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Why is Armstrong so hated?

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Old
07-17-2006, 04:10 PM
  #26
Beauty, eh?
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Originally Posted by Primakov! View Post
If Armstrong doesn't possess the skills to be a "full fledged NHL player" then why aren't the guys being outperformed by the AHL player being talked about -- like Eric "I can't hack it on the 2nd line, but I've got speed" Belanger?

Oh screw it... why do I even bother.
LOL....believe me I'm not a huge fan of Belanger's game lately, either.

Look, I would just rather see a lot of guys that are currently down in Manch play in Armstrong's place. I just don't think he's too solid of a player at the NHL level, regardless of what his numbers are. I'm just not a fan.

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07-17-2006, 04:23 PM
  #27
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Every team has a few players like Armstrong, who exist for utility and character, but who are otherwise disposable. The thing here isn't that Armstrong is disliked so much as it is that he's actually liked by quite a few fans. That's what leads to the frequent questions of "Why is Armstrong so hated?"... not that the rest dislike him any more than any other utility player. That's my theory, at least.

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07-17-2006, 06:14 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Primakov! View Post
If Armstrong doesn't possess the skills to be a "full fledged NHL player" then why aren't the guys being outperformed by the AHL player being talked about -- like Eric "I can't hack it on the 2nd line, but I've got speed" Belanger?

Oh screw it... why do I even bother.

Please don't make me search for all of the threads. There are only about 30 of them.

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07-17-2006, 06:24 PM
  #29
Johnny Utah
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Originally Posted by Skebo View Post
Please don't make me search for all of the threads. There are only about 30 of them.
I still can't figure out if he is under contract or not. They list him as an UFA at TSN, but people at LGK say he is under for one more year.

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07-17-2006, 09:00 PM
  #30
Primakov!
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
I still can't figure out if he is under contract or not. They list him as an UFA at TSN, but people at LGK say he is under for one more year.
I'd trust the NHLPA, personally.

http://www.nhlpa.com/WebStats/Player...phy.asp?ID=132

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Old
07-17-2006, 09:11 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
I still can't figure out if he is under contract or not. They list him as an UFA at TSN, but people at LGK say he is under for one more year.
I think I remember someone posting that he reached the point totals necessary for his option year to kick in.

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07-17-2006, 11:13 PM
  #32
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I like Armstrong, as long as he's used on the 4th line. Even when he's misused, I don't dislike him; I just dislike any circumstances that involve Armstrong as a top 6 forward.

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07-17-2006, 11:36 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
I like Armstrong, as long as he's used on the 4th line. Even when he's misused, I don't dislike him; I just dislike any circumstances that involve Armstrong as a top 6 forward.
Exatly. He's a great character guy, works hard, but when he's used about the 3rd line for longer that a short time, it just doesn't work.

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07-18-2006, 06:28 AM
  #34
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Armstrong is AHL talent. At best. Character and heart aren't everything. There are plenty of carreer-AHL players who have plenty of that.

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07-18-2006, 09:37 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Armstrong is AHL talent. At best. Character and heart aren't everything. There are plenty of carreer-AHL players who have plenty of that.
How many of those guys scored 40 points in the NHL last year? By definition he IS a NHL player. Just because he doesn't excite us every shift doesn't mean he sucks. If he is an AHLer then so are McCauley and Belanger and half the centers in the league because they didn't do anything that much better than Armstrong. Check the stats. At least people have said they have an irrational hatred for the guy because he reminds them of the seasons in injury hell. I can understand that. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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07-18-2006, 10:25 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by guzmania View Post
How many of those guys scored 40 points in the NHL last year? By definition he IS a NHL player. Just because he doesn't excite us every shift doesn't mean he sucks. If he is an AHLer then so are McCauley and Belanger and half the centers in the league because they didn't do anything that much better than Armstrong. Check the stats. At least people have said they have an irrational hatred for the guy because he reminds them of the seasons in injury hell. I can understand that. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
You are a gentleman and a scholar.

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Old
07-18-2006, 10:27 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by guzmania View Post
How many of those guys scored 40 points in the NHL last year? By definition he IS a NHL player. Just because he doesn't excite us every shift doesn't mean he sucks. If he is an AHLer then so are McCauley and Belanger and half the centers in the league because they didn't do anything that much better than Armstrong. Check the stats. At least people have said they have an irrational hatred for the guy because he reminds them of the seasons in injury hell. I can understand that. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
That's some good stuff right there guz!

Also, Belanger and Avery are headed for arbitration. IF the arbitrator gets all crazy in favor of either of them, Armstrong might not be such a bad guy to keep around for the next little bit...


Last edited by King Blazer: 07-18-2006 at 10:48 AM.
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Old
07-18-2006, 01:20 PM
  #38
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every team has a scapegoat, the only difference with the kings is half our team are scapegoats

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Old
07-18-2006, 06:33 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by guzmania View Post
How many of those guys scored 40 points in the NHL last year?
For the record, I understand and really respect your point... but, on the other hand, there are probably many aging AHL players who could put up 40pts if they were given 2nd-line ice-time and #1 PP time, as well. The problem is that most them aren't given that. Whenever they're called up, they're kept to 10mins of ice-time on the 3rd and 4th lines, nowhere near the powerplay and are sent back down a week or so later when an NHLer recovers from the flu. Armstrong was extremely fortunate to have a parent club that was experiencing record injuries and had a coach who loved pluggers like him. You can't imagine the luck that he was blessed with that many AHL vets could only dream of having.

Look at Armstrong's history before joing the Kings. It's littered with incompetence at the NHL level. Now, take a look at the histories of other AHL vets... let's take Brad Smyth. Brad has a history of failure at the NHL level that is remarkably similar to Derek's prior to being called up to the Kings. I bet that, if some team were to give Smyth the kind of extended callup and quality ice-time with quality line-mates that Armstrong got, he'd put up 40pts, too. As far as I'm concerned, there's not much difference between Armstrong and Smyth, other than opportunity.

To get back to your disagreement, gokim didn't call Armstrong an AHL player; he called him AHL talent. It's possible, as Armstrong as proven, to be become an NHL player with what many would argue is only AHL talent. Putting up 40pts doesn't necessarily mean that you belong in the NHL when it requires that you play on the 2nd line and on the powerplay, roles in which real NHL talents could put up more than 40pts.

Anyways, I'm not meaning to put down Armstrong, but you appear to be giving him more credit than I think that he deserves. When people give him less credit than he deserves, I speak up on his behalf, too. I don't think that he's as bad as many people think, but also not as good, either.

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Old
07-18-2006, 06:59 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
For the record, I understand and really respect your point... but, on the other hand, there are probably many aging AHL players who could put up 40pts if they were given 2nd-line ice-time and #1 PP time, as well. The problem is that most them aren't given that. Whenever they're called up, they're kept to 10mins of ice-time on the 3rd and 4th lines, nowhere near the powerplay and are sent back down a week or so later when an NHLer recovers from the flu. Armstrong was extremely fortunate to have a parent club that was experiencing record injuries and had a coach who loved pluggers like him. You can't imagine the luck that he was blessed with that many AHL vets could only dream of having.

Look at Armstrong's history before joing the Kings. It's littered with incompetence at the NHL level. Now, take a look at the histories of other AHL vets... let's take Brad Smyth. Brad has a history of failure at the NHL level that is remarkably similar to Derek's prior to being called up to the Kings. I bet that, if some team were to give Smyth the kind of extended callup and quality ice-time with quality line-mates that Armstrong got, he'd put up 40pts, too. As far as I'm concerned, there's not much difference between Armstrong and Smyth, other than opportunity.

To get back to your disagreement, gokim didn't call Armstrong an AHL player; he called him AHL talent. It's possible, as Armstrong as proven, to be become an NHL player with what many would argue is only AHL talent. Putting up 40pts doesn't necessarily mean that you belong in the NHL when it requires that you play on the 2nd line and on the powerplay, roles in which real NHL talents could put up more than 40pts.

Anyways, I'm not meaning to put down Armstrong, but you appear to be giving him more credit than I think that he deserves. When people give him less credit than he deserves, I speak up on his behalf, too. I don't think that he's as bad as many people think, but also not as good, either.
You could argue that he's got NHL talent and AHL speed.

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07-18-2006, 07:11 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by kingsfan25 View Post
You could argue that he's got NHL talent and AHL speed.
I'd argue that he has NHL smarts, but AHL everything else. He definitely has the smarts for the NHL, but his speed, shot and hands are really lacking.

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07-18-2006, 08:04 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
I'd argue that he has NHL smarts, but AHL everything else. He definitely has the smarts for the NHL, but his speed, shot and hands are really lacking.
I'd say that his shot and stickhandling (either or) are average at worst. I think his ability to move the puck and, to create oppurtunities are there (maybe not guaranteed top six, but proficient enough).

His speed, I believe, is really the only thing that's held him back. And it's not as if he's a big, imposing presence like Jason Allison, who's lack of speed can be forgiven because of his capability for dominance. Armstrong's just slow.

If he could skate, to even an average level, I don't think we'd be having this discussion.

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07-18-2006, 09:15 PM
  #43
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I never thought of Armstrong as slow. I remember him keeping up pretty well with the zippy Ziggy. Maybe he's not quick, direction changes an stuff. Any other takes on Dereck's "speed"?

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07-18-2006, 09:40 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guzmania View Post
I never thought of Armstrong as slow. I remember him keeping up pretty well with the zippy Ziggy. Maybe he's not quick, direction changes an stuff. Any other takes on Dereck's "speed"?
He definately doesn'thave jets, but he's average in the speed department. Maybe a little below.

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07-18-2006, 11:40 PM
  #45
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I think when AM overused some peeps; Army in this case, and it made a couple of us a bit irritated, agitated, whatever you call it.

It's like Guilano... couldn't stand the kid yet AM loved the heck out of him. I won't ever understand what on earth AM was thinking last season........r even if he was!?


Last edited by savemefromtears: 07-18-2006 at 11:52 PM.
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Old
07-19-2006, 12:48 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
I'd argue that he has NHL smarts, but AHL everything else. He definitely has the smarts for the NHL, but his speed, shot and hands are really lacking.
Agree 100%.

You can't question his work ethic or dedication. My beef is more with Taylor for giving him an asinine multi-year deal. There are very, very few teams that would give Derek Armstrong even a sniff at the NHL, but LA guarantees him a roster spot.

I would like to know what conceivable milestones where written into that contract in order to guarantee another year. Show up on time? Bring the Molson to the Taylor family picnic?

Army is exactly like Mike Weaver: a heady player with great heart, but held back by physical limitation. In Armstrong's case, he just isn't agile enough to capitalize on the chances he creates.

I do want the Army supporters to answer this question: How many other centers in this league are so poor defensively that the coach is forced to have a winger like Cammalleri take over his role in the defensive zone? That is exactly what happened last year.

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07-19-2006, 06:30 AM
  #47
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It was really only up until probably last season that the Kings had any depth in their system and even last season was a stretch. You folks had the opportunity to see Matt Ryan, Connor James, Noah Clarke as well as others. Armstrong provides depth that would typically allow these guys to stay in Manchester to fill their supporting roles in the development of the Tambellini's, Kopitar's, Tukonen's, Pushkarev's, Kanko's, etc.

Folks are always quick to cry bring-up (insert first 3-rounds pick so he's got to be ready and he'll surely be better than Armstrong here). Many of us in Manchester have tried to tell folks that there was a lack of quality depth in the system for years. We're reminded of how good this guy or that guy looked at development camp. Well I would hope that a guy like O'Sullivan or Kopitar or Kanko or Petiot or Pushkarev or...would look good in a camp that is made up of mostly junior and college players.

Folks can bag on Armstrong 24-7 but really it comes down to a lack of NHL ready depth in the system that was caused in part by previous management (pre-Taylor) trading away picks and such trying to win in what was the today, rather than build from within.

From an asset management standpoint, it makes more sense to keep Armstrong in L.A. rather than placing him on waivers in an attempt to send him to Manchester. I have little doubt that if exposed to waivers, Armstrong would be claimed by another NHL team.

From a CAP standpoint maybe his $760,000 is a bit high, HOWEVER it's probably in-line with what you'd expect to have to pay a top round draft pick if he was in L.A. Also, the $75k rule, has caused many players that would typically be filling the Armstrong slots at closer to the league min. salary to head for Europe. So what will it be? Noah Clarke or Matt Ryan at the min. to gain a few $100g of CAP space or Armstrong?


Last edited by King Blazer: 07-19-2006 at 08:15 AM.
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Old
07-19-2006, 11:31 AM
  #48
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I think the quick answer to the question is that no rider can dominate a race like the Tour for 7 years without people wondering whether there's some unfair advantage going on. The French, in this case, are just being more open about their suspicions despite anthing resembling proof of doping. The real jerk in this situation is Greg LeMonde, as he's been shooting off his mouth.... Wait, what are we talking about?

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