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What do you think of this proposal: Handzus for Calder

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Old
07-13-2006, 09:34 PM
  #1
Nuclear
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What do you think of this proposal: Handzus for Calder

Straight up, flyers get the winger they need, Hawks get the gritty passionate center that can be a rolemodel for their young players.

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07-13-2006, 09:37 PM
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I'd do it, but I'm not sure the Hawks would. Zues is a great player, but I think we tend to overvalue him.

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07-13-2006, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyersProspect2 View Post
I'd do it, but I'm not sure the Hawks would. Zues is a great player, but I think we tend to overvalue him.
i think flyer fans undervalue him... his defensive play is a major reason of our success the last few years. if it wasn't for him the Rex/Leclair line a couple years ago would have been a defensive disaster (he freed them up to go get points), and last year he was EASILY our most important forward in the first half of the season before he busted his shoulder -- literally played every position at forward.

he's not a true scoring talent, however, he's a decent playmaker. he's rarely out of position and just plays good hockey...

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07-13-2006, 10:48 PM
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Ex Storm
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
i think flyer fans undervalue him... his defensive play is a major reason of our success the last few years. if it wasn't for him the Rex/Leclair line a couple years ago would have been a defensive disaster (he freed them up to go get points), and last year he was EASILY our most important forward in the first half of the season before he busted his shoulder -- literally played every position at forward.

he's not a true scoring talent, however, he's a decent playmaker. he's rarely out of position and just plays good hockey...
Okay, we undervalue his importance to our team, but what does that say regarding the trade proposal?

I say no way the Hawks take that deal straight up.

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07-14-2006, 07:40 AM
  #5
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Point wise they are very similar but Calder plays 1st line minutes and Zeus plays 3rd line minutes. I do not think it should be player for player trade.

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07-14-2006, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by trippyime View Post
Okay, we undervalue his importance to our team, but what does that say regarding the trade proposal?

I say no way the Hawks take that deal straight up.
i'm all for trading Handzus as long as i'm comfortable with our center situation going into this season... i would argue that he could be a good wing on the Richards line if we have all of our bodies (Handzus-Richards-Kapanen), they were effective together when they played on the same line for a short time before the injuries set in. personally i'd rather move Nedved for a bad of donuts and call it a day... unless they want to try Nedved as the 2nd line wing with Umberger and Carter.

that may be true... however, i think a center like Handzus who is good at everything, should carry a decent value on the trade market.

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07-14-2006, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Point wise they are very similar but Calder plays 1st line minutes and Zeus plays 3rd line minutes. I do not think it should be player for player trade.
Well, I think there a mistake here that a lot of people are making. Handzus is usually at the top of the team in minutes. He plays 1st line minutes, just usually plays with a lot of 3rd 4th line players. If he played 1st line minutes, with 1st line players for a whole year, he would hit 25 goals 45 assists easily IMO.

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07-14-2006, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuclear View Post
Straight up, flyers get the winger they need, Hawks get the gritty passionate center that can be a rolemodel for their young players.
Hawks would laugh, I'd do it in seconds.

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07-14-2006, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Point wise they are very similar but Calder plays 1st line minutes and Zeus plays 3rd line minutes. I do not think it should be player for player trade.
Actually they are both at about 18:30 atoi last year and Handzus is consistently at that level the last few years and Calder has just built up to that. The point totals the last 3 years of NHL are very similar and Calder is first line bad team and Zus is second or third line good team. Zus is a very good defensive forward and is on the PK, not sure about Calder on the PK. Both will be UFA next year.
Bottom line, close players value wise but what does each team need.

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07-14-2006, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex88 View Post
Actually they are both at about 18:30 atoi last year and Handzus is consistently at that level the last few years and Calder has just built up to that. The point totals the last 3 years of NHL are very similar and Calder is first line bad team and Zus is second or third line good team. Zus is a very good defensive forward and is on the PK, not sure about Calder on the PK. Both will be UFA next year.
Bottom line, close players value wise but what does each team need.
Yes but Handzus played with rookies (Richards not that he is a bad players) or guys like Brashear, Radio, Kapanen, Stevenson and Phantoms players. You give Handzus steady wingers and he will produce more then Calder.

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07-14-2006, 08:49 PM
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Gert B Frobe
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why on earth would the Hawks make that deal?

Although I like the way he plays and think he is a very good assett to the team - I think most Flyers fans overvalue Handzus quite a bit...

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07-14-2006, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Mountaineer View Post
why on earth would the Hawks make that deal?

Although I like the way he plays and think he is a very good assett to the team - I think most Flyers fans overvalue Handzus quite a bit...
Why is Zus overvalued???
Defense = check
Durable = check
Decent offensive numbers = check
Affordable price = check
Size = check

Yes his foot speed stinks and his "finish" is average but those are really his only problems that I can see. He is a tweener - too good offensively for 3rd duty but not a super offensive 2nd liner.

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07-14-2006, 11:11 PM
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Gert B Frobe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex88 View Post
Why is Zus overvalued???
Defense = check
Durable = check
Decent offensive numbers = check
Affordable price = check
Size = check

Yes his foot speed stinks and his "finish" is average but those are really his only problems that I can see. He is a tweener - too good offensively for 3rd duty but not a super offensive 2nd liner.
defense = check
durable = check
offensive numbers = ???
price = check
size that he doesn't use = check
slow, slow, slow... = check

He's just too slow IMO. Again I think he is really good but we have a lot of good centers we need to find minutes for. If he can fetch a winger of equal value on ice and with a comparable price then why not?

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07-15-2006, 12:26 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaineer View Post
why on earth would the Hawks make that deal?

Although I like the way he plays and think he is a very good assett to the team - I think most Flyers fans overvalue Handzus quite a bit...
Handzus is the type of player that is necessary on good teams... he isn't a liability anywhere on the ice, and is extremely strong in certain areas. The reason Handzus is tradeable is because players like Primeau/Richards are already here.

Handzus is undervalued here, however, it is also a position of strength on this club... so he's an asset worth discussing in trades.

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07-15-2006, 06:36 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaineer View Post
defense = check
durable = check
offensive numbers = ???
price = check
size that he doesn't use = check
slow, slow, slow... = check

He's just too slow IMO. Again I think he is really good but we have a lot of good centers we need to find minutes for. If he can fetch a winger of equal value on ice and with a comparable price then why not?
Mountaineer you are changing your tune. In your initial post that I quoted you suggested the Hawks would never do the trade suggesting Zus is significantly different/overvalued compared to Calder. I am saying the numbers are not very different the last 3 years AND Zus brings alot of other things to the table. I also said his foot speed is not good but that has not really ever been in question; unless we want to base all trades just on speed.

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Old
07-15-2006, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaineer View Post
defense = check
durable = check
offensive numbers = ???
price = check
size that he doesn't use = check
slow, slow, slow... = check

He's just too slow IMO. Again I think he is really good but we have a lot of good centers we need to find minutes for. If he can fetch a winger of equal value on ice and with a comparable price then why not?
Handzus uses his size. He is much better now then when we traded for him.

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07-15-2006, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Handzus uses his size. He is much better now then when we traded for him.
Handzus doesn't use his size. He's got a long reach, but he's soft, soft, soft in terms of physical play. With that being said, not every player needs to be a banger. However, when you're 6'5 and you weight 220 - 230 pounds, you should be able to throw your weight around every now and then and let other teams know you will be a physical presence on the ice and that they might have to pay a price playing against you.

Someone else said it on here. Handzus is expendible simply because Richards does everything that Handzus does and can do it at a faster speed. As well, Richards and Carter's ice time is going to go up dramatically this season and it's going to cut into Handzus' time. Someone mentioned moving Handzus to the wing, but if the Flyers are going to use Ruzicka and Potulny on the wings, that bumps Handzus. Handzus has also proven that he can't be the shutdown center that the team needs. I know Calder might not be popular on here, but he would be a great fit for the Carter line. Personally, I'd rather see Handzus dealt for a defenseman like Eric Brewer or Christian Backman.

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07-15-2006, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Handzus uses his size. He is much better now then when we traded for him.

What are you watching?

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Old
07-15-2006, 09:46 AM
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IMO Handzus is a softer version of Holik. He does not throw thundering checks but he does uses his size.

I do not think Richards (as good as he is) can play his role yet.

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07-15-2006, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
IMO Handzus is a softer version of Holik. He does not throw thundering checks but he does uses his size.

I do not think Richards (as good as he is) can play his role yet.
I would have to disagree. Richards can play already play his part.

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07-15-2006, 10:15 AM
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I see Flyers fans have no love for Handzus after last season.
Richards will be a better player then Handzus no doubt but can Richards play against LeCavalier, Gomez, Drury, Koivu, Nyladner, Brad Richards, Sundin in his 2nd year for 82 games? I seriously doubt that.

I would want Flyers to go after a true RW Murray, Svatos, Ryder if they are available. Calder is a decent player but not exactly what we need. Too many left hand shots on this team.

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07-15-2006, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
I see Flyers fans have no love for Handzus after last season.
Richards will be a better player then Handzus no doubt but can Richards play against LeCavalier, Gomez, Drury, Koivu, Nyladner, Brad Richards, Sundin in his 2nd year for 82 games? I seriously doubt that.

I would want Flyers to go after a true RW Murray, Svatos, Ryder if they are available. Calder is a decent player but not exactly what we need. Too many left hand shots on this team.
After Svatos' year last year what makes you think the Avs want him out?

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07-15-2006, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
I see Flyers fans have no love for Handzus after last season.
Richards will be a better player then Handzus no doubt but can Richards play against LeCavalier, Gomez, Drury, Koivu, Nyladner, Brad Richards, Sundin in his 2nd year for 82 games? I seriously doubt that.

I would want Flyers to go after a true RW Murray, Svatos, Ryder if they are available. Calder is a decent player but not exactly what we need. Too many left hand shots on this team.
Honestly, as much as I think Richards can be that good of a shut down guy, I think he has much more offensive ability then people give him credit for. I want him to get more opportunity with some skilled wingers and have someone like Handzus behind him to be the shut down guy sine Handzus seems to enjoy playing more defensively.

As for people who do not think he uses his size, he is actually very, very good at using his size. No he is not a banger, but how do you think someone with his skating ability, or lack there of, is able to play in this league? He is one of the better forwards in the league at using his size to hold onto the puck and keep himself in good position. Who cares if he doesnt through thunderous checks all the time. It is not his job to do that. There should be players on the 3rd and 4th lines that are there to check.

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07-15-2006, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Honestly, as much as I think Richards can be that good of a shut down guy, I think he has much more offensive ability then people give him credit for. I want him to get more opportunity with some skilled wingers and have someone like Handzus behind him to be the shut down guy sine Handzus seems to enjoy playing more defensively.

As for people who do not think he uses his size, he is actually very, very good at using his size. No he is not a banger, but how do you think someone with his skating ability, or lack there of, is able to play in this league? He is one of the better forwards in the league at using his size to hold onto the puck and keep himself in good position. Who cares if he doesnt through thunderous checks all the time. It is not his job to do that. There should be players on the 3rd and 4th lines that are there to check.
I think you're mistaking most of us in terms of Handzus being physical. I've said that one doesn't have to be a banger to be a physical player. With that being said, Handzus is also 6'5 and almost 230 pounds. Sometimes, you have to impose yourself against other teams and Handzus just doesn't do that. He's a leaner and someone who gets in the way of other teams. It's not a bad quality to have, but nobody fears going up against Handzus because he doesn't throw that big check. If he threw one of those big checks every 5 to 10 games, that is more than enough incentive for other teams to stay out of his way.

As for being a shutdown guy, Handzus is not a shutdown guy simply because he isn't physical enough to work that role. Richards, at 5'10 is more physical than Handzus. You're right though in that Richards is a more offensively gifted player. I've always said that Carter will be the top center in Philadelphia with Richards being number 2. As a number 2 guy, I can also see Richards putting up 80 to 90 points a season when he hits his prime. Handzus is in his prime right now and he hasn't even hit 60 once in his career.

That's why I've always been an advocate of moving Handzus. He isn't physical enough to be a shut down guy and he doesn't have a decent enough offensive game to be an effective 2nd line center.

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Old
07-15-2006, 01:50 PM
  #25
markzab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmtznr0th View Post
After Svatos' year last year what makes you think the Avs want him out?
How about the fact that Svatos agent has publicly said that the 2 side are nowhere near an agreement.

http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/col060714.html

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