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Old
07-20-2006, 08:50 PM
  #101
Willis
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Wow the misinformation in here is amazing.

Here is the population numbers from stats canada for provinces. Basically Alberta grew as more than Quebec and only has 40% the population. I don't think Quebec or Manitoba are booming population wise.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/060629/d060629d.htm

Here are the economic numbers from stats canada for provinces. They show Quebec or Manitoba have no where near the economic growth to be booming. Look at Alberta and Ontario.

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/econ15.htm

by the way, I also note that the economic numbers in Alberta have massively improved since then remember no provincial debt, and Oil has skyrocketed since early 2005


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07-20-2006, 08:56 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willis View Post
Wow the misinformation in here is amazing.
You confuse the province with the city. Quebec city is doing much better than the province, even if not good enough to support an NHL team.

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07-20-2006, 09:37 PM
  #103
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Uh no. Arsenal vs Tottenham in the EPL is by far the worst. There have been street fights and near riots between their supporters and the situation is not helped by having their home stadiums a few miles apart in London. And this rivalry dates back to like 1919. Way, way worse than anything the NHL can serve up.

Celtic vs Rangers in Scotland is the biggest rivalry of all time in any sport.
Then i'd go for Madrid vs Barcelona in Spain.

No rivalry in north american sports comes even close to those of european football, it's one of the bad things about having such passionate fans, but man just hear them sing, it's incredible, always dreamed habs fan would be more like that eheh.

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07-21-2006, 12:33 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Willis View Post
Wow the misinformation in here is amazing.

Here is the population numbers from stats canada for provinces. Basically Alberta grew as more than Quebec and only has 40% the population. I don't think Quebec or Manitoba are booming population wise.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/060629/d060629d.htm

Here are the economic numbers from stats canada for provinces. They show Quebec or Manitoba have no where near the economic growth to be booming. Look at Alberta and Ontario.

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/econ15.htm

by the way, I also note that the economic numbers in Alberta have massively improved since then remember no provincial debt, and Oil has skyrocketed since early 2005
Province is the word here.

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07-21-2006, 12:56 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Burnside_1 View Post
I've been living here all my life, and to be honest it seems you live in a complete different city, it's astonishing. It's weird you're seeing such a boom in this town, because like i posted before, every single person with broad interets and ambition I know is fleeing from here.
How do you justify the double in appartment price then? Too many building destroyed? Or much more likely, increased demand? Im not saying the exode is done, witch is what you seem to think im saying. Its not done, but what I want to get across is those native jobs are replaced by immigrants, instead of our educated folks going to Montreal. The problem this year, next year and the year after is our capacity to provide workers will be lower than our capacity to fill the job openings. It doesnt mean the elite will stay here, but if the population start growing because of a bigger immigration, we will one day reach a breaking point where Montreal will have less appeal or the difference will be smaller.

Just an example, one of my friend is lawyer who finished his class 3 years ago, tried to find a work here, nothing! Last week he was hired, house paid, big bonus to move back here, because suddenly the boomers are starting to retire and the needs superseed the offer. Same thing for the medical staff etc.


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Oh man this is not optimism, it's just ridiculous. I understand you have really good intentions but hell...
Again your reading what you want, stop painting me with your speculation about what you read. Read why I gave this example and you will understand the sense in witch I was saying it.

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Originally Posted by Burnside_1 View Post
It seems that everything in this town should lead to the coming of a hockey team and a new arena. It's really weird how you think, you sound like a talk-radio host/sport fan, that's the closest i've ever been to hearing what you say lol.
Never said that, Im clearly realist about it. Theres major hurdles to surpass and probably in 5 years we will be even better placed, you guys seem to think my portray of the city is like rosy rosy. We have many challenges to surpass and I think a CFL team is a less costly first try in the major leagues.

All the things I have said in this thread is in the context of a sugar dady paying for an arena and the concession. In this context, for this guy, I think Quebec City is a great destination and a big hockey market, with a low growth potential compared to say Seatle, Kansas City or Houston, but on the other hand a bigger market, today, in 5 years, in 10 years than those cities for hockey. If you bank on a global TV deal like the NFL sometime in the future, Quebec City could be a nice asset for the league. And the Redbull boss would be an hell of a proprio to have and Bettman would be foolish to block a move to Quebec City if this guy wants to get into it.

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But yeah, I understand you really want it and willing to put your money where your mouth is (which is a rarity around here), so I it's cool with me.
Ill say it already I would be the first to maybe buy a box with my small company.(Not the big ones if theres different size, those for the small companies.) Or at the minimum plenty of season tickets.

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07-21-2006, 12:10 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
How do you justify the double in appartment price then? Too many building destroyed? Or much more likely, increased demand?
There was a global North American housing boom throughout the '90s that left Québec city utterly unaffected. When my parents sold their house in 2002, they had to sell for the same price in current dollars that they bought it in 1987. The housing boom is nothing exceptional. Every city went through it, québec city is just late catching up as usual.

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07-21-2006, 12:13 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
There was a global North American housing boom throughout the '90s that left Québec city utterly unaffected. When my parents sold their house in 2002, they had to sell for the same price in current dollars that they bought it in 1987. The housing boom is nothing exceptional. Every city went through it, québec city is just late catching up as usual.
For price to go up, you need more demand. A housing boom dont happen because its a trend. Funny idea.

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07-21-2006, 12:31 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
For price to go up, you need more demand. A housing boom dont happen because its a trend. Funny idea.
It's part of a global real estate boom. You're trying to make it out like Québec city is going through an exceptional housing boom that isn't going on in other cities, and thus that the Penguins are going to start the 2006-2007 season playing in the Colisée, with all the 100K$ corporate boxes sold out to Tunisian civil servants and the Colisée being renamed Colisée Ashton.

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07-21-2006, 01:40 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
It's part of a global real estate boom. You're trying to make it out like Québec city is going through an exceptional housing boom that isn't going on in other cities
I never said that. For the record, Winnipeg is growing well, like all the canadian cities. Alberta is leading the pack because of the petroleum money.

All growth are fuelled by imbalances, its been 15 years of balance towards Montreal, its normal that the system of growth swing back the other way in a cycle of around 20 years. Our cycles in Quebec City have been historically small and this one will be small as well, unless we reach a breaking point where we change the momentum in a significant fashion. Will it happen? too soon to tell. We will know more after the boomers have all retired and the situation is more normal. If it doesnt happen, this short burst will be followed by 20 years of low growth/ economic morosity as always.

Anyway I dont know why I try to explain all this, the number of economically savvy individuals I guess is fairly limited here. Its like trying to sell Minnesota Wild tickets in front of the Centre Bell.

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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
and thus that the Penguins are going to start the 2006-2007 season playing in the Colisée, with all the 100K$ corporate boxes sold out to Tunisian civil servants and the Colisée being renamed Colisée Ashton.
Never said any of what ur talking about, just because you disagree with the general concept that Quebec could have a team, theres no need for dissing, just state your opinion like I did. Sounds like someone short on arguments.

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07-21-2006, 01:52 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Winnepeg is 4 times the size of Quebec City.
Population of Winnipeg's region: 706 900
Population of Quebec's region: 717 600 people

Population of Winnipeg (city): 690 100
Population of Quebec (city): 696 300

So you are wrong

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07-21-2006, 02:01 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by jpchabby View Post
Population of Winnipeg's region: 706 900
Population of Quebec's region: 717 600 people

Population of Winnipeg (city): 690 100
Population of Quebec (city): 696 300

So you are wrong
Where did you get that number?

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07-21-2006, 02:10 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post

Anyway I dont know why I try to explain all this, the number of economically savvy individuals I guess is fairly limited here. Its like trying to sell Minnesota Wild tickets in front of the Centre Bell.
I'd put you in that group, to be honest. Simply because there is lower unemployment and a housing boom when compared to a time period (1995) when the city had just begun recovering from a recession (due to the time-lag factor of being a secondary/tertiary economic market) doesn't mean that an NHL franchise will do any better than it did before.

Now, if you want to base your arguments on the fact that the financial model of the entire league has changed and that this will allow small markets such as Quebec to survive and even thrive, then you're talking. However, you instead argued from a point of view that Quebec is somehow enjoying unprecented growth (which is wholly debatable since most of your indicators are hearsay) and that it is the best hockey market not in the league, which is also wholly debatable.

Debate does not invalidate your arguments, but allowing for debate would show that your arguments have more basis in reality; instead you're not even debating the issues, you're declaring that you know more than everyone else (about Quebec or about economics); i.e. "I know more than you, so there", which won't endear you to anyone.

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07-21-2006, 02:10 PM
  #113
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All growth are fuelled by imbalances, its been 15 years of balance towards Montreal, its normal that the system of growth swing back the other way in a cycle of around 20 years. Our cycles in Quebec City have been historically small and this one will be small as well, unless we reach a breaking point where we change the momentum in a significant fashion. Will it happen? too soon to tell. We will know more after the boomers have all retired and the situation is more normal. If it doesnt happen, this short burst will be followed by 20 years of low growth/ economic morosity as always.

Anyway I dont know why I try to explain all this, the number of economically savvy individuals I guess is fairly limited here. Its like trying to sell Minnesota Wild tickets in front of the Centre Bell.
Dude, you don't know anything about economics if you think that the economics of Québec works like a pendulum between Mtl and Qc city and that now it's quebec's turn to shine. Montréal grows more because it's younger, more dynamic, more diverse, more oriented towards growth industries.

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Never said any of what ur talking about, just because you disagree with the general concept that Quebec could have a team, theres no need for dissing, just state your opinion like I did. Sounds like someone short on arguments.
Hey, I'm not the one who thinks Sidney Crosby will be taking the opening faceoff at PEPS glace B in October. You're the one who thinks that.

I would really like to see a team in Québec again, but I disagree that it's going to happen within the next few months.

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07-21-2006, 02:11 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Where did you get that number?
According to Wikipedia, the city pop is 528,595, while the met area pop he gave is the same (717,600).

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07-21-2006, 02:24 PM
  #115
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According to Wikipedia, the city pop is 528,595, while the met area pop he gave is the same (717,600).
Strange...On statscan it's listed as around 160,000...

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07-21-2006, 02:26 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Strange...On statscan it's listed as around 160,000...
That was for the municipality of Québec. It's like saying that Montréal's population doesn't include Westmount and TMR. Québec's MTA is around 700,000, pretty much the same as Winnipeg.

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07-21-2006, 02:28 PM
  #117
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Strange...On statscan it's listed as around 160,000...
There's no way Quebec is only 160,000 people. Its much bigger than that.

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07-21-2006, 02:29 PM
  #118
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I'd put you in that group, to be honest. Simply because there is lower unemployment and a housing boom when compared to a time period (1995) when the city had just begun recovering from a recession (due to the time-lag factor of being a secondary/tertiary economic market) doesn't mean that an NHL franchise will do any better than it did before.
The franchise wasnt doing bad with what we had, how do you know it wouldnt had work with a new coliseum? Theres only so much money you can make with a 15k statium. For us to have a team, we need a new arena. Low unemployement and an housing boom are strong economic indicators. Quebec City didnt had a hard recession, affected yes, but the advantage of being a city relying on public service is being much better at resisting recessions than private sectors cities. I'm not talking about the post-recession normal growth here, im talking about the extra growth because of the factors I have presented earlier.

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Now, if you want to base your arguments on the fact that the financial model of the entire league has changed and that this will allow small markets such as Quebec to survive and even thrive, then you're talking. However, you instead argued from a point of view that Quebec is somehow enjoying unprecented growth (which is wholly debatable since most of your indicators are hearsay) and that it is the best hockey market not in the league, which is also wholly debatable.
I did talk about that in 2 of my earlier posts. I wont repost everything I have posted before every single reply.


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Originally Posted by Montrealer View Post
Debate does not invalidate your arguments, but allowing for debate would show that your arguments have more basis in reality; instead you're not even debating the issues, you're declaring that you know more than everyone else (about Quebec or about economics); i.e. "I know more than you, so there", which won't endear you to anyone.
Debating without argument is debating for nothing. Sarcasm isnt debate and isnt argument. Someone implying an housing boom is a trend doesnt know 2 cents about economics. And no, I dont know more than anyone, im just presenting my opinion like you just did.


Last edited by SOLR: 07-21-2006 at 02:47 PM. Reason: Spelling $(@*$(@
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07-21-2006, 02:29 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
That was for the municipality of Québec. It's like saying that Montréal's population doesn't include Westmount and TMR. Québec's MTA is around 700,000, pretty much the same as Winnipeg.
Gotcha, thanks for the clarification.

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07-21-2006, 02:44 PM
  #120
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Dude, you don't know anything about economics if you think that the economics of Québec works like a pendulum between Mtl and Qc city and that now it's quebec's turn to shine. Montréal grows more because it's younger, more dynamic, more diverse, more oriented towards growth industries.
In the 1960's Quebec City hired 200k+ public servant, they are now retiring and we need to replace them. The problem is we cant with our population/worker output do that. Thats why the pendulum is on our side for a little while. A lot of montrealer come here to work because of the jobs being offered.

Again your speculating on what my opinion is. Quebec City to continue to grow after the boomers retirement needs to get much bigger in the private sector. I never said otherwise.(And I intend to be part of it) Montreal is a great city, most of my clients are there and in Toronto, if you think I dont know whats going outside my small city...

There was a time where you had to be in Montreal to do business, its still mostly true but todays global market gives us more chances to compete.

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Hey, I'm not the one who thinks Sidney Crosby will be taking the opening faceoff at PEPS glace B in October. You're the one who thinks that.
Not at all, stop trying to convince yourself or others about it, its not the case. All im saying its that with a sugar daddy, the current economic of the city, the league, a new arena it can happen and it can be good for hockey and it could work. The list of things needed to get it done is kinda terrifying.

Critizing us for our dreams is really lame. Of course its easy to dream about having a team back and one with sid the kid would be just over the top. However, it doesnt mean that our dreams will become reality and I assure you that after all the hits we are getting in this city we know that. Your stereotyping thats what your doing. Much easier all in the same basket right?

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I would really like to see a team in Québec again, but I disagree that it's going to happen within the next few months.
I agree 99% with you. The 1% is left to the crazy sugar daddy that you or I dont control. Currently theres a concession in jeopardy and it might move, where? That will depend of the buyer if the concession. More likely in Kansas City, Houston, Insert american market, Quebec. Correctly if Im wrong but I think Houston, KC dont have an NHL arena either. So the choice might be more open than we know, but who really know beside the guy with the big bucks.


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07-21-2006, 02:50 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
The franchise wasnt doing bad with what we had, how do you know it wouldnt had work with a new coliseum? Theres only so much money you can make with a 15k statium. For us to have a team, we need a new arena. Low unemployement and an housing boom are strong economic indicators. Quebec City didnt had a hard recession, affected yes, but the advantage of being a city relying on public service is being much more better at resisting recession than private sectors cities. I'm not talking about the post-recession normal growth here, im talking about the extra growth because of the factor I have presented earlier.
I'm not saying it won't work, for heaven's sake! I'm saying that the new league financial reality is a much better reason than the economic indicators you continually hammer down everyone's throats.

Quote:
I did talk about that in 2 of my earlier posts. I wont repost everything I have post before every single reply.
The point I'm making is that it's the major reason a franchise would work in Quebec, not simply a minor reason in comparison to the economic indicators or the potential 2 million Quebecois who apparently would immediately pledge allegiance to the new team.

Quote:
Debating without argument is debating for nothing. Sarcasm isnt debate and isnt argument. Someone implying an housing boom is a trend doesnt know 2 cents about economics. And know I dont know more than anyone, im just presenting my opinion like you just did.
A housing boom is not a trend? Seriously? I guess I don't know 2 cents about economics, then.

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07-21-2006, 02:56 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
I agree 99% with you. The 1% is left to the crazy sugar daddy that you or I dont control. Currently theres a concession in jeopardy and it might move, where? That will depend of the buyer if the concession. More likely in Kansas City, Houston, Insert american market, Quebec. Correctly if Im wrong but I think Houston, KC dont have an NHL arena either. So the choice might be more open.
Hey man, I'm not the one who's saying that Marc-André Fleury will be lining up in front of the goal at aréna Les Saules and that I saw Sergei Gonchar shopping for a house in St-Augustin last weekend. just jokin'

I really hope Québec can grow enough to host a team soon. The rivalry will be reignited instantaneously. However, I am completely against putting any public funds into the arena. If an arena is built, it's going to have to be because a private investor believes it's worth his money.

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07-21-2006, 03:07 PM
  #123
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I'm not saying it won't work, for heaven's sake! I'm saying that the new league financial reality is a much better reason than the economic indicators you continually hammer down everyone's throats.
I have stated the same thing. Today's CBA was presented by Marcel Aubut initially. He was the first to talk about cost control.


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The point I'm making is that it's the major reason a franchise would work in Quebec, not simply a minor reason in comparison to the economic indicators or the potential 2 million Quebecois who apparently would immediately pledge allegiance to the new team.
I disagree with this, I dont think its one factor over the other, its an addition of all of them, a momentum, and even in this new cap world Quebec City would be operating with an artifical cap like Buffalo.


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A housing boom is not a trend? Seriously? I guess I don't know 2 cents about economics, then.
Demand fuel a trend, then the trend might take over late in a boom, when that happens, the trend will bust sooner or later because demand isnt there anymore. So Demand is the underlying factor. What Im saying is it false to pretend that because theres a momentum / trend in one city it will spread to others because its an unstoppable trend. All those who sold there house here between 1995 and 2002 will tell you there was no demand.

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07-21-2006, 03:19 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Hey man, I'm not the one who's saying that Marc-André Fleury will be lining up in front of the goal at aréna Les Saules and that I saw Sergei Gonchar shopping for a house in St-Augustin last weekend. just jokin'
You mean Malkin will be at Dagobert b-boying in the centre of the dancefloor after every game?

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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
I really hope Québec can grow enough to host a team soon. The rivalry will be reignited instantaneously. However, I am completely against putting any public funds into the arena. If an arena is built, it's going to have to be because a private investor believes it's worth his money.
I agree it would be much better coming from the private and I dont want our provincial government in this. But the feds should really get a clue. Giving 1.5b more in sport infrastructure in the west for the Vancouver Olympic bid when all those infrastructure are already in Calgary. In the name of East-West justice, we should get some of that in the future.(Maybe not Quebec City, but at least Quebec, NE, NB, Ontario) If our next Olympics in 25-30 years are not in the east I'll go bunkers.

(I was already bunkers when the city I least consider a winter city in our country got the games, but thats another debate. I wont be fun if its 10 celsius outside at the winter olympic games!)

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07-21-2006, 03:19 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
I have stated the same thing. Today's CBA was presented by Marcel Aubut initially. He was the first to talk about cost control.
So we agree.


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I disagree with this, I dont think its one factor over the other, its an addition of all of them, a momentum, and even in this new cap world Quebec City would be operating with an artifical cap like Buffalo.
Agreed as well. Still, I personally believe it to be the most important factor.


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Demand fuel a trend, then the trend might take over late in a boom, when that happens, the trend will bust sooner or later because demand isnt there anymore. So Demand is the underlying factor. What Im saying is it false to pretend that because theres a momentum / trend in one city it will spread to others because its an unstoppable trend. All those who sold there house here between 1995 and 2002 will tell you there was no demand.
Ah, you're tying in "trend" to the other poster who said it was a general economic trend that spread to Quebec. I don't necessarily disagree with that completely, but in the sense I was using it I meant a local economic trend brought about by local conditions.

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