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Old
11-14-2003, 09:39 AM
  #51
Mizral
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Hemskyfan,

Did you forget to take your pills this morning?

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Old
11-14-2003, 10:23 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Mizral
First off, Thome, don't overreact. I agree with you, the Oilers prospects are top 10 - 15 in the league no doubt in my mind. They have a great stable of guys! In terms of depth, I would say maybe only 2 or 3 teams can match the Oilers in depth of prospects.

I just worry that I don't know if I see enough top end potential in the Oilers prospect. IE: Superstars, or even sub-stars.



Okay, I think we're on the same page here. Just some things I'd like to point out:

#1 - Jason Smith will probobly slow down in 3 years. Will he be a #3 defenseman in 3 - 5 years? Probobly not. I liken Smith to Murray Baron. I feel he is already slowly declining, but he should be a useful player for a few more years, no question. But will he be a good #3 man? I really don't know. Also, as the Oilers get better, standards will be raised. Smith may not live up to them.

#2 - Can we expect that Lowe will keep all of Smyth, Brewer, and York for 3 more years? I really don't think so. Maybe York & one of the other two, but it doesn't seem possible to me. Case in point: 3 years ago, the Oilers core was Weight, Guerin, Niinimaa, Carter, and Smyth. Only one of those guys are still around now. (not including Salo, whom I think we can all agree on is gonzo at the soonest possible time) Heck, last year, Smyth, Comrie, York, Carter, Niinimaa, Brewer. (Only three of those are still around, two are already gone, and the third is on his way)

#3 - This is a big one for me: Can Jeff Deslauriers be a #1 goaltender? I personally have the utmost faith in him that he will. However, on the off chance he doesn't.. it could look real bad..

I don't think I'm being overly pessimistic. I do think I'm looking at this quite realistically. I don't think it's realistic to expect everything to pan out in terms of prospects 100%, and all the other good players to be kept around no matter what happens.
It's true, we won't get 100% of our prospects that pan out. I'm happy to feel that our percentage will be higher than past years, but no team has a 100% success rate. With the depth the Oilers have in prospects, I like our chances. Guys that could be steals like Joukov and Brodziak will help, too.

I agree with your points #1 and #3. Smith may not be a top-3 guy on the team in 3 years, but either he does or the team gets a guy who will be, either through development (Semenov? Lynch?) or trade.

I also agree that goaltending depth is a bit of a concern, and that we're pinning all our hopes on JDD for the future. As we said, hard to get 100% of our prospects to develop, and JDD could be one of those that doesn't develop fully. Definitely a concern that would likely have to be addressed by trade.

Point #2 has been mentioned already - 3 years ago will have NO bearing on 3 years from NOW. Either the CBA restructures enough so that Edmonton can retain its best players, or the Oilers fold or move. So all this crystal-ball gazing has to be done with the thought that the Oilers can keep their top players - otherwise there's no future for NHL hockey in Edmonton.

Bart

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Old
11-14-2003, 10:29 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hemskyfan
Oh and Garfield, "insulting" Edmonton about our City of Champs nickname doesn't make us angry, it amuses us. Seriously. Only jealous fans that are green with envy try to insult our cities nickname. Thats a fact, jack.
Yeah right. What champions ?? 14 years ago hardly constitutes a City of Champions. The Esks haven't won anything recently and the Oilers haven't won a playoff series in 6 years. Wow....that's real champions !!

What kind of city would give themselves a name like that anyway ??

I'll tell you, one with an inferiority complex. Calgary is by far the nicer city (anyone will tell you that). So instead, you still use a name that has lost ALL meaning !! There are no champions in Edmonton anymore.

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Old
11-14-2003, 10:36 AM
  #54
Mizral
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Good reply, Bart.

I happen to share your view regarding all three things. The #1 issue of Smith, I think he may slowly become a 3rd pairing guy over the next two years. Given Lowe's track record with veterans making over 2 million dollars, I think it's unlikely Smith stays an Oiler for much longer. But you never know for sure. I think Smith would be a great 3rd pairing leadership/PK/crease-clearer down the road when the Oilers are coming closer to finishing their rebuild in a year or two. But it'd have to be at a reduced price.

#2, I'm not so sure about the choices you offered (I tend to think it'll be somewhere in between those two ideas). However, I do agree that it's something you can't predict either way due to the CBA uncertainty, so you may as well just deal with things like you normally would.

#3, the goaltending is a concern. Can Conklin be an NHL backup? Can JDD be a starter someday? But more importantly, who is going to start when Salo goes? JDD clearly won't be ready, and Conklin might proove to not be good enough (let's not forget he was an AHL starter last season). I believe Conklin could be like a Manny Legace-type backup, but I don't think that's the type of guy you want starting. I'd like to see this addressed with a trade. Jani Hurme would be nice.

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Old
11-14-2003, 10:40 AM
  #55
Mizral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfield
I'll tell you, one with an inferiority complex. Calgary is by far the nicer city (anyone will tell you that). So instead, you still use a name that has lost ALL meaning !! There are no champions in Edmonton anymore.

I love the Flames, but Calgary is a hole. I've been to Calgary about 7 times and Edmonton about the same, and Edmonton to me is a much better city. But I'll take Vancouver over both of 'em

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Old
11-14-2003, 10:48 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Good reply, Bart.

I happen to share your view regarding all three things. The #1 issue of Smith, I think he may slowly become a 3rd pairing guy over the next two years. Given Lowe's track record with veterans making over 2 million dollars, I think it's unlikely Smith stays an Oiler for much longer. But you never know for sure. I think Smith would be a great 3rd pairing leadership/PK/crease-clearer down the road when the Oilers are coming closer to finishing their rebuild in a year or two. But it'd have to be at a reduced price.

#2, I'm not so sure about the choices you offered (I tend to think it'll be somewhere in between those two ideas). However, I do agree that it's something you can't predict either way due to the CBA uncertainty, so you may as well just deal with things like you normally would.

#3, the goaltending is a concern. Can Conklin be an NHL backup? Can JDD be a starter someday? But more importantly, who is going to start when Salo goes? JDD clearly won't be ready, and Conklin might proove to not be good enough (let's not forget he was an AHL starter last season). I believe Conklin could be like a Manny Legace-type backup, but I don't think that's the type of guy you want starting. I'd like to see this addressed with a trade. Jani Hurme would be nice.
True, Smith might price himself out of Edmonton...he nearly did by going to arbitration two years ago! But if he decided to sign a Moreau-like contract, he could be a staple on the blue line for a while. I guess it depends on the whole UFA deal and how that might change in the new CBA. Certainly I'd say the Oilers should get something for him if they'd lose him to UFA, but that goes for pretty much any player on the roster...even Staios, whom I hope they can sign for a longer term as well!

Hurme might be OK in a post-Salo, pre-JDD era - there are some other options out there as well. None of whom excite me all that much, but I can't say I was excited at the time we got Salo, either, since he wasn't playing well for the Islanders at the time.

As usual, just have to trust Lowe & Co. on their scouting and player assessments to find someone good (or even 'great'?) for the Oilers, and hope that Conklin can play well and handle the load for a while here until Salo gets back on track (he said with crossed fingers)...

Bart

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Old
11-14-2003, 11:37 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfield
Yeah right. What champions ?? 14 years ago hardly constitutes a City of Champions. The Esks haven't won anything recently and the Oilers haven't won a playoff series in 6 years. Wow....that's real champions !!

What kind of city would give themselves a name like that anyway ??

I'll tell you, one with an inferiority complex. Calgary is by far the nicer city (anyone will tell you that). So instead, you still use a name that has lost ALL meaning !! There are no champions in Edmonton anymore.
Hmmm... where is Randy Ferby from?

Where have more major international sporting events been held in the last 5 years?

What Canadian University resides there that continually wins national championships in various sports?

I said it before... kindly remove your cranial cavity from your anal one. There are more than nhl hockey and cfl football out there.

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Old
11-14-2003, 12:06 PM
  #58
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I gotta agree with Mizral on two points...

The first one being that the Oilers are putting all their eggs into one basket with the goalie situation. Deslauriers sounds like a kid with some great potential, but what if he never lives up to his billing? Salo looks like he's already reached his peak and Conklin, although good, is unproven as a starter. The Oilers don't really put a lot of emphasis on drafting goalies. Before 2002, when was the last time the Oilers drafted top goalie prospect?

The second point is that I agree that the Oilers do not have much top line depth in their system. Smyth and Hemsky are two. Dvorak and York are borderline. And who knows that Comrie will fetch us? During the past few years we've been going the safe route...drafting large forwards that are defensively aware with decent skills. Even if they all develop nicely we'll still end up with a group of second and third line players, but no high end offensive players. I'm not complaining about the player depth of the Oilers...in fact we're probably in the top 5 now in terms of prospect depth. I'm just saying that once in a while the Oilers should gamble on someone with top offensive potential, like drafting Parise last year instead of Pouliot. Sure, those players are hit or miss, but what prospect isn't? To tell you the truth, I'd rather have one prospect with top line scoring potential than three sure-fire depth players.

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Old
11-14-2003, 12:57 PM
  #59
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Mizral - I know that I've disagreed with you before but I do value your opinion. Probably I'm always seeing through homer glasses which makes it difficult to see your viewpoints. Question: is there a current backup keeper out there right now who you feel might be a very good #1 keeper and improve the goalie situation here? I.e. Hurme, Kiprusoff, Toskala, Biron (he's #1 - buffalo but...), Boucher, Gerber, etc.

alzardnp1 - Actually I thought that Pouliot WAS the Oilers' attempt at picking a top line talent instead of a role player type (Parise). I get the feeling that Parise could be like a Cliff Ronning type (gritty character dude who has the talent to score) while Pouliot could be a top line talent who could score a ton of points.

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Old
11-14-2003, 02:13 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfield
Calgary is by far the nicer city (anyone will tell you that).
Umm...Calgary has no trees. Edmonton's river valley is arguably one of the nicest in North America.

Calgary is Fugly. I've been there enough to know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfield
There are no champions in Edmonton anymore.
We'll see on Monday.

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Old
11-14-2003, 02:15 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Hemmer
Umm...Calgary has no trees. Edmonton's river valley is arguably one of the nicest in North America.

Calgary is Fugly. I've been there enough to know.



We'll see on Monday.

Oh yeah, and FWIW, the now defunct Trappers were awesome in PCL League AAA Ball here for year with at least 2 championships, and the UofA Golden Bears hockey team is something like 57-0 over the past few seasons.

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Old
11-14-2003, 02:41 PM
  #62
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Oh Garfield

After a tough day, it's always nice to go home and laugh at a troll's ramblings. Thanks garfield. Seriously though, the act is wearing thin. Either a) be polite and intelligent, or b) shut your hole. Why criticize our slogan? Does it bother you that profusely? This board is supposed to be about hockey, and you're making it personal by criticizing our whole city. In any case, the slogan has much more meaning than just winning championships. Its about the attitude of our citizens, the way we conduct ourselves with dignity. Its about a commitment to excellence. We don't always win, but we demand our teams to play up to their highest ability. Are we satisfied with the playoffs (Oilers), or about being a perrenial contender (Eskimos)? No, we most certainly are not. Do you think we're hurt by your insults? No, in fact, they only serve to make you look like a fool. The Oilers and the city of Edmonton are both full of faults, and most of us welcome intelligent, constructive criticism. You bring none of that, instead you spew wretched bile. You say we have an inferiority complex? If you were secure, then you would have no desire to insult us. Spew on, Garfield, spew on. But remember, it doesn't bother us, it only makes you seem immature and ignorant.

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Old
11-14-2003, 03:00 PM
  #63
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You guys are crazy. This thread was about the Oilers being exciting and entertaining, and that I loved to watch them play. It had nothing to do with the Oilers future, or getting into flame wars.

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Old
11-15-2003, 07:46 AM
  #64
Mizral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neogeo69
Mizral - I know that I've disagreed with you before but I do value your opinion. Probably I'm always seeing through homer glasses which makes it difficult to see your viewpoints. Question: is there a current backup keeper out there right now who you feel might be a very good #1 keeper and improve the goalie situation here? I.e. Hurme, Kiprusoff, Toskala, Biron (he's #1 - buffalo but...), Boucher, Gerber, etc.
I think that there are a plethora of good goalies out there that could be had for next to nothing. But then you've got 3 NHL goaltenders (unless you recall Conklin). And with Salo, well, it doesn't look like you can do anything with Salo. Unless they trade Conklin (whom has little value and not many teams need more goalies), The question would be: is enough room in Edmonton for another goalie?

But that said, I have been a big fan of Hurme's for a while now. Last we saw Hurme, he was backstopping Luongo in Florida and playing very well. Hurme is in his late 20's, so he should be just now entering his prime of his career. I personally don't like Kiprusoff at all, Toskala I don't think the Sharks would deal, Biron I think is playing too well at the moment to move, Boucher I think is no better than Conklin but makes $2 million a season. Gerber I think is phenomenal, but the asking price in return for Gerber at this point is actually quite high as far as a backup goes. There might be no backup in the league worth more than Gerber right now (maybe Montreal's Garon, or Boston's Raycroft).

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11-15-2003, 07:51 AM
  #65
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[QUOTE=Mizral]I think that there are a plethora of good goalies out there that could be had for next to nothing. The problem is, you see, that with JDD starting in Toronto, Conklin is of no use to the Oilers on the farm anymore. And with Salo, well, it doesn't look like you can do anything with Salo. Unless they trade Conklin (whom has little value and not many teams need more goalies), I don't think there is enough room in Edmonton for another goalie.[QUOTE]

JDD is not starting with the Roadrunners - he still plays junior. They have Stephen Valiquette and Chris Madden in Toronto, with Kristian Antilla called up to fill in while Valley is with the Oilers. Another prospect goalie would get time in Toronto, since Madden seems to be a career AHL backup, and Valley hasn't proven himself yet, and he's no spring chicken

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Old
11-15-2003, 07:54 AM
  #66
Mizral
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JDD is not starting with the Roadrunners - he still plays junior. They have Stephen Valiquette and Chris Madden in Toronto, with Kristian Antilla called up to fill in while Valley is with the Oilers. Another prospect goalie would get time in Toronto, since Madden seems to be a career AHL backup, and Valley hasn't proven himself yet, and he's no spring chicken
ARGH! I just came back to edit it, I just remembered that! Stupid me! And damn you for beating me to it

You're right, they could simply recall Conklin (would have to pass through waivers at this point I'm sure). Still, I think they'd sooner recall Salo right now.

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Old
11-15-2003, 05:39 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfield
It says the Wings were in a huge funk and blew a 2 goal lead. I also saw EDM blow a 3 goal lead in the 1st period against the BLUES !! Would that not make the Blues exciting going by your reasoning. The Flyers are a very exciting team to watch, they hit everything in sight, I like that kind of hockey, not pond hockey like the Oilers play. I like defence and goaltending as well which the Oilers don't have any. The Islanders are a very good team, I think you don't know much about hockey. I suppose you still call Edmonton "City of Champions" LOL LOL !!

Seriously, you can't say that I don't know my hockey because I find many teams more exciting than the Oilers. That is homerism at it's best. If the Oilers had decent D and goaltending they'd be more exciting because they would win games.
They've been ten games above .500 for the last three seasons so how can you say that they'd be more exciting if they would win? Sounds like sour grapes to me.

Furthermore, you can add Gary Bettman's name to the list of people who would prefer for more nhl teams to adopt a less offensively stunted style of play, a la the Oilers whom he mentioned specifically. I'm guessing that he represents the majority of fans, to assume the opposite would be completely ridiculous.

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Old
11-15-2003, 07:11 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral

I see no #1 defensemen potentials in the Edmonton roster.

I love the depth of the youngsters in the organization. But it's the top end talent I'm worried about. I worry things will rebuild like they have done in Buffalo. One real good player (Satan) and a bunch of 2nd liners, no #1 goaltender or #1 defenseman either.
The Oilers have two potential #1 defensement in their organization. Alexei Semenov and Eric Brewer both can become that type of defensemen. So Brewer and Semenov struggled out of the gate this year. Brewer is already turning it around and Semenov will as well.

I do however agree with some of your assessment Mizral, the Oilers do seem to be lacking that true top end talent forward talent. The only really young Oiler player/prospect that has true top end potential is Hemsky and to a lesser extent Mike Comrie. That could definitely be a problem in the future. Then again, who knows where Mikhnov, Pouliot or Niinimaki will be in a few years. They definitely could surprise.

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