time. You are only assuming that May, Allen or Cloutier cannot handle that role throughout the whole year. If May is injured, than it is relatively easy to acquire a goon type player on very short notice. There are a number of those players on ome of the weaker NHL teams & on almost every AHL & ECHL team in those leagues. As for a goon not costing the Canucks very much at all right now, I have to totally disagree with you on that point. To acquire a goon the cost is a very, very valuable roster spot. To acquire a goon just to sit in the pressbox is a total waste. Grenier is hurt right now, but may not be for long & May is not hurt at all. If a goon was needed now, all I would do is trade for an AHLer to play for the Moose, not the Canucks.
Again, as NFITO also is trying to say. Currently we are first in the league. Our toughest opponant this year physically was St Louis & we didn't lose that game because we didn't have a goon. When we start losing games solely because of the physical play of the opposition, that is the only time to be concerned about Vancouver's toughness. Until then, I feel you are just creating a worry that really isn't a big deal.
The Canucks should give Martin Grenier a chance if they want some toughness in the line-up.
they'd have to play him on the wing though...
I don't think that Grenier is ready for even the #6 defense role in a game... even the #6 has to play 10-15mins a game, which is too much for a goon-assignment, and I don't know if Grenier is ready for anything more.
also I think our current schedule is a factor in putting a goon into the lineup as well... with a part-time enforcer, we're looking at having him play 2-5 mins a game (an enforcer that can play more will cost more to get as well) - at this time can the Canucks really afford that?? their schedule has been absolutely brutal with travelling back and forth and it looks like it'll be like this until mid January... during a schedule like this you don't want your players playing more than they already are.... right now Crow has been distributing ice time fairly well across the board.
I also agree with Hiwayman's point about getting an enforcer to play in Manitoba.... guess a Mike Brown type that is younger so he doesn't need to clear waivers and then can be brought up for those games where we really need an enforcer to sit at the end of the bench.... although Brown was pretty much useless for anything else, he was a young heavyweight that would go with anyone... for a #14 forward, do we need anything more?
maybe pick up Perrot from waivers when he gets on them - and he should eventually this season... he's probably a good fit for the #14 spot.
Sorry, I have to agree with NFITO. A goon is not a priority for the Canucks at this time. You are only assuming that May, Allen or Cloutier cannot handle that role throughout the whole year. If May is injured, than it is relatively easy to acquire a goon type player on very short notice.
So we're supposed to wait until May gets hurt before picking up a goon? I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense to me. I'd rather keep him healthy if all it's going to cost us is an 8th round pick.
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Originally Posted by Hi-wayman
To acquire a goon the cost is a very, very valuable roster spot.
The one currently being held be Fedor Fedorov? We've got an extra roster spot. Lindgren isn't coming back anytime soon.
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Originally Posted by Hi-wayman
Grenier is hurt right now, but may not be for long & May is not hurt at all. If a goon was needed now, all I would do is trade for an AHLer to play for the Moose, not the Canucks.
Nobody is saying that isn't a viable option. That's the point of this thread. In fact, I personally think one reasonable option would be to trade for someone young enough that he doesn't have to clear waivers. If Lindgren ever does come back, we wouldn't have to lose either.
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Originally Posted by Hi-wayman
Again, as NFITO also is trying to say. Currently we are first in the league. Our toughest opponant this year physically was St Louis & we didn't lose that game because we didn't have a goon. When we start losing games solely because of the physical play of the opposition, that is the only time to be concerned about Vancouver's toughness. Until then, I feel you are just creating a worry that really isn't a big deal.
It's impossible the quantify momentum shifts, but seeing your guy get pounded on is not good for team morale. And FWIW, May losing to Low could be considered a turning point of sorts in that blues game. Of course, it's impossible to say that it "cost" us the game but it didn't help. And just because your team is in 1st place doesn't mean things are perfect...
I don't think that Grenier is ready for even the #6 defense role in a game... even the #6 has to play 10-15mins a game, which is too much for a goon-assignment, and I don't know if Grenier is ready for anything more.
Why not just dress 7 d-men? That way Grenier could still play defense(although I think he's capable of playing 5 min/game on the 4th line), and wouldn't have to play 10-15 min/game. If the Canucks really were lacking some toughness and size, Grenier could easily be called up for some games against tough opponents. Burke even said that Grenier could see some action with the Canucks this season.
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I also agree with Hiwayman's point about getting an enforcer to play in Manitoba.... guess a Mike Brown type that is younger so he doesn't need to clear waivers and then can be brought up for those games where we really need an enforcer to sit at the end of the bench.... although Brown was pretty much useless for anything else, he was a young heavyweight that would go with anyone... for a #14 forward, do we need anything more?
They have Marc-Andre Roy down in the ECHL. He's tough customer who knows what his role is. The only problem is that he's basically useless as a hockey player...
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maybe pick up Perrot from waivers when he gets on them - and he should eventually this season... he's probably a good fit for the #14 spot.
That could be an option, but aren't the Leafs pretty high on him? Wasn't there talk of him possibly taking over Domi's spot in the line-up and the Leafs shipping Domi elsewhere? In any case, goons are a dime a dozen in the NHL. If the Canucks really wanted one, they could get one for dirt cheap...
In any case, goons are a dime a dozen in the NHL. If the Canucks really wanted one, they could get one for dirt cheap...
I agree....
so you have to wonder if the Canucks feel that they really need a goon at all??
they did lose Langdon on waivers, and if they did feel that they needed a player like that, they would have probably picked one up on waivers when they lost Langdon.
Even prior to that, they haven't had a fulltime goon in the lineup since Brashear, and Langdon when he was here, barely played! neither did Brown who was the designated part-time goon between Brashear and Langdon's time.
Maybe Burke doesn't feel we need a goon at all... and it wouldn't be that surprising considering Crow's system isn't exactly one that needs a goon to be effective...
personally, I think that having May and Allen drop the gloves when we need them to, and a few other guys that can change momentum with a physical shift (like Cooke, Ruutu, Bertuzzi and most of our dmen) is enough... certainly looking at their record and their on-ice play, we could agree on this?
btw... who are the designated enforcers right now on the top teams in the league? Ottawa (Neil?Hnidy?)? Detroit (McCarty)? Colorado (Worrell, injured)? Jersey? St. Louis (Low?)? Dallas?
seems to me that most of the teams that have designated goons aren't among the elite... and when we compare our enforcers (May, Allen) to these teams, are we really missing a lot? the reason why I look at these teams, is because this is now who we should compare ourselves too... we don't need to matchup on having goons, because the Jackets and Wild decide to ice a goon-line or because Calgary and Edmonton have Oliwa and Laraque... we don't see Detroit or Dallas going out and addressing this by adding their own goons?
btw... who are the designated enforcers right now on the top teams in the league? Ottawa (Neil?Hnidy?)? Detroit (McCarty)? Colorado (Worrell, injured)? Jersey? St. Louis (Low?)? Dallas?
Colorado has Cummins and Worrell.
St.Louis has Low.
Dallas has Downey.
Edmonton has Laraque.
Minnesota has Johnson/Brown/Henry.
These are all heavyweights on rivals/top western teams that May/Allen are clearly outmatched by.
I agree that Burke has decided that this team doesn't need a heavyweight goon. He's said so himself as soon as we lost Langdon. I'm not so sure that's so wise considering all the goons on the top teams in the West. It seems to me that it will take an injury to May to make us acquire a goon and I just don't feel that reactive management is the best way to go.
Honestly, it isn't a huge deal. But right now this is probably the most "pressing" (using the term very liberally) concern for the Canucks which speaks to just how well the team is doing.
btw... who are the designated enforcers right now on the top teams in the league? Ottawa (Neil?Hnidy?)? Detroit (McCarty)? Colorado (Worrell, injured)? Jersey? St. Louis (Low?)? Dallas?
Dallas has Erskine and Downey, Colarado has been using Paul Kariya's old friend Jim Cummins, Jersey has Stevenson(you may be right there) and Detroit isn't really a top team so far this year :mad:.
I have the answer for the 'Nucks.......P.J. Stock!
Cheap, good team guy, will stick up for teamates, take on Heavyweights, could be aquired for little value and would probably be just happy to be back in the show.(wouldn't worry about ice time/being scratched)
well we may disagree on the Canucks "needing" an enforcer, because I do think that May and Allen are doing a good enough job (yea, they aren't going to win too many fights against the Laraque's of the league, but they aren't exactly push-overs either)... but we do agree on the Canucks not really need much right now.
if we're arguing over giving up a mid/late round pick to pick up a #14 forward who'll play a couple minutes every few games, and this being all we really need, then we can all agree that these are damn fine times for our team!!
if you can afford to play him 10minutes or less, he's a great energy/tough guy.
He'll take on anyone in the league, and he skates so well that he can actually forecheck(unlike someone like Mckenna, for instance). NOw his coverage in the defensive zone is bad(he always looks to hit people)... but I think he makes under 800k.
Don't know why other Canuck fans missed my earlier comment that we already have a goon playing on the team. A real heavy weight who will take on anyone in the league & won't even get sent to the penalty box for fighting. Cloutier!
Just wanted to pass along; there's been rumblings that Burke is looking for an enforcer, and has had talks with the Buffalo Sabres in particular. This second-hand info, not reliable by any means, but the guys who've said this are pretty respectable. Rumors were fueled when Crawford was directly asked if he thought they needed another enforcer, if only to help May, and instead of going into his usual "team toughness" diatribe he responded with "no comment".
The one currently being held be Fedor Fedorov? We've got an extra roster spot. Lindgren isn't coming back anytime soon.
Maybe you forgot.. but Fedorov is up replacing Arvedson.
After Arvedson returns we send Fedor back down to the minors.
Meaning we have a full roster as it is.. Once Lingren returns then we run into problems as we don't have room for King anymore. I think you can be assured that King won't be leaving if he continues to find the net. One of Ruutu, Slegr or Lingren will be on the way out once Lindgren gets healthy.
Todd Fedoruk might be available with Brashear coming back into the lineup. Fedoruk is already a legitimate heavyweight and he's only 24, so I'm not really sure what he would cost.
