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What's up with Toots?

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Old
07-21-2006, 03:56 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
Maybe it's just me but Tyutin reminds me of a young Malakhov. Malakhov had a nice career but I always thought he could've/should've turned into something much better. I wouldn't mind it if the Rangers signed him to a 2 year deal but I wouldn't go longer than that.


I don't think Tyutin is untouchable though...

I've said that for years and agree 100%.

People take that as a talent comparison and for me it's more of tapping into the amount of talent each has.

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07-21-2006, 04:00 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
with so many talented players, as you know Edge. All the talent, but don't have the head to put it together (not saying Tyutin won't, he's only 22, but my one issue with him is consistency and intensity, and I think he had similar issues in Hartford too). Renney challenged him and he responded, but that only lasted so long, and he finished the season with such a whimper. But again, 22, first NHL season; can't be too hard on the guy.
Unfortunatly that's his MO.

When I say that I get the usual response of "it's only one NHL season" but that's not what makes me say that. It's been like that for years, the OHL, Russia, the AHL.

Always the same thing, so for me it's not just because of one NHL season but rather what is a pattern at every level he's played at.

Tyutin, especially at the OHL and AHL levels, has the talent to be ont of the top defenseman in the league. But I never saw him like that.

Tyutin has all the tools, personally I think it's underestimating to not think he has some of the top tools of any younh defenseman from the last 5 years. The problem is and has been his inability to put the whole picture together.

What you get is a good, sometimes great defenseman who blends in far too often.

This isn't a new thing that has just happened at the NHL level and it's something I've been trying to point out for years.

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07-21-2006, 04:10 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I think the Rangers wanted him to play through things and see how he responded to challenges. He responded well to Renney's first challenge (at least first public challenge). I don't know if there was a second, but as a coach, it's tough to keep doing the same thing as it gets repetitive. I think he belonged in the NHL to take his rookie lumps with the big boys. There may've been a couple times where it would've been good for him to take a step back, perhaps sitting. The playoffs were a different story - I didn't think he belonged out there. It wouldn't have been a difference maker, but you need to put your best team out there and I think even Ozo may've been an improvement over him in the playoffs. But again, hopefully he turns that experience into a positive. I hate sounding overly negative about the guy, and I don't want people to think I don't recognize he's 22, but my problem from when he was 20 was his consistency and intesity level, even at the AHL level, which reminds me of Malakhov, a player who never reached his full potential, yet was a useful NHLer for a long time.
I agree. I also think the Rangers did the right thing by playing him in important situations throughout the year. I don't think playing with Kaspar is easy because kaspar has the bad habit of roaming out of his postion. I also don't want to kill Tyutin because he is so young and is still adapting the NHL. (which i think all his critics understand btw i don't know why you can't question a young players game on this board)

This season isn't make or break for Tyutin by any means but he needs to show marked improvements in many areas of his game. With the minor upgrades on defense Tyutin needs to step up for the Rangers to be an improved teams. We know what we have with our other 5 guys but if Tyutin can elevate his game the Rangers will be that much better...

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07-21-2006, 04:18 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
I agree. I also think the Rangers did the right thing by playing him in important situations throughout the year. I don't think playing with Kaspar is easy because kaspar has the bad habit of roaming out of his postion. I also don't want to kill Tyutin because he is so young and is still adapting the NHL. (which i think all his critics understand btw i don't know why you can't question a young players game on this board)

This season isn't make or break for Tyutin by any means but he needs to show marked improvements in many areas of his game. With the minor upgrades on defense Tyutin needs to step up for the Rangers to be an improved teams. We know what we have with our other 5 guys but if Tyutin can elevate his game the Rangers will be that much better...
Oh, trust me, I have no problem questioning young players' games. For example, I was never a Dom Moore fan and I don't like Tomas Pock. In Tyutin's case, however, he's younger than those guys and, more importantly, at various times I've seen him flash skill at every aspect of the game. Thus, I have hope that he will develop into a well-rounded 1st pair defenseman.

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07-21-2006, 07:44 PM
  #55
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The guy is 22 years of age -- productive NHL defenseman at either ends of the ice at that age are few and far between. The Footes and Prongers of the world didn't become stars until later; I think we should give him more time.

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07-21-2006, 08:52 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by dakose View Post
The guy is 22 years of age -- productive NHL defenseman at either ends of the ice at that age are few and far between. The Footes and Prongers of the world didn't become stars until later; I think we should give him more time.
Thing is, if a player has "it" it's usually a matter of transitioning it.

They show it at the earlier stages and it's a matter of making those things happen at the higher level.

In Tyutins case the problem he is running into is that he was inconsistent at the lower levels. At the OHL he could pull that and still put up 50 points. At the AHL he could pull it less, so on and so forth.

He is still young, but he needs to light a fire under his *** to be perfectly blunt.

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07-21-2006, 10:06 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Thing is, if a player has "it" it's usually a matter of transitioning it.

They show it at the earlier stages and it's a matter of making those things happen at the higher level.

In Tyutins case the problem he is running into is that he was inconsistent at the lower levels. At the OHL he could pull that and still put up 50 points. At the AHL he could pull it less, so on and so forth.

He is still young, but he needs to light a fire under his *** to be perfectly blunt.

Hopefully thats what Kasparaitis is actually doing, cause it seems like he is taking Tyutin under his wing. Hopefully it pans out...time will tell

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07-21-2006, 10:51 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Thing is, if a player has "it" it's usually a matter of transitioning it.

They show it at the earlier stages and it's a matter of making those things happen at the higher level.

In Tyutins case the problem he is running into is that he was inconsistent at the lower levels. At the OHL he could pull that and still put up 50 points. At the AHL he could pull it less, so on and so forth.

He is still young, but he needs to light a fire under his *** to be perfectly blunt.
How many points do you think he should put up? If you peg him as being a Phaneuf or Lidstrom, I'm almost certain you will set yourself up for disappointment. I envisioned him being the 3-4 d-man and a player who gets PP time, and the rate at which he is going he looks like he will develop into that.

True he has been incosistent, but maybe playing more and getting more comfortable in one league, albeit the NHL, is just what Toots needs.

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07-22-2006, 12:46 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dakose View Post
How many points do you think he should put up? If you peg him as being a Phaneuf or Lidstrom, I'm almost certain you will set yourself up for disappointment. I envisioned him being the 3-4 d-man and a player who gets PP time, and the rate at which he is going he looks like he will develop into that.

True he has been incosistent, but maybe playing more and getting more comfortable in one league, albeit the NHL, is just what Toots needs.

Seems like half the board thought tyutin was going to be a star his first season...the guy is a god damn rookie who played like a rookie last season and now he thrown under the bus it seems by some. Guess its just the way some people look at players, its very unfair to be honest. Let the kid develop a couple years in the NHL before your put or even predict the verdict out on him.

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07-22-2006, 11:49 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
Seems like half the board thought tyutin was going to be a star his first season...the guy is a god damn rookie who played like a rookie last season and now he thrown under the bus it seems by some. Guess its just the way some people look at players, its very unfair to be honest. Let the kid develop a couple years in the NHL before your put or even predict the verdict out on him.
predicting players future is part of posting on the board..the guy that runs the prospect poll should no better..

he played like a rookie but he got worse as the season got longer.

"some people look at players?" so if we all thought tyutin was going to be a "God" that would be ok right?

yeah if tyutin has another crap year he will have very little value to the rangers anymore. the end of next season will be the end of his 4th pro year and enough time to judge what he is going to be..

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07-22-2006, 12:02 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
predicting players future is part of posting on the board..the guy that runs the prospect poll should no better..

he played like a rookie but he got worse as the season got longer.

"some people look at players?" so if we all thought tyutin was going to be a "God" that would be ok right?

yeah if tyutin has another crap year he will have very little value to the rangers anymore. the end of next season will be the end of his 4th pro year and enough time to judge what he is going to be..
If you think Tyutin played like crap as a rookie then . And the polls are just for fun discussions, if anyone takes them serious then your looking way too into them. And there is a difference in predicting the future of a player and already having ruling out on someone.

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07-22-2006, 12:13 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
If you think Tyutin played like crap as a rookie then . And the polls are just for fun discussions, if anyone takes them serious then your looking way too into them. And there is a difference in predicting the future of a player and already having ruling out on someone.
maybe crap is to strong a word but he didn't play that great. infact i outlined reasons above as to why tyutins play may have not been good at times this past year. the point is he didn't get better as the season went along..

if you take this thread serious than you are looking to much into it. none of us know his true potential..

most people in this thread didn't rule tyutin out

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07-22-2006, 12:19 PM
  #63
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I keep hearing "blend all the toold together"--- food for thought, he's 22 yrs old.

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07-22-2006, 05:00 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dakose View Post
How many points do you think he should put up? If you peg him as being a Phaneuf or Lidstrom, I'm almost certain you will set yourself up for disappointment. I envisioned him being the 3-4 d-man and a player who gets PP time, and the rate at which he is going he looks like he will develop into that.

True he has been incosistent, but maybe playing more and getting more comfortable in one league, albeit the NHL, is just what Toots needs.
From a talent standpoint, Tyutin has 15 goal 55-60 point talent.

Always had.

And a 3-4 defenseman I have no problem, but A LOT of people thought this kid was going to be an anchor on the blueline for years to come. As time has gone that expectation has certainly gone down, but it really wasn't all that long ago that it was a very common thought.

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07-22-2006, 05:02 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
Seems like half the board thought tyutin was going to be a star his first season...the guy is a god damn rookie who played like a rookie last season and now he thrown under the bus it seems by some. Guess its just the way some people look at players, its very unfair to be honest. Let the kid develop a couple years in the NHL before your put or even predict the verdict out on him.
Don't really think he's being thrown under the bus, so much as reality is starting to catch up with the hype that was placed on the kid 3 or 4 years.

No one hates him, just more people are starting to realize he wasn't going to be this star/steal that some people jumped up down claiming he was.

I think it's a lot of frustration. You see how talented the kid is, but it's not always there. And that is something that dates back long before the NHL.

The easy answer is pointing to him being an NHL rookies, the same play at the OHL and AHL levels is a bit harder to dismiss.

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07-22-2006, 05:03 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by 51tyutin51 View Post
I keep hearing "blend all the toold together"--- food for thought, he's 22 yrs old.
Food for thought, it's the same complaints about him since he was 18 years old. Where there is smoke....

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07-22-2006, 05:15 PM
  #67
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So your telling me a 22 year old should be fully developed already? Or better yet your telling me an 18 yr old should be fully developed? His play in Russia brought no complaints..this is just the Tyutin haters "who dont mind trading him" that keep saying he is inconsistent and so on. Give it a break and stop asking for a tyutin trade to come back and bite you in the ***. The kid has shown his top level; of game, hes playing in NYC...not nashville or pitsburgh or pheonix or atlanta. This is NYC...most pressuresome fans..most expecting fans. Its still a transition for him and once its complete you will have a fetisov esque player. We better lock him up long term.

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07-22-2006, 05:22 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
Seems like half the board thought tyutin was going to be a star his first season...the guy is a god damn rookie who played like a rookie last season and now he thrown under the bus it seems by some. Guess its just the way some people look at players, its very unfair to be honest. Let the kid develop a couple years in the NHL before your put or even predict the verdict out on him.
Which is fine but his play does not make him a player that should be getting over 2 million now...he should sign a 1 or 2 year deal for 1 mil. a year and prove himself first instead of looking to cash in now

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07-22-2006, 05:30 PM
  #69
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Jesus, who said he's looking for $2 mill? let's not hang the guy over random salary speculation

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07-22-2006, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 51tyutin51 View Post
So your telling me a 22 year old should be fully developed already?
Some things can be taught/developed on the ice, and some cannot. There is a difference between a kid that needs to learn through experience how to best position himself, where to go to receive passes, sticking to the system, and so on, as compared to the mental makeup that drives a player and enables him to succeed. Competitive sports is not just about having skill.

No one here has said he won't develop, but there is a question about his mental makeup, and that isn't something you learn on the ice. That is not something that naturally develops through playing. And that is the problem here - you can't throw him on the ice for three years with a great skills coach and expect this to improve.

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07-22-2006, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Khelvan View Post

No one here has said he won't develop, but there is a question about his mental makeup, and that isn't something you learn on the ice. That is not something that naturally develops through playing. And that is the problem here - you can't throw him on the ice for three years with a great skills coach and expect this to improve.
You are absolutley correct, Khevlan: sports is more mind over matter. The skills you have are nothing if you don't have the mental aptitude to put it together.

So -- let me ask you this. How did you, or any of the doubters have the grounds to raise the "question about his mental makeup"? Have you talked to Fedor before? Asked him how he feels? Asked his coaches, trainers or team psychologist how he is progressing mentally?

Unless you have an inside scoop to the team which would make you a god among these boards, I am assuming you haven't and do what all sports fans do, which is draw conclusions of what an athlete is thinking mentally by what you are observing of him physically. Ironic isn't it?

And as for not being able to develop your mental game on the ice, I would think many athletes on this board would disagree with that assumption.

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07-22-2006, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dakose View Post
So -- let me ask you this. How did you, or any of the doubters have the grounds to raise the "question about his mental makeup"? Have you talked to Fedor before? Asked him how he feels? Asked his coaches, trainers or team psychologist how he is progressing mentally?

Unless you have an inside scoop to the team which would make you a god among these boards, I am assuming you haven't and do what all sports fans do, which is draw conclusions of what an athlete is thinking mentally by what you are observing of him physically. Ironic isn't it?
No judgement about a player's mental makeup is going to be foolproof. Hours of surveys and interviews given to/with draftees/prospects isn't foolproof in judging such things. Even long-term therapy isn't "foolproof."

However, one may make heurisitc judgements based on behavior, demeanor, past history, and comparisons with previous players based on the above. One does not need to be a "god" to use one's brain and think logically about such things. It isn't drawing conclusions of what an athlete is "thinking." Observing him "physically" is only a small part of trying to judge an athlete's ability to handle the mental part of the game.

Please notice that I said "there is a question," not "I doubt he can handle things mentally." Please don't put words in my mouth. Frankly I haven't seen enough of him to make such a judgement, though what others who have seen a lot of him have said seems to fit with what we see, or don't see, on the ice. I was merely trying to explain the distinction between a player's development as a player, and the less tangible aspects of a player's game; these are by necessity approached in different ways.

What do you think is easier to overcome: Not having any experience or intrinsic knowledge about how the game is played on NA ice, at the NHL level, within a particular system, etc., or lacking motivation and drive to do the work necessary to excel as a professional athlete, or a similar "mental makeup" problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dakose View Post
And as for not being able to develop your mental game on the ice, I would think many athletes on this board would disagree with that assumption.
And I would think that said athletes aren't catching the distinction that this athlete is making.

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07-22-2006, 10:50 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Khelvan View Post
What do you think is easier to overcome: Not having any experience or intrinsic knowledge about how the game is played on NA ice, at the NHL level, within a particular system, etc., or lacking motivation and drive to do the work necessary to excel as a professional athlete, or a similar "mental makeup" problem?
That is a question that can only be answered at the individual level-- people mature at different rates, respond to challenges in different ways and respond differently to different motivation tactics. All I am saying is it is unfair to cast Tyutin's limitations off as some mental block that he will never be able to over come over time; just as it would be unfair to cast him off if he had an unaccurate slapshot as something that could not be remedied with practice.

I just feel like people like to say every prospect failed because he lacked the heart and motivation to overcome both tangible and intangible limitations, which I find hard to beleive- people fail for different reasons, if you have all the heart and motivation in the world, it won't make you sure fire star if you don't have arms and legs to shoot and skate with.

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07-23-2006, 08:52 AM
  #74
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The problem I have is that most of the posters on this thread for some reason feel that by 22 the flashes he's shown aren't enough to give him the benefit of the doubt that he can round out his physical and mental game. I mean this isn't Jamie Lundmark who's in his mid-twenties and has been teasing us for 5+ years... (in fact this is a player who's already shown much more at a much harder position at a much earlier age than Jamie ever did).

Consider a baseball parallel: Alfonso Soriano. Gifted with all sorts of tools. But had the label (fairly) attached to him that he was stubborn. He wouldn't walk, struck out way too much and was a mediocre fielder at best. It was fairly obvious that he was in love with his own statistics and he was exposed in the 2003 playoffs as having a massive blind spot for the down and away slider. Then, to cap it all off, it is widely known that every team he's played for has asked him to transition to the OF, but he had always demanded to play 2B, which he considered his "rightful" position. This year, the Washington Nats - a team with nothing to lose - acquired him and in spring training basically said you do it our way or you don't play. Now at the age of 30 (the equivalent of about 27 in hockey - which is, I grant you, a couple of years later than it should have taken), he's having his best offensive season ever by far (.947 OPS vs. a previous career high of .879, already has 30 HR and 25 SB as of July 22 - not to mention 5 more BBs than his previous career high for an entire YEAR) in a lousy lineup in the worst hitter's park in baseball. He is leading baseball in OF assists and is the hottest commodity on the trade market - and the Nats are now talking like they want to find a way to keep him (although they've got to move him in my opinion).

Soriano is a classic case of "pulling it all together" and I think anyone who's watched him closely would agree that most of it was in his head. Yes, he should have figured this all out back when he was 27/28, but the example still serves to prove my point. I can understand why the Yankees traded him (for arguably the best player in baseball, despite ARod's recent struggles) - a perennial contender can't afford to struggle with a super talent that matures 3 years late.

But a rebuilding Rangers can, and should, give Tyutin the time to see if he can pull it all together - ESPECIALLY because he's still several years away from the age when he "should" pull it all together. If he was 25, I'd be agreeing with more of the posters, but at 22 you've got to hold on to him to see if the flashes become the consistent game.

He's not untouchable, but I say he should only be moved as part of a package for a potential first line C or a D who has ALREADY established himself as a 1st pairing guy.


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07-23-2006, 10:37 AM
  #75
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Brooklyn -- you are bang on in your view of Tyutin: people talk of Tyutin like he is as medicore as Lundmark, but given the circumstances of him being SO young and playing such a tough, thankless position at D, I think we have nothing to do BUT give him the benefit of the doubt. Between Kaspritis being injured, Poti underacheiving, and the rest of the D inept in a two-way game, Tyutin, at 22, was the anchor of our defense!

Funny you throw in baseball, because I see how we criticize Tyutin as how fans critcize Melky Cabrera.

You think Soriano is a completle player now? I still have reservations with him, especially his work ethic and base running. At 30, you have to haven gotten over those hurdles, don't you agree?

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