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The Best PLayer In The History of The NHL

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Old
07-24-2006, 09:11 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by charlio lemieux View Post
Look Trotterhead, individual awards and trophies are perhaps the best indicator of how a player dominated their era. Especially an award voted on by their peers. Bottom line is Gretzky was more dominating for longer, over his peers in the 80's than Orr was over his own peers in the 70's.

I'm sorry if that hurt your feelings little boy.
Actually no I'm not. you are a pompous arrogant ***. For the second time in two responses to your idiocy, Get Bent.
Classy response to one of the best posters on these boards.

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07-24-2006, 09:13 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by cup2006sensrule View Post
Classy response to one of the best posters on these boards.
Classy? Let's see, first post I ever read of his, he called me a punk and someone else an insufferable old schooler. He has no class at all.

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07-24-2006, 09:26 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by charlio lemieux View Post
Judging from, Art Ross, Hart, and Pearson awards, Bobby Orr was not as dominating during his carreer as Wayne Gretzky was during his. And before you bring up Orr's 8 Norris trophies... Don't you think if there was an award for the "best forward" Gretzky wouldn't have won it atleast everytime he won the Hart (9)?


No. I would say Dionne wins in '80 and Mario definately wins in '89 (he should have had the hart too).

Maybe (and I don't agree with this) but maybe you can say that Gretzky was more dominant over his career than Orr was. However, if you want to play the trophy game, Orr's Hart, Norris, Art Ross, Conn Smythe, Stanley cup from 1970 trumps Gretzky's best year in '85 of Hart, Art Ross, Conn Smythe, Stanley cup. Orr did everything Gretzky did, but he was also the best defensive player in the league.

If you still insist on comparing numbers in order to strengthen your argument, check out their career plus/minus numbers. If you want you can take the +/- from each of their best five years so Orr's shortened career doesn't effect his dominance.

To me, it comes down to this fact; Orr was to defence was Gretzky was to offence, but Orr was far more to offence than Gretzky was to defence. This makes Orr the better player.

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07-24-2006, 10:02 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by raleh View Post
[/B]

No. I would say Dionne wins in '80 and Mario definately wins in '89 (he should have had the hart too).

Maybe (and I don't agree with this) but maybe you can say that Gretzky was more dominant over his career than Orr was. However, if you want to play the trophy game, Orr's Hart, Norris, Art Ross, Conn Smythe, Stanley cup from 1970 trumps Gretzky's best year in '85 of Hart, Art Ross, Conn Smythe, Stanley cup. Orr did everything Gretzky did, but he was also the best defensive player in the league.

If you still insist on comparing numbers in order to strengthen your argument, check out their career plus/minus numbers. If you want you can take the +/- from each of their best five years so Orr's shortened career doesn't effect his dominance.

To me, it comes down to this fact; Orr was to defence was Gretzky was to offence, but Orr was far more to offence than Gretzky was to defence. This makes Orr the better player.
So going by your count Gretzky would only have 7 "best forward" awards if there had been such an award? Whatever.

I was only using the trophies to establish who was more dominating over their peers, and the answer is Gretzky. There were years in his prime when Orr wasn't the best player on his team. Didn't win the Hart, Pearson, or Art Ross. The only player, Lemieux, who even came close to the domination of Gretzky, came after he had dominated for 8 years, and happens to be one of the top 3-4 players ever to play the game. It is a matter of by how much he out-excelled his peers. Bobby Orr may have been the best Player of the 70's but it wasn't by such an amount that he dominated the Art Ross, Pearson, and Hart Trophies for years in a row. Orr did dominate the D-men of the league in such a manner, with his 8 Norris trophies, but others were close enough to him to poach scoring titles and MVP awards from him.

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07-24-2006, 10:12 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlio lemieux View Post
Bobby Orr may have been the best Player of the 70's but it wasn't by such an amount that he dominated the Art Ross, Pearson, and Hart Trophies for years in a row. Orr did dominate the D-men of the league in such a manner, with his 8 Norris trophies, but others were close enough to him to poach scoring titles and MVP awards from him.
Orr may not have dominated with individual awards during his career but he was by far the greatest player during those years. It's not rocket science here.

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07-24-2006, 10:20 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by raleh View Post
To me, it comes down to this fact; Orr was to defence was Gretzky was to offence, but Orr was far more to offence than Gretzky was to defence. This makes Orr the better player.
I'll agree with you there.....I'll never take anything away from the Great One but Orr could basically do it all.

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07-24-2006, 10:22 PM
  #82
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Number 4, Bobby Orr......

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07-24-2006, 10:33 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by charlio lemieux View Post
So going by your count Gretzky would only have 7 "best forward" awards if there had been such an award? Whatever.

I was only using the trophies to establish who was more dominating over their peers, and the answer is Gretzky. There were years in his prime when Orr wasn't the best player on his team. Didn't win the Hart, Pearson, or Art Ross. The only player, Lemieux, who even came close to the domination of Gretzky, came after he had dominated for 8 years, and happens to be one of the top 3-4 players ever to play the game. It is a matter of by how much he out-excelled his peers. Bobby Orr may have been the best Player of the 70's but it wasn't by such an amount that he dominated the Art Ross, Pearson, and Hart Trophies for years in a row. Orr did dominate the D-men of the league in such a manner, with his 8 Norris trophies, but others were close enough to him to poach scoring titles and MVP awards from him.
The mere fact that Orr actually won 2 scoring titles as a defenceman is mind boggling. Every award Phil Esposito won is related to Orr to a large degree and Orr's scoring titles are related to Esposito being with Orr. Both would have been outstanding on their own but Orr helped Esposito to monstrous seasons and the extra 10-15 or more points Orr got from playing with the best forward in the NHL helped him win his 2 scoring titles.

Awards don't mean that much. Orr completely dominated the NHL. Jordan lost MVP trophies to Barkley and Malone when Jordan was the most dominant player. Ted Williams lost the 1941 MVP to Joe Dimaggio despite hitting .406. He won the triple crown in 1942 and lost to Joe Gordon for MVP. He won the triple crown in 1947 and lost the MVP vote to Dimaggio. Williams was massively dominant and didn't win the MVP in his best seasons. It takes nothing away from his career and he is considered a top 5 All-time player in baseball by almost everyone.

Bobby Clarke was the Joe Dimaggio to Orr being Williams. Clarke won the Hart in years that Orr was the BEST player. But the MVP is the most vlauable player and Clarke sure can't be dismissed as not being massively valuable to a very good Flyers team.

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07-24-2006, 10:38 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by cup2006sensrule View Post
The mere fact that Orr actually won 2 scoring titles as a defenceman is mind boggling. Every award Phil Esposito won is related to Orr to a large degree and Orr's scoring titles are related to Esposito being with Orr. Both would have been outstanding on their own but Orr helped Esposito to monstrous seasons and the extra 10-15 or more points Orr got from playing with the best forward in the NHL helped him win his 2 scoring titles.

Awards don't mean that much. Orr completely dominated the NHL. Jordan lost MVP trophies to Barkley and Malone when Jordan was the most dominant player. Ted Williams lost the 1941 MVP to Joe Dimaggio despite hitting .406. He won the triple crown in 1942 and lost to Joe Gordon for MVP. He won the triple crown in 1947 and lost the MVP vote to Dimaggio. Williams was massively dominant and didn't win the MVP in his best seasons. It takes nothing away from his career and he is considered a top 5 All-time player in baseball by almost everyone.

Bobby Clarke was the Joe Dimaggio to Orr being Williams. Clarke won the Hart in years that Orr was the BEST player. But the MVP is the most vlauable player and Clarke sure can't be dismissed as not being massively valuable to a very good Flyers team.

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07-24-2006, 10:43 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by raleh View Post
[/B]

Maybe (and I don't agree with this) but maybe you can say that Gretzky was more dominant over his career than Orr was. However, if you want to play the trophy game, Orr's Hart, Norris, Art Ross, Conn Smythe, Stanley cup from 1970 trumps Gretzky's best year in '85 of Hart, Art Ross, Conn Smythe, Stanley cup. Orr did everything Gretzky did, but he was also the best defensive player in the league.
Well, if there was a best forward award, Wayne would have won it in 85 so Orr's year doesn't trump anything.

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07-24-2006, 10:50 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by KariyaIsGod View Post
Well, if there was a best forward award, Wayne would have won it in 85 so Orr's year doesn't trump anything.
Maybe they should've instituted a best forward award just so Orr wouldn't have trumped Wayne then? Amazing how this whole award issue makes people a bit shallow towards the what Orr actually did accomplish during his career.

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07-24-2006, 10:51 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by cup2006sensrule View Post
The mere fact that Orr actually won 2 scoring titles as a defenceman is mind boggling. Every award Phil Esposito won is related to Orr to a large degree and Orr's scoring titles are related to Esposito being with Orr. Both would have been outstanding on their own but Orr helped Esposito to monstrous seasons and the extra 10-15 or more points Orr got from playing with the best forward in the NHL helped him win his 2 scoring titles.

Awards don't mean that much. Orr completely dominated the NHL. Jordan lost MVP trophies to Barkley and Malone when Jordan was the most dominant player. Ted Williams lost the 1941 MVP to Joe Dimaggio despite hitting .406. He won the triple crown in 1942 and lost to Joe Gordon for MVP. He won the triple crown in 1947 and lost the MVP vote to Dimaggio. Williams was massively dominant and didn't win the MVP in his best seasons. It takes nothing away from his career and he is considered a top 5 All-time player in baseball by almost everyone.

Bobby Clarke was the Joe Dimaggio to Orr being Williams. Clarke won the Hart in years that Orr was the BEST player. But the MVP is the most vlauable player and Clarke sure can't be dismissed as not being massively valuable to a very good Flyers team.
The mere fact that Orr actually only won 2 scoring titles, even as a defenceman, when he is considered by some to be the best player ever is mind boggling.

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07-24-2006, 10:53 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by tape-2-tape View Post
Maybe they should've instituted a best forward award just so Orr wouldn't have trumped Wayne then? Amazing how this whole award issue makes people a bit shallow towards the what Orr actually did accomplish during his career.
Speaking of shallow... How about just ignoring Gretzky's accomplishments?
Because that is what everyone who thinks there ever was a better player in the game is doing.

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07-24-2006, 10:57 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by charlio lemieux View Post
Speaking of shallow... How about just ignoring Gretzky's accomplishments?
Because that is what everyone who thinks there ever was a better player in the game is doing.
Hmmm....please point out where I ever ignored Waynes accomplishments? It's more of some who seem to break down Orr's accomplishments.

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07-24-2006, 11:01 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by charlio lemieux View Post
The mere fact that Orr actually only won 2 scoring titles, even as a defenceman, when he is considered by some to be the best player ever is mind boggling.
Wow....you really need to learn about the history of this game....it is a history link...correct? Maybe you'd be better off just saying that Orr sucked or wasn't in Waynes class then?

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07-24-2006, 11:04 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by tape-2-tape View Post
Wow....you really need to learn about the history of this game....it is a history link...correct? Maybe you'd be better off just saying that Orr sucked or wasn't in Waynes class then?
Orr wasn't in Waynes Class. Happy? No one was in Wayne's class. Mario and Orr may be right there but not quite.

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07-24-2006, 11:05 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by tape-2-tape View Post
Hmmm....please point out where I ever ignored Waynes accomplishments? It's more of some who seem to break down Orr's accomplishments.
Anybody who says Gretzky wasn't the best player ever has to be ignoring what he did during his carreer.

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07-24-2006, 11:12 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by charlio lemieux View Post
Anybody who says Gretzky wasn't the best player ever has to be ignoring what he did during his carreer.
Your opinion's fine and I'll respect yours if you respect mine. Orr was in his own class and the Greatest Ever In The History Of The NHL IMO. Don't disrespect Orrs accomplishments because of individual awards. Wayne was a GREAT Player and probably the greatest scoring machine ever, but not the Greatest Ever In The History Of The NHL IMO......Orr's my pick.

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07-24-2006, 11:22 PM
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So Orr is so special he trumps the Facts that Gretzky has almost 1000 more points than the 2nd all-time scorer. More Assists than any other player has points. Almost 100 goals more than the 2nd all-time goal scorer. Holds or has held 60 or so NHL records. Including most Art Ross, Hart, and Pearson awards. Most goals in a season, most assists in a season, and most points in a season. He holds the longest point scoring streak in history and was the fastest ever to 50 goals. But some how he is not the best player to play the game.??????

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07-24-2006, 11:25 PM
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Gretzky definitely had the greatest career in NHL history. If Orr was healthy for 20 seasons perhaps he would have been close but, what ifs are worthless. Orr's career is what it was. It was great but, perhaps because of the length of it, it was only the 3rd greatest career in NHL history.

IMO, to get the credit you have to play the hockey. If we just project how great a player would have been - why doesn't Normand Leveille make anybody's top 10?

Orr had a great career but, Howe and Gretzky had greater careers.

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07-24-2006, 11:33 PM
  #96
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So Orr is so special he trumps the Facts that Gretzky has almost 1000 more points than the 2nd all-time scorer. More Assists than any other player has points. Almost 100 goals more than the 2nd all-time goal scorer. Holds or has held 60 or so NHL records. Including most Art Ross, Hart, and Pearson awards. Most goals in a season, most assists in a season, and most points in a season. He holds the longest point scoring streak in history and was the fastest ever to 50 goals. But some how he is not the best player to play the game.??????
Is this based on opinions....that's what this board is for...correct?? Do I have to say what mine is again??

Gretzky was one of the greatest to ever play in the NHL...peroid. Was he the greatest of all time?? IMO Orr was the greatest single player in the history of the game.

Orr could do everything on both ends of the ice. He could play any style a team wanted to play against him. He hit, passed, skated, scored, could lead, and fight as well as anyone combined could do in the history of the game.

Nothing against Wayne, what he did speaks for it's self but, IMO Orr was The Greatest.....peroid.


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07-25-2006, 12:28 AM
  #97
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The mere fact that Orr actually only won 2 scoring titles, even as a defenceman, when he is considered by some to be the best player ever is mind boggling.
The fact you can write that Orr only won 2 scoring championships as a D-Man and think it is a reason he shouldn't be considered the best player ever is mind boggling to me.

Consider Orr's point totals vs the best recorded ever to that point in History


120 Orr 69/70 led NHL (the second most points ever scored ever to that point)
139 Orr 70/71 2nd in NHL (the second most points ever again)
117 Orr 71/72 2nd in NHL (6th best ever with Orr holding 2 of the better seasons)

At the end of Bobby Orr's full seasons in 74/75 there had been 26 100 point seasons.

They were in order of points:

Espo 152 70/71
Espo 145 73/74
Orr 139 70/71
Orr 135 74/75
Espo 133 71/72
Espo 130 72/73
Espo 127 74/75
Espo 126 68/69
Orr 122 73/74
Dionne 121 74/75
Orr 120 69/70
LaFleur 119 74/75
Orr 117 71/72
P. Mahovlich 117 74/75
Bucyk 116 70/71
Clarke 116 74/75
Ratelle 109 71/72
Bobby Hull 107 68/69
Hadfield 106 71/72
Hodge 105 73/74
Hodge 105 70/71
Clarke 104 72/73
Howe 103 68/69
Orr 101 72/73
Robert 100 74/75
Macleish 100 72/73

So at the end of his career of full time seasons there were 26 total 100 point scorers. Orr had done it 6 times and had 6 of the top 24 spots or 1/4 of the seasons himself.

Orr or one of his own teammates had 15 of the top 24 seasons. That is insane dominance and shows Orr's value to the Bruins.

Orr had the 3rd and 4th best point seasons ever and all of the top 9 seasons ever to that point were sone by either Orr or Esposito.

That is pure dominance as much or close to Gretzky's dominance in the 1980's if you count Orr and Esposito.

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07-25-2006, 12:34 AM
  #98
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Since the question asks for the best player in the history of the NHL and not for the player who had the best NHL career, I'm going to have to go with Bobby Orr.

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07-25-2006, 12:52 AM
  #99
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Gretzky, look at all those cups and broken records.

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07-25-2006, 04:40 AM
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I never saw Orr play, so it's hard to say... and at the same time, since I was born in 86, I missed Gretzky at his peak and have really barely seen him play at all. But... it's ludicrous the way he dominated. I mean, what the hell? Really? 1984, he wins the ross by 89 points. 1985 he wins the Ross by 83 points. What the hell? What's wrong with all the other players in the NHL? Are they on dope? 1986. He wins the Ross by a margin of 74 points. Are you *****ing kidding me? I was a fetus back in '86, are these numbers real? Has someone been altering the record books? Good lord, 163 assists? Without scoring a goal he wins the Ross! 1987, he wins the scoring title by 75 points. With 121 assists, he wins the scoring title by a healthy margin without even scoring a goal, AGAIN. Didn't think ONCE was enough Wayne?

I know we've all seen these numbers before, but they deserve to be repeated. This kind of statistical dominance is unparalleled. Of course, then he left the Edmonton Oilers and could only manage to lead the league in scoring a dismal three times. Three times Wayne? Come on.

I mean, he has a THOUSAND POINTS on #2, Messier. Messier has 37 points on #3, Howe. WHAT? Are we missing players here? What's with the dropoff? What the freaking crap? How did this happen? How could anyone dominate like that? Was Hockey fixed in the 80's?

Stats don't prove a player, sure. 200 points in the 80's isn't equivalent to 200 points in the 90s and all. But the Margin between Gretzky's stats and the next guy is simply mind boggling. I literally cannot imagine how it happened. I can't concieve of a guy going out and scoring 92 goals in a season, or hitting 163 assists. It just blows my mind, I don't understand what that would look like on a game by game basis.

In all of Hockey history, the only two players who really approach that statistical dominance are Orr and Lemieux, right? Lemieux, projected over a healthy career as long as Gretzky's, probably outscores him. But that's projected, we don't know. Same deal with Orr, if he'd been a forward and stayed healthy, maybe he'd have Gretzky like numbers. The difference is Gretzky did it. The problem is that you take any other player and you have to try to prove that they're the best, with Gretzky you don't need to debate or argue, the numbers just speak for themselves.

Now having said all that... I don't necessarily think that means Gretzky is better than Bobby Orr. I think its unfair to compare because even a defensemen like Bobby Orr is still a defensemen and Gretzky is a forward. But to me, what Gretzky did makes him as good as anyone else who ever played the game. I think it's kind of crazy (though a lot of fun, which is why we debate it all the time) to try to pick anyone as a clear cut number one of all time, but I think that no matter who you pick, Gretzky has to be at least tied for the first overall. Anything below requires far, far too much denial of overwhelming statisical evidence. And he's the only player who I can say that about.

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