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The Best PLayer In The History of The NHL

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Old
07-23-2006, 12:34 AM
  #51
raleh
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A tournament of "a team of (blanks)" would end like this I think;

1. Bobby Orr
2. Red Kelly
3. Steve Yzerman
4. Mario Lemieux
5. King Clancy/Gordie Howe

NOTE: If the "blank" were to play goalie also, a team of Ron Hextalls or Jaques Plantes would probably win the tournament.

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Old
07-23-2006, 12:38 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tape-2-tape View Post
I believe Wayne played in a much more watered down league than Orr did IMO. Don't get me wrong, I love Gretzky but Orr could have played at any time/era and would have been just as dominate.
Number of teams, expansion etc. has no bearing on how great a player is.

Gretzky was SIGNIFICANTLY better than any other player on the planet for a long time. It makes no difference how many teams were in the league or how many were added - his raw point totals should not be used for comparison. How far above the rest of the players on the planet is the issue.

Gretzky won scoring titles by as much as 69%. That is dominance like no other player has ever approached.

ERA is not a factor when you compare players correctly.

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Old
07-23-2006, 12:42 AM
  #53
tape-2-tape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Gretzky won scoring titles by as much as 69%. That is dominance like no other player has ever approached.

ERA is not a factor when you compare players correctly.
So does this mean that your team of Waynes would kick Orr's teams a$$? That might be a big stretch IMO.

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Old
07-23-2006, 12:45 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Gretzky was SIGNIFICANTLY better than any other player on the planet for a long time.
and Orr wasn't during his time? I think even Wayne would agree with me here.

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Old
07-23-2006, 12:50 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tape-2-tape View Post
and Orr wasn't during his time? I think even Wayne would agree with me here.

I didn't say that at all.

Gretzky was just a little bit more dominant and he did it for a longer time. That is why he ranks higher on my list.

Had Orr played a full career, he likely would have challenged Howe and Gretzky for the 1 and 2 slots.

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Old
07-23-2006, 12:51 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tape-2-tape View Post
So does this mean that your team of Waynes would kick Orr's teams a$$? That might be a big stretch IMO.

That really makes no sense. I am not sure who the better goalie is.

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Old
07-23-2006, 01:26 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
That really makes no sense. I am not sure who the better goalie is.
ok....they both would have the same goalie...Roy, Plante, Hasek...whoever.

Of course it's all just opinion here, which makes this board so great. IMO Orr is 'The Best Player In The History Of The NHL' as stated in the title of this thread.

Seems pretty clear to me that Orr was just that > 'The Best Player In The History Of The NHL'.

In your opinion, Wayne is...which is fine with me but I still say that in any era/time that Orr would still be the player that wins that title.

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Old
07-23-2006, 02:10 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Number of teams, expansion etc. has no bearing on how great a player is.

Gretzky was SIGNIFICANTLY better than any other player on the planet for a long time. It makes no difference how many teams were in the league or how many were added - his raw point totals should not be used for comparison. How far above the rest of the players on the planet is the issue.

Gretzky won scoring titles by as much as 69%. That is dominance like no other player has ever approached.

ERA is not a factor when you compare players correctly.
I totally agree, Im amazed there is any debate but Orr seems to be winning the vote. Didnt the great one have assist totals that would have won the scoring title by a large margin?

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Old
07-23-2006, 02:22 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBaron View Post
I totally agree, Im amazed there is any debate but Orr seems to be winning the vote. Didnt the great one have assist totals that would have won the scoring title by a large margin?
I don't believe that anyone is questioning Waynes greatness as a player in the history of the game. He dominated in his time but, the question of him being 'The Best Player In The History Of The NHL' is debatable.

I'll stick with Orr for that title.

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Old
07-23-2006, 02:38 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tape-2-tape View Post
Guess what...I'll take my team of Orr's against your team of Gretzky's both in thier prime and hands down...you'd lose.

Both two of the greatest players ever but Orr would win...in any decade and even in todays game.

Thanks for proving my point of how people like to turn opinion and speculation into fact. Yeah, dude, lets take 5 Gretzky's and play them against 5 Orr's, that will decide this once and for all.

I've seen Orr do stuff no one else has ever done. I've seen Gretz do the same. I'll stick with my choice, and still get a good night sleep.

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Old
07-23-2006, 02:44 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oljase View Post
Thanks for proving my point of how people like to turn opinion and speculation into fact. Yeah, dude, lets take 5 Gretzky's and play them against 5 Orr's, that will decide this once and for all.

I've seen Orr do stuff no one else has ever done. I've seen Gretz do the same. I'll stick with my choice, and still get a good night sleep.
Thanks for your approval and I'll stick with my choice as well.....better yet, start a poll and we'll let the majority rule.

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Old
07-23-2006, 02:52 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murray View Post
Based on what evidence. I have seen them all play except Shore.
I'm not saying it's conclussive. But, most people say goalies are the most important players, and so, naturally, the best goalies should get serious concideration. And most accept that Shawchuk, Roy, Hall, Hasek and Plante are the best goalies. I also have not seen Shore, but from what I've read of him, he is amazing and based on awards, one of only 2 d-men to be concidered best player of their era. And concidering how underrated d-men usually are, that's saying something. And I would say, from what I've seen, which, granted, is only highlights, Richard is in the same class as Gretzky and Lemieux when it comes to goal scoring.

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Old
07-23-2006, 03:00 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
I'm not saying it's conclussive. But, most people say goalies are the most important players, and so, naturally, the best goalies should get serious concideration. And most accept that Shawchuk, Roy, Hall, Hasek and Plante are the best goalies.
No question about that as many times the teams last line of defense often gets overlooked by many. I agree with your choices....all GREAT goaltenders and I'll have to vote for Sawchuk!

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Old
07-23-2006, 10:36 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tape-2-tape View Post
and Orr wasn't during his time? I think even Wayne would agree with me here.
Judging from, Art Ross, Hart, and Pearson awards, Bobby Orr was not as dominating during his carreer as Wayne Gretzky was during his. And before you bring up Orr's 8 Norris trophies... Don't you think if there was an award for the "best forward" Gretzky wouldn't have won it atleast everytime he won the Hart (9)?

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Old
07-23-2006, 11:42 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tape-2-tape View Post
I believe Wayne played in a much more watered down league than Orr did IMO. Don't get me wrong, I love Gretzky but Orr could have played at any time/era and would have been just as dominate.
Orr played in a far more watered down era than Gretzky did. His last couple of seasons there were 28-32 teams playing pro hockey competeing for players with each other and their were no Russians, Czechs, Slovaks in the NHL and their were far fewer Finns and Swedes. And there were far less Americans that were playing hockey then. The NHL and WHA were largely stacked with predominantly Canadian players (when Canada's population was 60% of now).

Of course Orr played one year in the orignal 6, 3 years in a 12 team league and a season or 2 after that before the WHA. The talent was much less watered down at the start of his career, but by the end of it hockey was more watered down than it ever was in History.

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Old
07-24-2006, 05:32 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cup2006sensrule View Post
Orr played in a far more watered down era than Gretzky did. His last couple of seasons there were 28-32 teams playing pro hockey competeing for players with each other and their were no Russians, Czechs, Slovaks in the NHL and their were far fewer Finns and Swedes. And there were far less Americans that were playing hockey then. The NHL and WHA were largely stacked with predominantly Canadian players (when Canada's population was 60% of now).

Of course Orr played one year in the orignal 6, 3 years in a 12 team league and a season or 2 after that before the WHA. The talent was much less watered down at the start of his career, but by the end of it hockey was more watered down than it ever was in History.



Excellent point.....That period from 1967 to 1980 (post-expansion and pre-soviet-bloc exodus) was the most watered down in the history of the NHL.

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Old
07-24-2006, 06:09 PM
  #67
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Still think it's Mario Lemieux

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Old
07-24-2006, 06:27 PM
  #68
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This board is usually the best on HF, because you have people who "saw" players commenting on them.

However, when you get visitors here who are suggesting that Bobby Orr was "not as dominating", based on Trophies won, you see it for what it's worth - Children who's parent weren't even dating when #4 was gracing NHL ice surfaces.

One should not pass judgement on those before his time. Makes you look like a fool.

Harsh, but true.

To suggest that #99, #66 or whomever is the greatest ever is fine. To suggest that #4 was not every bit as dominating as anyone WHO EVER laced them up, if not more, is asinine. And overly simplistic beyond belief.

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Old
07-24-2006, 06:30 PM
  #69
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Here's a way to look at it. Let's put Orr on the 80s Oilers and subtract 99. And let's put Gretzky on the Big Bad Bruins but Orr isn't on the team. We can even send Espo away for Park if you like.

I like Orr's chances with that Oiler team.

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Old
07-24-2006, 07:11 PM
  #70
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Mario Lemieux

Wayne Gretzky

I'll mention Bobby Orr (but I was still too young!)



Others: Yzerman, Messier

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Old
07-24-2006, 07:56 PM
  #71
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1. Lemieux
2. Orr
3. Gretzky

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Old
07-24-2006, 08:57 PM
  #72
tape-2-tape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlio lemieux View Post
Judging from, Art Ross, Hart, and Pearson awards, Bobby Orr was not as dominating during his carreer as Wayne Gretzky was during his. And before you bring up Orr's 8 Norris trophies... Don't you think if there was an award for the "best forward" Gretzky wouldn't have won it atleast everytime he won the Hart (9)?
May I ask, what that really has to do with my opinion that Orr is the greatest player in the history of the NHL? Maybe you weren't fortunate enough to have seen him play? I'm not bashing Wayne at all, I just think Orr was simply the GREATEST EVER.

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Old
07-24-2006, 09:00 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
This board is usually the best on HF, because you have people who "saw" players commenting on them.

However, when you get visitors here who are suggesting that Bobby Orr was "not as dominating", based on Trophies won, you see it for what it's worth - Children who's parent weren't even dating when #4 was gracing NHL ice surfaces.

One should not pass judgement on those before his time. Makes you look like a fool.

Harsh, but true.

To suggest that #99, #66 or whomever is the greatest ever is fine. To suggest that #4 was not every bit as dominating as anyone WHO EVER laced them up, if not more, is asinine. And overly simplistic beyond belief.
Look Trotterhead, individual awards and trophies are perhaps the best indicator of how a player dominated their era. Especially an award voted on by their peers. Bottom line is Gretzky was more dominating for longer, over his peers in the 80's than Orr was over his own peers in the 70's.

I'm sorry if that hurt your feelings little boy.
Actually no I'm not. you are a pompous arrogant ***. For the second time in two responses to your idiocy, Get Bent.

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Old
07-24-2006, 09:09 PM
  #74
tape-2-tape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlio lemieux View Post
individual awards and trophies are perhaps the best indicator of how a player dominated their era. Especially an award voted on by their peers.
The Pearson may be the greatest example of this not always being true. Ratalle is one example who was a great player who had a career season but probably shouldn't have won it.

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Old
07-24-2006, 09:10 PM
  #75
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Actually, I seldom enter into discussions about the best player ever. I read the posts but I think that a lot of people unfortunately have never seen most of the great ones play, so how can they choose? I just don't think that you can compare a right winger from the tight checking 50's to a free wheeling defenceman of the 70's to a high scoring centreman from a defence challenged 80's era.

I could give opinions on the best defenceman or goalie or forward within the same era. That might be more meaningful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Good points, murray. When looking at the best career, I'm factoring in Wayne's awards and his records. They both won four Stanley Cups.

A case could definitely be made for Howe with his incredible longevity (an amazing 33-year career), his accolades (a first or second-team all-star in 21 of 22 seasons from 1949 to 1970) and the production (top five in scoring for 20 straight seasons).

But I think Howe was the better player. An absolute all-round force. Size, skill, physical play. And tremendous strength. (I know Classic Hockey will have something to say about this).

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