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San Jose / Detroit Proposal

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Old
07-20-2006, 06:59 PM
  #26
norrisnick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops II View Post
Why is it that Red Wing fans don't get it. You don't get a star goaltender for under 5 million now and in a couple of years 5 mil will probably look cheap.
After missing out on at least one Cup due to mediocre goaltending - Joseph -
Holland should jump at the chance to get Nabokov, especially for as little as Williams and a worthless draft pick (with Nabokov it will be closer to a 3rd than a 2nd).
Why is it that Shark fans don't get it. Many don't consider Nabokov a star goaltender. Not even your own management. If he's such a modestly priced star why pray tell are you all trying to see him pawned off?

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07-20-2006, 07:09 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops II View Post
Why is it that Red Wing fans don't get it. You don't get a star goaltender for under 5 million now and in a couple of years 5 mil will probably look cheap.
After missing out on at least one Cup due to mediocre goaltending - Joseph -
Holland should jump at the chance to get Nabokov, especially for as little as Williams and a worthless draft pick (with Nabokov it will be closer to a 3rd than a 2nd).
No he shouldn't because our team probably isn't even a top 5 contender (even with Nabokov) and he needs to guide this team through a transition.

If there was no salary cap this deal would be done instantly because Holland could have loaded up with other free agents and went for another run at a title this year. Instead, in these times you have to assemble a young core to build around and then add free agents to fill holes.

Nabokov is a terrific goalie but his contract length handcuffs the wings because if they were to commit to him then they would have to delay Howard, a great goaltending prospect from developing at the optimal pace. Of course there is a chance they could trade Nabokov later when Howard has proven he can be the #1 but if Nabokov were to fall apart then there would be a HUGE cap hit for a back-up goalie and that makes things extremely difficult to manage.

Detroit looks like they are finally commiting to their young players and assembling a "new core" to be the face of the franchise for the next half decade and longer if they work out. Talking about guys like Zetterberg, Kronwall, Howard and Datsyuk (although I hope they trade him for an impact, first line winger due to Detroit's great depth at center). And most redwings fans seem to be far more happy going this route instead of taking a very desperate shot at it this year.

Compete for the playoffs this year and hopefully fill a few impact player holes via the FA market next year when we have money to spend is the way to go.

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07-20-2006, 07:16 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by sharksfanatic View Post


That "overpaid backup" would be the best goalie DET has had not named hasek in YEARS.

And a minor point... SJ does not "need" to trim fat, though it would be nice.
Hell I'd still take Cujo over Nabokov.

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07-20-2006, 07:23 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by shadoz19 View Post
Hell I'd still take Cujo over Nabokov.
Then DET is very lucky you're not their GM

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07-20-2006, 07:27 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharksfanatic View Post
Then DET is very lucky you're not their GM
For this year I would too actually.

Im most situations I would take Nabokov as he is definitely the better goalie but contracts determine a great deal of a players value in today's NHL and CUJO would fit their plans quite a bit better than Nabokov would.

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07-20-2006, 07:35 PM
  #31
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Ekman leaving San Jose for a pick. All the more reason to bolster the Sharks wing. I'm telling you, that is a lousy crop of wingers so far, and the Sharks do need help there. Yes, defense is a need, but they are not so bad as people think back there, despite Priessing's loss.

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07-20-2006, 07:39 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by dangler19 View Post
No he shouldn't because our team probably isn't even a top 5 contender (even with Nabokov) and he needs to guide this team through a transition.

If there was no salary cap this deal would be done instantly because Holland could have loaded up with other free agents and went for another run at a title this year. Instead, in these times you have to assemble a young core to build around and then add free agents to fill holes.

Nabokov is a terrific goalie but his contract length handcuffs the wings because if they were to commit to him then they would have to delay Howard, a great goaltending prospect from developing at the optimal pace. Of course there is a chance they could trade Nabokov later when Howard has proven he can be the #1 but if Nabokov were to fall apart then there would be a HUGE cap hit for a back-up goalie and that makes things extremely difficult to manage.

Detroit looks like they are finally commiting to their young players and assembling a "new core" to be the face of the franchise for the next half decade and longer if they work out. Talking about guys like Zetterberg, Kronwall, Howard and Datsyuk (although I hope they trade him for an impact, first line winger due to Detroit's great depth at center). And most redwings fans seem to be far more happy going this route instead of taking a very desperate shot at it this year.

Compete for the playoffs this year and hopefully fill a few impact player holes via the FA market next year when we have money to spend is the way to go.
I agree that the Red Wings are not a Cup contender even if they add Nabokov. If Holland is willing to rebuild for a season or two then there is no point in trading for Nabokov. IMO Howard is nothing special but they might as well give him a shot.
If the Wings want to go for it this year their best bet at the moment is to go after Nabokov or Toskala.
Re Datsyuk - after his playoff performances I doubt anyone would trade a 1st line winger for him.

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07-20-2006, 08:00 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops II View Post
I agree that the Red Wings are not a Cup contender even if they add Nabokov. If Holland is willing to rebuild for a season or two then there is no point in trading for Nabokov. IMO Howard is nothing special but they might as well give him a shot.
If the Wings want to go for it this year their best bet at the moment is to go after Nabokov or Toskala.
Re Datsyuk - after his playoff performances I doubt anyone would trade a 1st line winger for him.
Thank you for recognizing our situation. You will have your opinion of Howard and Wings will have thiers but all his achievements and all his outstanding play up until now suggest that he will be a good starting goalie in the N.H.L. It only makes sense to go with him.

I couldn't disagree more with your opinion of Datsyuk. This guy's scoring pace pro-rated to a 95 point season this year had he played all 82 games which would be pushing the top 10 overall (all things equal). He has the regular season stats to be a #1 center on any team in the league and his playoff performances are something I'm betting he will improve on. A lot of fingers have been pointed at him but he was hurt this year to start the playoffs and its not like his linemates (namely Shanahan) helped his cause anyway. He will do more than 90% of the players in this league to get you into the playoffs and that is most important factor to build your team with. Besides there have been players in the past who were playoff no-shows playing on good teams that eventually started to produce (ie. Radek Bonk).

I think Datsyuk could very well fetch a player of Gagne or Nagy's caliber straight-up.

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07-20-2006, 08:22 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
The Wings only need a stopgap goalie. Not a four year monstrosity.
Exactly. END OF THREAD.

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07-20-2006, 09:47 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by sharksfanatic View Post
Then DET is very lucky you're not their GM
Hey we know what we're getting come playoff time and obviously with Nabokov you don't.

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07-20-2006, 10:17 PM
  #36
detredWINgs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops II View Post
Why is it that Red Wing fans don't get it. You don't get a star goaltender for under 5 million now and in a couple of years 5 mil will probably look cheap.
After missing out on at least one Cup due to mediocre goaltending - Joseph -
Holland should jump at the chance to get Nabokov, especially for as little as Williams and a worthless draft pick (with Nabokov it will be closer to a 3rd than a 2nd).
Apparently you dont watch Red Wings hockey. Joseph was probably the best player for Detroit in the 2004 playoffs. A 1.39 GAA and a .939 SV% will back me up on this one..

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07-20-2006, 10:20 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by sharksfanatic View Post
Then DET is very lucky you're not their GM
Actually, Ken Holland would probably take Cujo over Nabby too. He was obviously willing to take Belfour over Nabby, so what does that tell you? The Wings dont want Nabokov. If he was making 2.5-3M then yes, but over 4 for how many years? No thanks.

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07-20-2006, 10:21 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
Apparently you dont watch Red Wings hockey. Joseph was probably the best player for Detroit in the 2004 playoffs. A 1.39 GAA and a .939 SV% will back me up on this one..
He was however the weakest link (aside from forward confidence) in '03. Robitaille hit the crossbar in OT of game 1, Giggy became a goalie-GOD, and Cujo let in a stinker every game. That spelled the end of the playoffs.

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07-20-2006, 10:24 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by PattyLafontaine View Post
Huh,

stopgap who exactly would be ready to step in for the Deadthings after on year of a goalie. None of the prospects are ready for at minimum two years.
Are you a Wings fan? Apparently not, because if you were, you would have heard the continuous statements by Holland, Nill, and many others from Wings management that Howard will come in in the next two years AT MOST. Hes pretty much slated for a 2007-2008 starter debut. Hell, if Howard wasnt ready for a "minimum of two years" why would Jim Nill have come today and said that he would be perfectly fine with Osgood and one of his prospects if the season started today.

Seriously, do people here just seem to think that they know more than Wings management does, because everybody here talking from a Wings point of view is simply stating information that the WIngs GM has already said.

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07-20-2006, 10:27 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
He was however the weakest link (aside from forward confidence) in '03. Robitaille hit the crossbar in OT of game 1, Giggy became a goalie-GOD, and Cujo let in a stinker every game. That spelled the end of the playoffs.
Exactly. I posted on the Red Wings board before those playoffs that Joseph was the worst goalie of the playoff teams in the Western Conference. I also said that the best goalies in the playoffs were Nabokov, Toskala, Kiprusoff and Khabibulin (if he kept his legs closed) and all were in the final 4.

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07-20-2006, 10:27 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
Why is it that Shark fans don't get it. Many don't consider Nabokov a star goaltender. Not even your own management. If he's such a modestly priced star why pray tell are you all trying to see him pawned off?
Honestly, go back and re-read everything I've posted on the Wings board. Don't talk about what Sharks management wants because you have no idea from that comment alone. And if many don't consider Nabokov a star goaltender then why was he consistently on nearly every top 10 list last offseason?

I will never say he is modestly priced but I will say his contract is market value for a goalie of his caliber because it is. I've proven this much with facts. You have offered nothing but passive agressive comments because the facts don't support what you would like to believe.

We get it, you don't want Nabokov. Great. I don't want to trade him (or Toskala) to the Wings. I'll take solace in the fact that the Sharks backup is better than what the Wings will be able to throw out as a starter for the next 4 years.

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07-20-2006, 10:30 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
He was however the weakest link (aside from forward confidence) in '03. Robitaille hit the crossbar in OT of game 1, Giggy became a goalie-GOD, and Cujo let in a stinker every game. That spelled the end of the playoffs.
So he was the weakest link, except he wasnt?? Dont be another blinded Detroit fan putting all the blame on the goaltending. We had problems scoring goals two years in a row. Joseph was mediocre in 03, yeah, but our offense was abysmal. He still never lost a game by more than a goal, and posted decent stats. Jospeh redeemed himself in 04 being the strongest link, bar none, and the forwards still couldnt score. The only thing Joseph couldve done better in 04 was score the damn goals himself. Not to mention, both times he was facing off against the two best playoff performances by goaltenders in a while. Gigueres was one of the best all time.

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07-20-2006, 10:31 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
Are you a Wings fan? Apparently not, because if you were, you would have heard the continuous statements by Holland, Nill, and many others from Wings management that Howard will come in in the next two years AT MOST. Hes pretty much slated for a 2007-2008 starter debut. Hell, if Howard wasnt ready for a "minimum of two years" why would Jim Nill have come today and said that he would be perfectly fine with Osgood and one of his prospects if the season started today.

Seriously, do people here just seem to think that they know more than Wings management does, because everybody here talking from a Wings point of view is simply stating information that the WIngs GM has already said.
And since the Wings have never had a really good goalie what does that say about management's ability to evaluate goaltenders?

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07-20-2006, 10:35 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Patty Ice View Post
I will never say he is modestly priced but I will say his contract is market value for a goalie of his caliber because it is. I've proven this much with facts. You have offered nothing but passive agressive comments because the facts don't support what you would like to believe.
How is Nabakov's price market value for goaltending right now?? The only guys that make more than him are Luongo, Brodeur and Khabibulin. Nabby couldnt touch Luongo and Brodeur with a ten foot pole and Khabis was legit at the time because he had just backstopped his team to the cup. SJ threw an inflated contract at Nabby before he had even finished the season and it was all downhill from there.

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07-20-2006, 10:43 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Cyclops II View Post
And since the Wings have never had a really good goalie what does that say about management's ability to evaluate goaltenders?
That Sharks fans opinions of goaltenders is either really off or that they think the NHL began in 2003?? Last time I checked, in the past 9 seasons, Detroit has had 3 different cup - winning goaltenders.

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07-20-2006, 10:52 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
How is Nabakov's price market value for goaltending right now?? The only guys that make more than him are Luongo, Brodeur and Khabibulin. Nabby couldnt touch Luongo and Brodeur with a ten foot pole and Khabis was legit at the time because he had just backstopped his team to the cup. SJ threw an inflated contract at Nabby before he had even finished the season and it was all downhill from there.
Christ sakes I feel like a broken record but on top of the three you mentioned:

9/3/2005 Jose Theodore signs a 3 year, $16 million contract
1/5/2006 Marty Turco signs a 4 year, $22.8 million contract
2/8/2006 Evgeni Nabokov signs a 4 year, $21.5 million contract
2/11/2006 Olaf Kolzig signs a 2 year, $10.9 million dollar contract

You know what the common theme is? All are top rated goaltenders all re-signed with their teams before hitting unrestricted free agent with four of those deals coming at around the same time period (Turco, Brodeur, Nabokov, and Kolzig) because the market was set.

Research people! Research! The internet makes it that much easier to do.

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07-20-2006, 11:16 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Patty Ice View Post
Christ sakes I feel like a broken record but on top of the three you mentioned:

9/3/2005 Jose Theodore signs a 3 year, $16 million contract
1/5/2006 Marty Turco signs a 4 year, $22.8 million contract
2/8/2006 Evgeni Nabokov signs a 4 year, $21.5 million contract
2/11/2006 Olaf Kolzig signs a 2 year, $10.9 million dollar contract

You know what the common theme is? All are top rated goaltenders all re-signed with their teams before hitting unrestricted free agent with four of those deals coming at around the same time period (Turco, Brodeur, Nabokov, and Kolzig) because the market was set.

Research people! Research! The internet makes it that much easier to do.
And with the obvious exception of Brodeur, which of all the mentioned goalies is worth that money? It's also a common theme they were overpaid by GM's afraid of losing them to free agency. Do you think any of them are looking back positively on those signings (excluding Kolzig because of the cap situation)? I highly doubt Colorado, Chicago, and Dallas fans are happy with those contracts on their team. Think about it, if Wilson was willing to just lose Nabokov to FA the Sharks could have signed Kubina or McKee.

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07-20-2006, 11:20 PM
  #48
detredWINgs
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Originally Posted by Patty Ice View Post
Christ sakes I feel like a broken record but on top of the three you mentioned:

9/3/2005 Jose Theodore signs a 3 year, $16 million contract
1/5/2006 Marty Turco signs a 4 year, $22.8 million contract
2/8/2006 Evgeni Nabokov signs a 4 year, $21.5 million contract
2/11/2006 Olaf Kolzig signs a 2 year, $10.9 million dollar contract

You know what the common theme is? All are top rated goaltenders all re-signed with their teams before hitting unrestricted free agent with four of those deals coming at around the same time period (Turco, Brodeur, Nabokov, and Kolzig) because the market was set.

Research people! Research! The internet makes it that much easier to do.

Ahh I see youre right. But all this proves is that GMs are too hasty in signing their tenders. Theodores was justified, he had just won the Hart, Turco was the best tender in the NHL at the time and Kolzig...well I can imagine that he had to be begged to stay in Washington playing essentially for an AHL team. Either way hes an underrated goalie, but all these guys are vastly overpaid.

Either way, like I said above, if Nabby costed less and was on a 2 year contract. Hell, if Nabokov costed 4M for only a year, Detroit would probably do it, but as of now, hes overpaid and overrated on this board.

Ill say this again: Detroit takes the risk of missing the playoffs before they trade valuable players for Giguere or Nabokov.

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07-20-2006, 11:20 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire11 View Post
And with the obvious exception of Brodeur, which of all the mentioned goalies is worth that money?
I never said they were worth that money as I posted a mere 5 posts ago:
Quote:
I will never say he is modestly priced but I will say his contract is market value for a goalie of his caliber because it is.
Overpriced they may be but it doesn't change that is the market value for a top rated goaltender as an UFA (or forgoing it).

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07-20-2006, 11:27 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
Theodores was justified, he had just won the Hart
Actually, Theo signed a similar deal after he won the Hart but he signed a new deal just prior to the last season. Two separate contracts but similar numbers.

Eventually, if the Wings deem that they need a top rated goaltender, they are going to have to shell out that cash. I'm not saying it should be Nabokov but after a year or two, his contract could prove to be a bargain. Two years from now, these goaltenders could be looking for over $6 million a year (case in point Luongo).

Hope that Howard proves to be the jam if they don't want fork over that cash. Great prospect but there will be growing pains. Also consider that the new NHL isn't built for 7 years down the line. By the time your prospects and Howard are ready to star in the league, you could be losing a Zetterberg or a Datsyuk.

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