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Old
07-26-2006, 12:00 AM
  #76
Synergy27
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Originally Posted by tom_servo View Post
The draft was simply center-heavy, especially at the top.
Wow, you know what, I never really noticed that. 10 of the first 13 picks were centers... jeez. I guess my ignorance stems from the fact that I don't really consider Kessel to project to be an NHL center (definitely a winger), and picking him just seemed alot more logical for the Penguins.

But, while BPA is usually the strategy of choice for GMs at the draft, you would think that a team in Pittsburgh's situation (that is, owning the rights to two possible generational talents at the center position) would have made an attempt to move down in the draft. My question is: hypothetically, which is worth more in a trade, the #2 overall in a top heavy draft or Jordan Staal? Should be interesting to watch this play out.

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07-26-2006, 12:41 AM
  #77
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i wish he was a ranger.
Perfect match
Only if Crosby or malkin was in this team... damn

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07-26-2006, 06:53 AM
  #78
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Too bad the NHL won't allow it.
Not true, Bettman just discourages it.

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07-26-2006, 02:29 PM
  #79
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The Unthinkable?

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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
And that's the flip side of what i'm thinking. Even those cup winners had a guy like that. For all the talk about going out and getting these young centers via UFA, I can't think of any that have become available.

We keep saying "We'll wait till so and so becomes available" but they haven't and I don't know if that's going to change.

Ironically with names like Chara and Blake and Pronger available, I've probably seen more final piece defenseman than I have final piece forwards. And the real question is whether Staal is on that level. That is a matter of opinion.

I've seen some team's win the cup the last few years without that conerstone defenseman (Carolina, Tampa) but they all had at least a cornerstone forward and goalie.

Even team's like NJ, Detroit or Colorado that had the defenseman, needed a forward.

Staal looks good, but to me Malkin is just on that really special level.
Since we're probably 2 years away from being a legitimate contender for the Cup, does it make sense to trade JJ back to the Pens for Malkin? Tt would make them an instant favorite next year. We can even throw in Kasparitis for good measure. It'll give us the centerpiece player that we need in 2 years. Otherwise, we're nothing more than teasers in the next few with JJ. Whadaya think? Can Slats take the heat?

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07-26-2006, 02:34 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by BeBop View Post
Since we're probably 2 years away from being a legitimate contender for the Cup, does it make sense to trade JJ back to the Pens for Malkin? Tt would make them an instant favorite next year. We can even throw in Kasparitis for good measure. It'll give us the centerpiece player that we need in 2 years. Otherwise, we're nothing more than teasers in the next few with JJ. Whadaya think? Can Slats take the heat?
Jagr wouldn't agree to be dealt back to Pittsburgh, if you believe the things he's said

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07-26-2006, 02:37 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by BeBop View Post
Since we're probably 2 years away from being a legitimate contender for the Cup, does it make sense to trade JJ back to the Pens for Malkin? Tt would make them an instant favorite next year. We can even throw in Kasparitis for good measure. It'll give us the centerpiece player that we need in 2 years. Otherwise, we're nothing more than teasers in the next few with JJ. Whadaya think? Can Slats take the heat?
Do you really think the Rangers are 2 years away from being a legitimate contender? I see the exact opposite: the Rangers have 2 more years with JJ to try and win a Cup, if they are unable to, then they are 2 years away from total rebuild (Pens/Caps territory). The only difference is that they should have an abundance of young contributors by that point, so it shouldn't take too long to turn things around.

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07-26-2006, 03:57 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synergy27 View Post
Do you really think the Rangers are 2 years away from being a legitimate contender? I see the exact opposite: the Rangers have 2 more years with JJ to try and win a Cup, if they are unable to, then they are 2 years away from total rebuild (Pens/Caps territory). The only difference is that they should have an abundance of young contributors by that point, so it shouldn't take too long to turn things around.
Thats exactly how I see it.

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07-26-2006, 04:37 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synergy27 View Post
Do you really think the Rangers are 2 years away from being a legitimate contender? I see the exact opposite: the Rangers have 2 more years with JJ to try and win a Cup, if they are unable to, then they are 2 years away from total rebuild (Pens/Caps territory). The only difference is that they should have an abundance of young contributors by that point, so it shouldn't take too long to turn things around.
I disagree. Two years from now you'll have depth and as you pointed out a bunch of young contributers that'll form the core of a team.

At that point, life after Jagr, it becomes a metter of getting a centerpiece player similar to a Messier move.

The window of opportunity to contend is not quite there yet. This team has a lot of placeholders still on this team.

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07-26-2006, 05:03 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I disagree. Two years from now you'll have depth and as you pointed out a bunch of young contributers that'll form the core of a team.

At that point, life after Jagr, it becomes a metter of getting a centerpiece player similar to a Messier move.

The window of opportunity to contend is not quite there yet. This team has a lot of placeholders still on this team.
I see your point, but this is all working under the assumption that the prospects pan out as expected. If you want to draw parallels from the 91-91 team:

Richter = Lundqvist

I can certainly buy that.

Leetch = Tyutin/Staal/Sanguinetti

Somewhat questionable in my opinion. Leetch was a bonafide NHL star with 4 years of experience under his belt when Mess arrived, will one of our kids fill that role?

After that I just see a bunch of question marks. I guess I just don't have as much faith in our prospects as a whole as alot of other people around here do. I am confident that there are alot of "nice" players in the system, but I really just don't see any Gomez/Elias/Niedermayer type guys (to use the Devils as an example) that in my opinion you would need to form a legitimate core. To be honest, I don't see how it is going to be possible to not trade quite a few of them away (not that that is a bad thing) because of redundance.

Edge, who do you see as the core of the post-Jagr Rangers?

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07-26-2006, 05:44 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by free0717 View Post
Well the Penguins dont have the Capital to work out a Transfer Agreement for Malkin. They may have to wait two years and wont they lose his rights after August 15th? The Penguins may have to do something or they will lose Malkin.
No...the NHL extended the deadline for Russian players who are under contract and I see no reason why they wouldnt do it again.
If we have to wait that long for Malkin (I personally think he will be here this year) then we wait that long.
The transfer agreement is what we're waiting on. If it doesnt get signed this summer then we continue to wait. That is no reason to give up on him and certainly no reason to trade him (especially for the offers I have seen in this thread).
The Pens dont HAVE to do anything other than wait, which, for a player like Malkin, you do exactly that.

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07-26-2006, 05:54 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I disagree. Two years from now you'll have depth and as you pointed out a bunch of young contributers that'll form the core of a team.

At that point, life after Jagr, it becomes a metter of getting a centerpiece player similar to a Messier move.

The window of opportunity to contend is not quite there yet. This team has a lot of placeholders still on this team.
Edge: I predict that we will finish with less points than last year even though we may have a more solid team. I don't believe that JJ can take us to the promise land even if we sign some additional FAs. That being the case, would you trade JJ and do you think Sather has the backbone to do it. Do you think the Pens would be interested in a another run with JJ and if not, what can we get for him elsewhere?

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07-26-2006, 06:09 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeBop View Post
Edge: I predict that we will finish with less points than last year even though we may have a more solid team. I don't believe that JJ can take us to the promise land even if we sign some additional FAs. That being the case, would you trade JJ and do you think Sather has the backbone to do it. Do you think the Pens would be interested in a another run with JJ and if not, what can we get for him elsewhere?

Jagr is untradeable because of his temperment. Jagr has made it all but clear that he will be upset if he's playing anywhere other than New York. Why would any team trade a ransome in young players, picks and prospects (which is the only way the rangers would move him) if they knew they where getting back a player that was going to be only 2/3rds of what he is now (just look at the player he was when he was unhappy in washington)?

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07-26-2006, 08:08 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by synergy27 View Post
After that I just see a bunch of question marks. I guess I just don't have as much faith in our prospects as a whole as alot of other people around here do. I am confident that there are alot of "nice" players in the system, but I really just don't see any Gomez/Elias/Niedermayer type guys (to use the Devils as an example) that in my opinion you would need to form a legitimate core. To be honest, I don't see how it is going to be possible to not trade quite a few of them away (not that that is a bad thing) because of redundance.

Edge, who do you see as the core of the post-Jagr Rangers?
I don't think it's necessarily a matter of who so much as playing the odds really.

The Rangers have a lot of players and they have some question marks, but if even 5 of them make it (which wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility) than you've got a pretty good foundation.

Obviously not all the guys are going to make it but you've got pretty good odds of getting some players out of Dawes, Dubinsky, Immonen, Korpikoski, Staal, Sauer, Baranka, Montoya, Helminen, Moore, etc.

Obviously they are going to have to add pieces, but that's normal. The Rangers have a lot of interesting possibilities. Now they obviously have some question marks, but there are certainly some possibilities there.

What I think is important is getting kids to fill roles within a system. When you look at the Canes or the Devils or other team's that have won the cup in recent years, not all of them were stacked with all-stars but rather players who fit specific roles.

I think the Rangers could add the centerpiece a little later if they didn't have one.

Right now I don't think the team is right there, even with Jagr. I think he certainly brings them up a level, but they're just not to the point yet where they have the pieces in the right spot.

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07-26-2006, 08:11 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeBop View Post
Edge: I predict that we will finish with less points than last year even though we may have a more solid team. I don't believe that JJ can take us to the promise land even if we sign some additional FAs. That being the case, would you trade JJ and do you think Sather has the backbone to do it. Do you think the Pens would be interested in a another run with JJ and if not, what can we get for him elsewhere?
I dunno, this season could go either way. I do believe this is a better team than last year.

I don't think it's a Cup Team yet though.

Personally if the team is playoff bound I'd rather get the kids we have the experience, even if it is only a round or two. But that's just me and I've debated the point to death before this thread.

I just don't know what the Rangers would get for Jagr. It has nothing to do with talent so much as an unhappy Jagr just isn't worth that big of a price and if he leaves NY you're almost guranteed of getting an unhappy Jagr.

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07-27-2006, 11:26 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by xander View Post
Jagr is untradeable because of his temperment. Jagr has made it all but clear that he will be upset if he's playing anywhere other than New York. Why would any team trade a ransome in young players, picks and prospects (which is the only way the rangers would move him) if they knew they where getting back a player that was going to be only 2/3rds of what he is now (just look at the player he was when he was unhappy in washington)?
All that notwithstanding, surely JJ knows that the clock is running out. You don't think that he wants another ring and based on last year's playoff experience that NYR are a couple of years away? Is he content with winding up his career in NY with a middling team. It would seem that there's a team out there that'll want his services to get them over the top and would be willing to make him happy--don't you think?

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07-27-2006, 11:44 AM
  #91
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Now, Jagr said that he realize he has taken a lot of thing in the past for granted. In his time with the Rangers, you can see that he is more humble, appreciate what the NYR organizations offers him. And this Jagr is hungry, thats very dangerous as can be seen not only last year but in his past performance. Arguably one of the better players of all time, and one of the best players in the NHL or the best.

Look this is a player who is mentoring and taking into his wing, Petr Prucha. Taking the extra effort, extra drills with the young winger.

He is the best value(bang for the buck)in the NHL as far as salary and talent goes. As for trade value, he could definitely fetch the Rangers a lot. But I dont think he will be traded. IMO, Jagr will finish his career here in NY.

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07-27-2006, 01:11 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I dunno, this season could go either way. I do believe this is a better team than last year.

I don't think it's a Cup Team yet though.

Personally if the team is playoff bound I'd rather get the kids we have the experience, even if it is only a round or two. But that's just me and I've debated the point to death before this thread.

I just don't know what the Rangers would get for Jagr. It has nothing to do with talent so much as an unhappy Jagr just isn't worth that big of a price and if he leaves NY you're almost guranteed of getting an unhappy Jagr.
Did you think either Carolina or Edmonton were last year? I think, last year, the calibration meter was off kilter due to the lockout. I think we have a better idea about what the new NHL looks like, and I think the Rangers have taken the most steps within the division to reduce their weaknesses. As we found out in the POS, skating is very important, but, remaining physical while being a good skating team is better.

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07-27-2006, 01:24 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by CJB View Post
Now, Jagr said that he realize he has taken a lot of thing in the past for granted. In his time with the Rangers, you can see that he is more humble, appreciate what the NYR organizations offers him. And this Jagr is hungry, thats very dangerous as can be seen not only last year but in his past performance. Arguably one of the better players of all time, and one of the best players in the NHL or the best.

Look this is a player who is mentoring and taking into his wing, Petr Prucha. Taking the extra effort, extra drills with the young winger.

He is the best value(bang for the buck)in the NHL as far as salary and talent goes. As for trade value, he could definitely fetch the Rangers a lot. But I dont think he will be traded. IMO, Jagr will finish his career here in NY.
Thanx for the insight. I raised the point about trading JJ because I find it intriguing in terms of its implications to the prospects of getting the Rangers to the next level which is a work in progress. My thoughts were that it'll help speed up the process both in terms of what he could bring back in return and also that'll enhance our drafting position. But he may be more more valuable to us as a steadying force or politically it may not be the correct thing to do kind of like the way Messier affair. Would you chance trading Nylander to open up a spot for a youngster on the Jagr line?

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07-27-2006, 03:04 PM
  #94
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Quote:
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Did you think either Carolina or Edmonton were last year? I think, last year, the calibration meter was off kilter due to the lockout. I think we have a better idea about what the new NHL looks like, and I think the Rangers have taken the most steps within the division to reduce their weaknesses. As we found out in the POS, skating is very important, but, remaining physical while being a good skating team is better.
Nope, didn't think they'd do what they did either.

Still I don't think the Rangers are quite a cup team yet. I think they could be successful and stand a chance, but as of right now with their current makeup I don't think they are quite there.

A rookie or two suprised, a trade or two, maybe but who knows what happens there.

I think the Rangers have certainly reduced their weaknesses but the defense is still a little iffy for my taste and there are a lot of unknowns outside of the first line. On paper on a stat sheet they've certainly gotten better but the jury is still out on just how much offense Cullen can bring, if Immonen can make it, whether Jagr can stay healthy, etc.

If the pieces fall into place, I don't really think it's out of line that they could do something special. But with question marks and the defense, I just don't think they're quite at that level yet.

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