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A few ideas about our 2nd Center

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Old
07-14-2006, 05:38 PM
  #26
goalchenyuk
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the problem isn't the second line center ; we have it in Koivu ! what a perfect second line center he would be . But we need to find someone to play the first line ....

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07-14-2006, 05:44 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by mark0v View Post
the problem isn't the second line center ; we have it in Koivu ! what a perfect second line center he would be . But we need to find someone to play the first line ....
Yeah I agree, Saku would be a totally dominating second liner... However trying to find ANY of the 66 guys above him (save # 62 in Kovalev) for a decent value is very hard to do...
He makes himself a competent #1 with his pure tenacity, and heart. Last yearès team however had some holes offensively (to put it mildly). More higher end talent on his wings, and I wouldnt be surprised if we see Captain K in the top 25 of scoring forwards... (80 points would put him there)

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07-14-2006, 09:14 PM
  #28
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This has been debated a lot, and to put it simply: in my opinion, this team won't be able to contend with Koivu, Ribeiro, and Plekanec as their 1-2-3 punch down the middle. Call Koivu what you want, be it a 1st or 2nd center, but the reality of it is that we need a big dominating center who can log lots of ice time and be an offensive threat.

As skilled as our guys are, they don't have enough strength and stamina to excel and perform at their best during an 82-game season and a full playoff run. That's always been Koivu's problem: stamina for a long stretch of very competitive hockey.

As for the trade proposals, I think they're not that farfetched. I think they're a good base to start discussions. If I was Clark or Detroit's GM, I would listen to what Gainey had to say if he opened up the conversation with those players in mind. Fans are always surprised when a big trade happens and one side always feels like they didn't get enough, which means that fans don't rate their players the same way GM's do.

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07-15-2006, 08:10 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paddy View Post
This has been debated a lot, and to put it simply: in my opinion, this team won't be able to contend with Koivu, Ribeiro, and Plekanec as their 1-2-3 punch down the middle. Call Koivu what you want, be it a 1st or 2nd center, but the reality of it is that we need a big dominating center who can log lots of ice time and be an offensive threat.

As skilled as our guys are, they don't have enough strength and stamina to excel and perform at their best during an 82-game season and a full playoff run. That's always been Koivu's problem: stamina for a long stretch of very competitive hockey.

As for the trade proposals, I think they're not that farfetched. I think they're a good base to start discussions. If I was Clark or Detroit's GM, I would listen to what Gainey had to say if he opened up the conversation with those players in mind. Fans are always surprised when a big trade happens and one side always feels like they didn't get enough, which means that fans don't rate their players the same way GM's do.

Two things:

If we go with your premise that we need a big dominating center who can log lots if minutes and be a scoring threat, can you identify who is available to fill that
role.

You like the trade proposals, but how do they address the need you've identified?

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07-15-2006, 08:53 AM
  #30
Marchy79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paddy View Post
This has been debated a lot, and to put it simply: in my opinion, this team won't be able to contend with Koivu, Ribeiro, and Plekanec as their 1-2-3 punch down the middle. Call Koivu what you want, be it a 1st or 2nd center, but the reality of it is that we need a big dominating center who can log lots of ice time and be an offensive threat.

As skilled as our guys are, they don't have enough strength and stamina to excel and perform at their best during an 82-game season and a full playoff run. That's always been Koivu's problem: stamina for a long stretch of very competitive hockey.

As for the trade proposals, I think they're not that farfetched. I think they're a good base to start discussions. If I was Clark or Detroit's GM, I would listen to what Gainey had to say if he opened up the conversation with those players in mind. Fans are always surprised when a big trade happens and one side always feels like they didn't get enough, which means that fans don't rate their players the same way GM's do.

Hmm... I respectfully disagree with your opinion.

You bring up intriguing points, and a lot of it is indeed accurate, or close to the mark.

However... I will be the stickler, and be one of the few that believes that Radek Bonk will be an integral piece of this organization next year.

Plekès I can see being a LWèr, and Ribeiro should be having an improvement season (usually follows the Sophomore Slump).

We are adding top six forwards, which leaves SIX MONTREAL CANADIENS in the top 110 forwards in the entire league (quite impressive, when the mean should be hovering around 180)... Solidifying our lines with strong depth will have the same pull IMO as adding a big, dominating, ice eating Centerman who plays top 2 minutes (which is VERY hard to come by). On the other hand, if Bob and Guy add players who are responsible take no guff kind of players (regardless of size, or playing time) and makes us generally harder to play against... eventually that will account for something. We moved our top 6 SIXTY positions upwards!!!!

We also have burgeoning talent all over the team (other than IMO a top line defenceman thats close... Jury is still out on O Byrne, Emelin, and Fischer IMO).

Guys are peppered on the line up, and anyone thinking training camp will be for the faint of heart are kidding themselves. We are a highly competitive club after the actions of Bob Gainey this week.

Saku is a COMPETENT #1 center. and ELITE #2.
Mike Ribeiro is an ABOVE AVERAGE #2 center, a WEAK #1 & 3.
Radek Bonk is the X FACTOR... If he rebounds, hes competent at ALL THREE top lines... No rebound, hès destined for thirdéfourth line muddling.
Steve Begin is a GREAT # 4 center, a COMPETENT #3, however is injury prone with increased minutes.
Tomas Plekanec... well, I can see as a #3, however I believe hèll be on wing at least starting the season. The guage is not set on him.
Garth Murray is a good bottom line spare center.

For those burning Saku, well, he placed in the top 30 in centers AGAIN this year in scoring (#30)... yes, hès not the best solution ever.. however I do believe he may actually have a bigger season playing with a more talented group of wingers coming through town.

And a final food for thought... Wit those aquisitions made this past week, we have total speed to burn... In fact, we can be arguably the FASTEST team in the show... I am sure thatll help our chances for improving next year

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07-15-2006, 09:47 AM
  #31
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Great post Ghost !

You give exactly the real and true portraiture of our centers . You are very objective with the way you rank the players !

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07-15-2006, 10:48 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark0v View Post
Great post Ghost !

You give exactly the real and true portraiture of our centers . You are very objective with the way you rank the players !
Thanks

I try to stay objective about the players upon evaluating them... Ultimately, I am stunned about the concern of our forward units, after Gainey has done some very astute improvements to addressing our scoring (or lack thereof) needs. The problem IMO, is not really down center... It was our Left Wing that lacked any punch last year... (during the slump... Higgs kicked it in high gear down the stretch for one of the better rookie efforts to cap off the season last year )

My wish list as some have probably seen, is for an upgrade on the point... I dont think wère all that bad back there... however we can use that one guy on the RD who is a top 4 d-man... Komi can do it sometime... but I believe it is way to much to expect him to be Markovs pair next year... Jumping from # 3 pairing to # 1 pairing after how much he was cradled by the organization... could mean set back for Kom. Personally, a stop gap would be perfect, (even for extreme short term)... #2 & 3 pairings are great... but we really are hanging a lot on # 79 & # 8 s heads if things dont go as well as planned. Markov REALLY broke out last year. he showed glimpses here and there. but in terms of defence corps, he was the go to guy last year for the first time in his career... Mikey may be too young to truly add to this respect... and to be honest, I would prefer to see him adding facets to his offensive game... he is very underrated there, and IMO his confidence finally started showing up after his BIG goal last year...
Somewhere there is a 25 minute 30 point physical force... definately a top 2 defender, and our rock... however its going to take a while... I have faith in Komi though, hes has a great personality (from which weve seen) and superior work ethic. I believe he is dedicated to our franchise... and his time WILL indeed come. But to throw him in the top 2 role.. is not what the habs historically do... Thatès why I am more concerned about our d-corps over the centers... The center position, IMO is safe for now, long term... some doubt is there (no heir to Koivu)... but as much as that can be scary to some... looking at our RD depth is what worries me the most

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07-15-2006, 11:34 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
Hmm... I respectfully disagree with your opinion.

You bring up intriguing points, and a lot of it is indeed accurate, or close to the mark.

However... I will be the stickler, and be one of the few that believes that Radek Bonk will be an integral piece of this organization next year.

Plekès I can see being a LWèr, and Ribeiro should be having an improvement season (usually follows the Sophomore Slump).

We are adding top six forwards, which leaves SIX MONTREAL CANADIENS in the top 110 forwards in the entire league (quite impressive, when the mean should be hovering around 180)... Solidifying our lines with strong depth will have the same pull IMO as adding a big, dominating, ice eating Centerman who plays top 2 minutes (which is VERY hard to come by). On the other hand, if Bob and Guy add players who are responsible take no guff kind of players (regardless of size, or playing time) and makes us generally harder to play against... eventually that will account for something. We moved our top 6 SIXTY positions upwards!!!!

We also have burgeoning talent all over the team (other than IMO a top line defenceman thats close... Jury is still out on O Byrne, Emelin, and Fischer IMO).

Guys are peppered on the line up, and anyone thinking training camp will be for the faint of heart are kidding themselves. We are a highly competitive club after the actions of Bob Gainey this week.

Saku is a COMPETENT #1 center. and ELITE #2.
Mike Ribeiro is an ABOVE AVERAGE #2 center, a WEAK #1 & 3.
Radek Bonk is the X FACTOR... If he rebounds, hes competent at ALL THREE top lines... No rebound, hès destined for thirdéfourth line muddling.
Steve Begin is a GREAT # 4 center, a COMPETENT #3, however is injury prone with increased minutes.
Tomas Plekanec... well, I can see as a #3, however I believe hèll be on wing at least starting the season. The guage is not set on him.
Garth Murray is a good bottom line spare center.

For those burning Saku, well, he placed in the top 30 in centers AGAIN this year in scoring (#30)... yes, hès not the best solution ever.. however I do believe he may actually have a bigger season playing with a more talented group of wingers coming through town.

And a final food for thought... Wit those aquisitions made this past week, we have total speed to burn... In fact, we can be arguably the FASTEST team in the show... I am sure thatll help our chances for improving next year

Well, sophmore slumps usually happen when it's after their rookie season. Ribeiro wasn't a rookie and has been bouncing back and forth for years. He had a solid season a couple years back, but still had maturity problems. He was benched during that season for poor work ethic, long shifts and basically poor team play. The following season, he really stunk it up compared to the previous. Sopphmore slumps happen when the player can't seem to get it going no matter how hard they try. During last season, Ribeiro came out and told a reporter that he wasn't trying as hard as he could when Koivu was out. Great teammate, isn't he!!

The guy is 27 years old, sophmore slumps happen to guys 21 or 22, because they still have little things to adjust to in the NHL game. Ribeiro simply has poor work ethic. He seemed to be scared ****less under Gainey, because under Julien he was a jerk off. Took long shifts, lazy play! He figured him and his posse were untouchable considering they were hometown boys! Dagenais was shipped out, Theodre sent packing and Gainey couldn't get any decent return for Ribeiro.

Gainey even tried to replace Ribeiro with Arnott!! Gainey was willing to pay double Ribeiro's salary for about the same offensive production from Arnot, simply to get the little things that Mikey can never provide: grit, size and a physical element. Arnott wanted too much and Gainey knew that Ribeiro will have to do until something better comes along.

Gainey is going to continue to try and upgrade the team's center position. He says to the media that he is done, but if a GM really thought that way, he wouldn't have a job. He will alwys be looking for an upgrade. Gainey has seen little putz Ribeiro play up close and personal and he knows the team will not go any higher until he replaces Ribeiro with a better player!

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07-15-2006, 12:17 PM
  #34
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Well, sophmore slumps usually happen when it's after their rookie season. Ribeiro wasn't a rookie and has been bouncing back and forth for years. He had a solid season a couple years back, but still had maturity problems. He was benched during that season for poor work ethic, long shifts and basically poor team play. The following season, he really stunk it up compared to the previous. Sopphmore slumps happen when the player can't seem to get it going no matter how hard they try. During last season, Ribeiro came out and told a reporter that he wasn't trying as hard as he could when Koivu was out. Great teammate, isn't he!!

The guy is 27 years old, sophmore slumps happen to guys 21 or 22, because they still have little things to adjust to in the NHL game. Ribeiro simply has poor work ethic. He seemed to be scared ****less under Gainey, because under Julien he was a jerk off. Took long shifts, lazy play! He figured him and his posse were untouchable considering they were hometown boys! Dagenais was shipped out, Theodre sent packing and Gainey couldn't get any decent return for Ribeiro.

Gainey even tried to replace Ribeiro with Arnott!! Gainey was willing to pay double Ribeiro's salary for about the same offensive production from Arnot, simply to get the little things that Mikey can never provide: grit, size and a physical element. Arnott wanted too much and Gainey knew that Ribeiro will have to do until something better comes along.

Gainey is going to continue to try and upgrade the team's center position. He says to the media that he is done, but if a GM really thought that way, he wouldn't have a job. He will alwys be looking for an upgrade. Gainey has seen little putz Ribeiro play up close and personal and he knows the team will not go any higher until he replaces Ribeiro with a better player!
Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM GP G A Pts PIM
1999-00 Rouyn-Noranda Huskies QMJHL 2 1 3 4 0 -- -- -- -- --
1999-00 Quebec Remparts QMJHL 21 17 28 45 30 11 3 20 23 38
1999-00 Quebec Citadelles AHL 3 0 0 0 2 -- -- -- -- --
1999-00 Montreal Canadiens NHL 19 1 1 2 2 -- -- -- -- --
2000-01 Quebec Citadelles AHL 74 26 40 66 44 9 1 5 6 23
2000-01 Montreal Canadiens NHL 2 0 0 0 2 -- -- -- -- --
2001-02 Quebec Citadelles AHL 23 9 14 23 36 3 0 3 3 0
2001-02 Montreal Canadiens NHL 43 8 10 18 12 -- -- -- -- --
2002-03 Hamilton Bulldogs AHL 3 0 1 1 0 -- -- -- -- --
2002-03 Montreal Canadiens NHL 52 5 12 17 6 -- -- -- -- --
2003-04 Montreal Canadiens NHL 81 20 45 65 34 11 2 1 3 18
2004-05 Blues FNL 17 8 9 17 4 -- -- -- -- --
2005-06 Montreal Canadiens NHL 79 16 35 51 36 6 0 2 2 0
NHL Totals 276 50 103 153 92 17 2 3 5 18

See I believe Sophomore slumps happen after their first FULL YEAR after their acquisition of their NHL job. Mikey was on the shuttle bus for 4 years before finally sticking with the club.
It can certainly be debated as to when Sophomore jinx would happen in Ribs case. But IMO he made his impact on our club in 03-04... when he finally won a job suitable for his play. Many times prior, Mike would play a 4th liner role, and occasionally play a higher role (in circumstances such as injury).
Heading in to last year, there was plenty of talk about how Ribès sophomore season would be... He was considered the 0-R, 1-R, 2-R player for the first 4 years prior to replacing Perrault permanently as the second line center. Prior top that, he had literally no role with the club... (not one that he could stick to at least).
So yeah, he is definately CONSIDERED a 4th year player (and is also in the bracket where a players best seasons are upcoming: 28-32) but to many, he was a sophomore last year.

Second off, nobody has denied that Ribeiro was immature prior to the implementation that Bob Gainey sacking Julien as coach of this team. But IMO watching his clique dissolve before his eyes made him realize something more than anything else before. The glory days would be behind him (Like Pierre, and Jose) if he kept his ways. IMO he was accepting the changes wholeheartedly last year, and was playing absolutely the best hockey of his career in hopes of changing his fate. Heck, there was a beautiful article, written about how the team was gelling much better with the problems gone... See, the clique would disinclude players from pre-game post-game things... at the end of last year, they realized they ARE A TEAM.

Whatès astounding is that people say Ribeiro is this and that, when in truth... he put up 116 points in 160 games, we call one of those 2 seasons poor. Last year, some have poited out that he was still developing, and IMO if he has bought the system that Gainey and Carbonneau are selling... well, I dont believe hès as expendable as so many claim him to be...

His best YEARS are ahead of him... so many of his detractors claim he has no value... Well, 65 points, and 53 points... if he closes another 50 + point season... his value will increase IMO drastically... Another reason why I personally dont want to see him go, is that for years hès made a living on that damned vision he has. Now that hès elevating his game... I cant see a reason why to lose him esp. entering his prime years, and apparently non-existent value.

I would honestly of been disappointed with Gainey if he pushed for Arnott over Ribeiro... Arnott is tailing out and our core is very young... Koivu is THE leader here, why wouldnt we play with a competent hometown kid who is still surprising a few fans out there, and improving as he finally becomes more of a real man, rather than the boy he was...

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07-15-2006, 05:11 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
Hmm... I respectfully disagree with your opinion.

You bring up intriguing points, and a lot of it is indeed accurate, or close to the mark.

However... I will be the stickler, and be one of the few that believes that Radek Bonk will be an integral piece of this organization next year.

Plekès I can see being a LWèr, and Ribeiro should be having an improvement season (usually follows the Sophomore Slump).

We are adding top six forwards, which leaves SIX MONTREAL CANADIENS in the top 110 forwards in the entire league (quite impressive, when the mean should be hovering around 180)... Solidifying our lines with strong depth will have the same pull IMO as adding a big, dominating, ice eating Centerman who plays top 2 minutes (which is VERY hard to come by). On the other hand, if Bob and Guy add players who are responsible take no guff kind of players (regardless of size, or playing time) and makes us generally harder to play against... eventually that will account for something. We moved our top 6 SIXTY positions upwards!!!!

We also have burgeoning talent all over the team (other than IMO a top line defenceman thats close... Jury is still out on O Byrne, Emelin, and Fischer IMO).

Guys are peppered on the line up, and anyone thinking training camp will be for the faint of heart are kidding themselves. We are a highly competitive club after the actions of Bob Gainey this week.

Saku is a COMPETENT #1 center. and ELITE #2.
Mike Ribeiro is an ABOVE AVERAGE #2 center, a WEAK #1 & 3.
Radek Bonk is the X FACTOR... If he rebounds, hes competent at ALL THREE top lines... No rebound, hès destined for thirdéfourth line muddling.
Steve Begin is a GREAT # 4 center, a COMPETENT #3, however is injury prone with increased minutes.
Tomas Plekanec... well, I can see as a #3, however I believe hèll be on wing at least starting the season. The guage is not set on him.
Garth Murray is a good bottom line spare center.

For those burning Saku, well, he placed in the top 30 in centers AGAIN this year in scoring (#30)... yes, hès not the best solution ever.. however I do believe he may actually have a bigger season playing with a more talented group of wingers coming through town.

And a final food for thought... Wit those aquisitions made this past week, we have total speed to burn... In fact, we can be arguably the FASTEST team in the show... I am sure thatll help our chances for improving next year
Ghost, I do agree with many of your points. I'm one of Saku's greatest supporters, but I also think he needs help. A big center who can sustain the wear and tear of the playoffs makes a huge difference in a cup run. Just look at the teams that have won a cup the last few years. Saku can be great and carry the team on his shoulders for one or two playoff series, but he gets tired and doesn't have the same stamina since his cancer. Small players, as gritty and strong as they are, always expand much more energy to keep up with the bigger guys, and they get tired in the long run.

Ribs, while he can put up points, hasn't shown the ability to do so in the playoffs yet. If he can't put up lots of points and help his team offensively in the playoffs, then he's not very useful because he lacks the physical element to wear other players down.

Same thing with Pleks. If you can't play physical and wear the opponent down, then you better put up points. The playoffs are very physical, and the team that can sustain their energy level often has the advantage.

One or two small centers that can score = good
all top three centers who are small and can go on scoring droughts = not good

But I do agree that we also need to get better on D to be a true contender as well.

And to another poster who asked how the trade proposals addressed the need I point out... they don't. But they still improve our team nonetheless and are good value-wise. Datsyuk, while being smallish and soft, has tons of skills and can put up points. He's been a little like Ribs in the playoffs, but he's still a much more dangerous center.

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