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Where does Bure fit in the grand scheme of things?

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Old
07-27-2006, 10:34 PM
  #26
The_Eck
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
I find "exciting" to be an incredible subjective term. I wouldn't rate him as one of the most exciting players I've ever seen. I'd say he's probably the most explosive player I've ever seen, and the fastest skater I've ever seen. A treat to watch with the puck on his stick? Damn straight. I find a great hit to be exciting. I find a fight exciting. I find a great backcheck to be exciting. Stickhandling? Exciting. Great speed? Exciting. Tenacious forecheck? Exciting. Most exciting? Mario, Wayne, Bobby Orr, Rocket Richard, Guy Lafleur would be ahead of Pavel. I found guys like Trottier, Beliveau and Clarke were more exciting, but again, that's a preference thing, and a reflection of what I find exciting.

Top goal scorers? I'd rate Mario, Esposito, the Hulls, Bossy, Howe, Lafleur and Rocket Richard light years ahead of Bure. Bure was more of a dangler - a guy who used his speed and stickhandling to score goals. He had a great shot, but not in the class of those mentioned above. Gretzky was a shooting arsenal who used his vision and anticipation, instead of pure goal-scoring instincts, to break the records.

I wouldn't rate Bure as one of the top 100 players of all-time. I'd take Neely ahead of him in a heart-beat. Neely was nearly as good of a goal scorer as Bure, but a much more physical presence and a better team player. I can name several Russian/Soviet forwards I'd take ahead of Bure: Makarov, Larionov, Fedorov, Kharlamov, Yakushev, Mikhailov. I'd also take Fetisov and Tretiak among the non-forwards.
You forgot Bobrov.

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07-28-2006, 01:32 PM
  #27
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The point of hockey is to score goals, no? Bure, bar his knee-injuries off coarse could do that like few others thanks to his speed and stickhandling, so wouldn't his one-dimensional game still be as valuable, if not more so, as someone with more assists than he? 100g vs 50g, 50a is really what this is about.

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07-29-2006, 12:53 PM
  #28
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My two cents, the HHOF makes a big deal out of greatest player from x country. Not meant to belittle but see example of Joe Mullen Bure is the greatest pure Russian goal scorer the NHL has seen and he's probably the longest lasting big time russian goal scorer, Mogilny is better all around and has some great scoring seasons. But pavel is the 1st great russian goal scorer. He should be in the HHOF for his stats and flash and skill mostly and as well as the second point, of being a legendary russian player.

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07-29-2006, 04:01 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Forsberg4ever View Post
The point of hockey is to score goals, no? Bure, bar his knee-injuries off coarse could do that like few others thanks to his speed and stickhandling, so wouldn't his one-dimensional game still be as valuable, if not more so, as someone with more assists than he? 100g vs 50g, 50a is really what this is about.
I'd take the player that has the ability to makes those around him much better. For example, I wouldn't hesitate taking Forsberg over Bure.

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07-30-2006, 01:02 AM
  #30
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Players with five 50-goal seasons:

Wayne Gretzky
Mario Lemieux
Mike Bossy
Marcel Dionne
Steve Yzerman
Brett Hull
Guy Lafleur
Bobby Hull
Phil Esposito
Pavel Bure

... that alone should guarantee him a spot in the HHOF. Never mind how exciting he was when he was doing it. Anyone who can be put on a list that small with names that legendary has to be considered an all-time great.

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07-30-2006, 01:51 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by NJrocket24 View Post
My two cents, the HHOF makes a big deal out of greatest player from x country. Not meant to belittle but see example of Joe Mullen Bure is the greatest pure Russian goal scorer the NHL has seen and he's probably the longest lasting big time russian goal scorer, Mogilny is better all around and has some great scoring seasons. But pavel is the 1st great russian goal scorer. He should be in the HHOF for his stats and flash and skill mostly and as well as the second point, of being a legendary russian player.
are you saying Bure should have been selected over Duff? thats insanity!!

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07-31-2006, 12:55 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by XploD View Post
Exactly. He never was the best player in the world but I would argue in terms of talent and what he was able to do with the puck on the ice, he was second to none. and that is why he should be a no brainer for the hall.


Edited, I just worded it a bit oddly. I'm a little jet-lagged. Just got back from Crete.

I meant that he's a player that won't be remembered for Cup wins or incredible numbers but for the magic he displayed on the ice. I can't understand why the Hall would overlook this and why people here think that it should be overlooked.
'he was on par with mario in terms of what he could do with the puck"



Not on par no.........next level.Only place he was on par with lemieux was in skating(he was better then Mario there) Everywhere else he was not as talented as lemieux.Even his stickhandling(which was god like) was slightly below Lemieux's.And in all other areas Lemieux was so much more naturally talented and gifted it's not even close.Comparing Lemieux's playmaking abilities to Bure's is like comparing a 2nd grader to Einstein in terms of intelligence.

Bure is in the next tier down as far as pure talent is concerned.Lemieux had just about everything over everyone when it came to offensive skills.

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07-31-2006, 01:12 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Forsberg4ever View Post
1992-93 Vancouver Canucks 83 60 50 110
1993-94 Vancouver Canucks 76 60 47 107
1997-98 Vancouver Canucks 82 51 39 90
1998-99 Florida Panthers 11 13 3 16
1999-00 Florida Panthers 74 58 36 94
2000-01 Florida Panthers 82 59 33 92

These were Pavel's best seasons, which really are truely impressive, 98-99 more so if he had played more games. If he had scored over 30 in the 94-95 season and been totally healthy with Mogilny on the Canucks for 95-96 and 96-97, I think his numbers would be undeniable HoF material. He should be in the Hall of Fame based on what he was able to do in between knee injuries but unlike Orr he didn't dominate long enoguh to really cement his status as an all time great, which holds him back when comparing him to other legends.

Edit: 500 posts! it may not be the four digit milestone, but i think quality over quantity is what counts.
Pavel was absolutely amazing in 98-99. Those 11 games for us, he was making the team seem as if we were headed to the playoffs but the game of his injury (7-5 loss against Colorado, injured by Adam Foote), that was the end of our playoff chances that year. He played similar to the old Bure then, absolutely explosive, would just take off, I remember his first game as a panther and the sweeping explosion where he'd get the long pass and head in on a breakaway, it was amazing to watch. After the injury and the surgery in 98-99, he became a player who relied more on his talent. He still had great speed but he scored a lot of goals on onetimers or tap-ins by the post where he'd sneak out of nowhere and put it in. It was largely his phenomenal anticipation that got it done after that, which in scoring a 58 and a 59 goal season is an amazing feat. Had he still had his blinding speed then, he could have pushed 70 goals and that was in the clutch and grab-at-its-peak era. Imagine him at his best playing today with the new rules. I really believe he would be a potential 70 goal scorer, even moreso a scorer than Ovechkin although Ovechkin is the only one comparable to Bure in the NHL today IMO in terms of pure offensive ability.

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07-31-2006, 02:08 PM
  #34
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One thing a lot of people forget is that (before the injury at least) Bure had a real physical element to his game as well. Watch this clip from Game 6 of the '94 finals, within the space of 20 seconds he
a) Drops Tikkannen like a bad habit when Tikk had him lined up for a check from 15 feet away, and
b) Absolutely punishes Leetch behind the net as he's retrieving a puck

Game 6 highlight (1.7MB, right-click, save as)

It's pretty damn rare to find a 'finesse' player who can bring that kind of physical element to his play as well.

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07-31-2006, 05:16 PM
  #35
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Pavel Bure Playoffs Stats

GP G A Pts PIM
1991-92 Vancouver NHL 13 6 4 10 14
1992-93 Vancouver NHL 12 5 7 12 8
1993-94 Vancouver NHL 24 16 15 31 40
1994-95 Vancouver NHL 11 7 6 13 10
1999-00 Florida NHL 4 1 3 4 2

Considering the fact that Bure only made the playoffs only 5 time mostly in Vancouver and his best playoff run was in the cinderella run in 94 these stas are okay cept for 2000 where Scott Stevens completely shut him down in the sweep by the Devils.

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07-31-2006, 05:27 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by colonel_korn View Post
One thing a lot of people forget is that (before the injury at least) Bure had a real physical element to his game as well. Watch this clip from Game 6 of the '94 finals, within the space of 20 seconds he
a) Drops Tikkannen like a bad habit when Tikk had him lined up for a check from 15 feet away, and
b) Absolutely punishes Leetch behind the net as he's retrieving a puck

Game 6 highlight (1.7MB, right-click, save as)

It's pretty damn rare to find a 'finesse' player who can bring that kind of physical element to his play as well.
That's the only time where Bure was physical was in that Cup run. He wasn't afraid of physical play but he rarely dished it out.

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07-31-2006, 05:37 PM
  #37
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That's the only time where Bure was physical was in that Cup run. He wasn't afraid of physical play but he rarely dished it out.
Shane Churla might disagree with you.

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07-31-2006, 05:44 PM
  #38
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No, I'd say that Bure played physical (to the point where you could make the argument he was adding a new element to his game) from the 94 season, through to his first major knee injury. When he came back in 96-97 he was much more tentative.

At times after that, he still would play physical from time to time - at certain times in FLA, and certainly when playing for Russia. Bure was good for a couple good checks per game in Nagano, I remember one monster hit he threw in the finals against the Czechs. Honestly if you watched many of his games (aside from highlights), he seemed to step up his attempts at physical play in big games/international play. Of course he wasn't necessarily good at it and was in fact rather wreckless; In Salt Lake, in attempting to throw a hit on a (Finnish?) player, his elbow and stick came up almost exactly like the high stick on Jay Wells in '94, earning him at least 2 (can't remember). But at least he tried.

For the most part though, I would agree that despite not being afraid of the physical aspect, he didn't go out of his way to throw his weight around. Regardless, physical play was not his forte', and we should all be thankful for that, because I'll take a 60 goal Russian Rocket over a 150 PIM grinder any day.

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07-31-2006, 05:50 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by DaBadGuy7 View Post
Pavel Bure Playoffs Stats

GP G A Pts PIM
1991-92 Vancouver NHL 13 6 4 10 14
1992-93 Vancouver NHL 12 5 7 12 8
1993-94 Vancouver NHL 24 16 15 31 40
1994-95 Vancouver NHL 11 7 6 13 10
1999-00 Florida NHL 4 1 3 4 2

Considering the fact that Bure only made the playoffs only 5 time mostly in Vancouver and his best playoff run was in the cinderella run in 94 these stas are okay cept for 2000 where Scott Stevens completely shut him down in the sweep by the Devils.
Don't let the numbers deceive you on the 1992 playoffs. Most of his points (I think seven or eight) came in the final three games of the Winnipeg series, when the Canucks outscored the Jets 21-5 to rally from a 3-1 deficit. In that Edmonton series, MacTavish and Lowe really did a number on him, sort of a "welcome to the NHL, kid" situation. I'll give Pavel the benefit of the doubt there, because MacT and Lowe were shutting down opponents long before Bure ever joined the NHL.

But 1993 was a different story. When the Canucks needed the big goal against LA, Bure failed to deliver. And this time it wasn't MacT and Lowe shadowing him. It was Alexei Zhitnik. I'm not a Bure fan, but I was never more disappointed with his play than I was after the series against LA.

Bure was never really one to create physical contact. You'd rarely see him get involved in corner battles or finish his check along the boards. The Tkachuk slew foot in the 1992 playoffs against Winnipeg and the Churla hit were more retaliatory. That hit was a key point in the series. Dallas gave Bure a lot more room after that hit, and Bure, who was already dominating (for some reason, he ratched his play up considerably starting with Game 7 against Calgary), responded by taking over the rest of the Dallas series. Game 2 versus Dallas is as good of a road game as you'll ever see in the Stanley Cup playoffs.

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07-31-2006, 10:07 PM
  #40
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True he wasn't the most physical player out there, and he did shy away from it, but if you got him angry,boy did he ever come out to play.

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08-01-2006, 04:06 PM
  #41
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'he was on par with mario in terms of what he could do with the puck"



Not on par no.........next level.Only place he was on par with lemieux was in skating(he was better then Mario there) Everywhere else he was not as talented as lemieux.Even his stickhandling(which was god like) was slightly below Lemieux's.And in all other areas Lemieux was so much more naturally talented and gifted it's not even close.Comparing Lemieux's playmaking abilities to Bure's is like comparing a 2nd grader to Einstein in terms of intelligence.

Bure is in the next tier down as far as pure talent is concerned.Lemieux had just about everything over everyone when it came to offensive skills.
Not skating, and imo Bure's stickhandling skills were just as good. So only thing he's better than is passing when it comes to "what you can do with the puck" as I said. In any case, if he's better than Lemieux in skating and just "slightly" worse in stickhandling then why shouldn't he be in the hall? To be mentioned in the same breath as Lemieux when we talk about offensive skills should get you in the hall.

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08-01-2006, 06:01 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by XploD View Post
Not skating, and imo Bure's stickhandling skills were just as good. So only thing he's better than is passing when it comes to "what you can do with the puck" as I said. In any case, if he's better than Lemieux in skating and just "slightly" worse in stickhandling then why shouldn't he be in the hall? To be mentioned in the same breath as Lemieux when we talk about offensive skills should get you in the hall.
I'm not saying he should'nt be in the hall (i think he should be) but he was'nt on par with Lemieux in terms of what he could physically do with the puck. He's one of the only guys who's relatively close though,i'll give you that.His shooting,stickhandling(close), hands,touch,and vision and passing ability..............all well below Mario's ability.He also was'nt 6'4 220 either.Mario had it all over him just like he had it all over every other guy.

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08-01-2006, 06:45 PM
  #43
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I'm not saying he should'nt be in the hall (i think he should be) but he was'nt on par with Lemieux in terms of what he could physically do with the puck. He's one of the only guys who's relatively close though,i'll give you that.His shooting,stickhandling(close), hands,touch,and vision and passing ability..............all well below Mario's ability.He also was'nt 6'4 220 either.Mario had it all over him just like he had it all over every other guy.
As I said, imo his stickhandling was just as good as Lemieux and I've watched them both play during their primes. Stickhandling, hands and touch is pretty much the same thing. To be able to be a great stickhandler you have to have good hands and touch but I agree that Lemieux might have had slightly better hands. Bure was by far the better skater though (maybe Lemieux was close in a race around the rink but that isn't a game situation) and he could stickhandle at this speed like no other too and that's why I say that they're even.

I'm not disputing the fact that Lemieux was the greater player (by far), but Bure wasn't far behind in offensive talent.

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08-02-2006, 01:24 PM
  #44
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Ultimately, he ranks as a top 10 talent I believe, his career was hampered by injuries.

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08-02-2006, 02:43 PM
  #45
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As I said, imo his stickhandling was just as good as Lemieux and I've watched them both play during their primes. Stickhandling, hands and touch is pretty much the same thing. To be able to be a great stickhandler you have to have good hands and touch but I agree that Lemieux might have had slightly better hands. Bure was by far the better skater though (maybe Lemieux was close in a race around the rink but that isn't a game situation) and he could stickhandle at this speed like no other too and that's why I say that they're even.

I'm not disputing the fact that Lemieux was the greater player (by far), but Bure wasn't far behind in offensive talent.
You've got some good points.I still say there was quite a divide between them in terms of offensive talent.Mario was always 30-40 or more ponits ahead of that guy every year even when he'd only play about 60-70 games.Other then stick-handling and skating.......................the gap is pretty huge.The numbers just don't lie when comparing those two guys.

Bure is a level down,i think most if not all would agree.

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08-02-2006, 04:30 PM
  #46
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You've got some good points.I still say there was quite a divide between them in terms of offensive talent.Mario was always 30-40 or more ponits ahead of that guy every year even when he'd only play about 60-70 games. Other then stick-handling and skating.......................the gap is pretty huge. The numbers just don't lie when comparing those two guys.

Bure is a level down,i think most if not all would agree.
Yeah you're right... In terms of overall offensive talent Lemieux was better cause he got 30-40 more assists per year than Bure but if we're talking about goal scoring talent and what they could do with the puck, Bure was even in my eyes.
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Other then stick-handling and skating.......................the gap is pretty huge
And shooting.

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08-03-2006, 01:42 PM
  #47
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Yeah you're right... In terms of overall offensive talent Lemieux was better cause he got 30-40 more assists per year than Bure but if we're talking about goal scoring talent and what they could do with the puck, Bure was even in my eyes.

And shooting.

Hmm,i don't even think in terms of goalscoring he was level with Mario IMO.Mario always had a lot more goals then Bure and would usually lap him by a lot while playing a lot less games.What's Bures best year for goals scored? i think it's 60 isn't it? Mario's is 85 i think.And even when Bure was scoring 50-60 goals Mario was getting that too and getting it in less games. For all the goal scoring gifts Bure had his goal scoring numbers don't stack up to mario's either.I think maybe you are focusing too much on the highlight reel abilities of Bure more so then how actually productive he was next to a guy of Mario's abilities.Mario had more of a shot array then Bure too.Lemieux could just beat you more ways then bure when it came to goal scoring.The numbers between Bure and Mario are just too far apart to support him being Mario's equal in goal scoring either.

What i will give you is that i don't think i have ever seen anyone as CLOSE to mario in terms of potential for scoring goals.But there is still a gap there,it's not as big as the gap between them when it comes to overall offensive production but there is still some separation between them. There just isn't any area where Bure is mario's equal,goal scoring production and gifts to be able to score them is one area where he is relatively close.But as gifted as he was there he was a little less gifted then the big guy.There's no shame in that though,it's a compliment really.

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08-03-2006, 02:48 PM
  #48
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Hmm,i don't even think in terms of goalscoring he was level with Mario IMO.Mario always had a lot more goals then Bure and would usually lap him by a lot while playing a lot less games.What's Bures best year for goals scored? i think it's 60 isn't it? Mario's is 85 i think. And even when Bure was scoring 50-60 goals Mario was getting that too and getting it in less games. For all the goal scoring gifts Bure had his goal scoring numbers don't stack up to mario's either.I think maybe you are focusing too much on the highlight reel abilities of Bure more so then how actually productive he was next to a guy of Mario's abilities.Mario had more of a shot array then Bure too.Lemieux could just beat you more ways then bure when it came to goal scoring.The numbers between Bure and Mario are just too far apart to support him being Mario's equal in goal scoring either.

What i will give you is that i don't think i have ever seen anyone as CLOSE to mario in terms of potential for scoring goals.But there is still a gap there,it's not as big as the gap between them when it comes to overall offensive production but there is still some separation between them. There just isn't any area where Bure is mario's equal,goal scoring production and gifts to be able to score them is one area where he is relatively close.But as gifted as he was there he was a little less gifted then the big guy.There's no shame in that though,it's a compliment really.
You have made some good points. However it's hard comparing the two with just numbers, Bure got his league leading 60 goals at the start of the clutch and grab era when there were only 3 teams (of 26) with over 300 goals scored. There were 10 teams (of 21) with 300 goals scored in Mario's 85 season.

Also Bure in the 90's played on a much worse team than Mario's Penguins. Compare the two teams of Mario's two 69 goal seasons with the ones of Bure's two 60 goal seasons.

Mario:
http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagu...000501993.html
http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagu...000501996.html

Bure:
http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagu...000391993.html
http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagu...000391994.html

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08-03-2006, 03:14 PM
  #49
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I wouldn't put Bure in the same class as Mario, goal scoring wise. That's no slight on Bure... there's no shame in that. I'd rate Bure as good a goal scorer as just about anybody else.

You've got to keep in mind that Bure's bread and butter was goal scoring... that was the whole focus of his game. He was always looking to score, smelled a potential break like a shark smelled blood. Mario was more cerebral and much more well rounded offensively and thus looked to pass more. Mario scored more goals than Bure, and as if that wasn't enough, he was adding like 100 assists to go with them... you have to think, gee, what if Mario decided he wanted these goals to himself? Surely he'd have been able to pad his goal stats. It would be selfish and inefficient to squander those elite playmaking abilities, sure, but I don't see why he couldn't have scored 100 goals if he felt like it.

Same goes for Gretzky when he was in his prime, yet to be GarySuter-ed. Gretzky was scoring 60-90 goals and getting like 120-163 (!) assists. Think of how many goals he could have added to his total if he traded in some of those assists. 120 goals in 81?

Not that Bure didn't have a passing game, but he was always out to score, as he should have been. So naturally his goal totals are pretty much bang on with his scoring abilities.

As for where Bure stands, well, I think I've already made myself clear in my other topic... I put him in the same class as Theo Fleury and Teemu Selanne, slightly under a Doug Gilmour. Bure's in a corner by himself, though... he was definitely singular kind of talent.

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08-03-2006, 03:20 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by XploD View Post
You have made some good points. However it's hard comparing the two with just numbers, Bure got his league leading 60 goals at the start of the clutch and grab era when there were only 3 teams (of 26) with over 300 goals scored. There were 10 teams (of 21) with 300 goals scored in Mario's 85 season.

Also Bure in the 90's played on a much worse team than Mario's Penguins. Compare the two teams of Mario's two 69 goal seasons with the ones of Bure's two 60 goal seasons.

Mario:
http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagu...000501993.html
http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagu...000501996.html

Bure:
http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagu...000391993.html
http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagu...000391994.html
Point taken.myself though.If my team is down a goal or tied and i can pick one guy to tap on the shoulder to score a goal for me to tie it up and i can pick any player that i've seen play since i started watching hockey around 1975....................Lemieux is the guy whose shoulder i'm tapping,i don't even have to think about it.You can mention guys like Bossy,Bure,Gretzky,Jagr,Lafleur ,Hull on that bench and i still would'nt bat an eye picking Mario.I've personally never seen a better goal scorer,a player that could score in so many ways.He just had so many weapons and was so gifted.It's a shame Lemieux played most of his career in less then 100% physical condition,the guy was always hurt with the back real bad.To me Gretzky's record of 92 goals is gone with a healthy Lemieux in his prime.He's the only guy i've ever watched who i could have seen cracking the 100 goal barrier in an nhl season. He's the most gifted goal scorer i've ever seen in my whole life,no-one gave you so many dimensions and looks to defend against.

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