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LA/NYI Trade Thought (proposal of sorts)

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07-26-2006, 09:51 AM
  #1
Seph
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LA/NYI Trade Thought (proposal of sorts)

Now, before I say it, I'd like to preface this with, I know it won't happen, and I'm guessing most fans of both teams aren't going to like it. That said, I do think it's an interesting idea, and discussing the merits of it would be an interesting conversation.

to LA: Petteri Nokelainen
to NYI: Trevor Lewis

I'm not sure on the value, it seems close as both are recent first rounders and were drafted around the same spot. The age difference is exactly one year. Some may say Nokey is more valuable as he has developed well since being drafted, is more mature and has a tremendous all around game. On the other hand, others might think Lewis has more value because he is younger, may have the higher offensive ceiling, and has not had a major injury. Let's try not to dwell on value, and look at this as a starting point that can be added to as necessary to balance it out.

What intrigues me with the idea is simply, Lewis has shown tremendous chemistry with one of the Isles' top prospects, Kyle Okposo in Des Moines. On the flipside, Nokelainen and Tukonen formed an absolutely dominant line together on the Finnish U18 team. Would it be worth it to exchange these two in an attempt to re-create their past chemistry in the NHL, or would it be better to stick with the guys you've drafted and hope they develop similar chemistry with the prospects and young players each team already has.

I'm not saying I'd do it, even, at least not straight up. But I'm curious what people think about the idea.


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07-26-2006, 11:02 AM
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Nokie is damaged goods. We already pulled that trick on LA with Brent Slowpel--I doubt they go for it again!

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07-26-2006, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlatsnHeels View Post
Nokie is damaged goods. We already pulled that trick on LA with Brent Slowpel--I doubt they go for it again!
a) Nokey is expected to make a full recovery, b) Sopel and Nokelainen could not be more different, c) did you read the post that accompanied the proposal or just the proposal itself?

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07-26-2006, 11:33 AM
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Of course I read it. Just pulling your leg (I hope it was your leg!)

Anyhoo, I think it's a great idea. But I'm not sure Kings fans would agree. (And yes, I do see your speculation as to why).

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07-26-2006, 12:50 PM
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the ability to select Trevor Lewis was a large reason why the Kings made the Demitra trade in the first place.

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07-26-2006, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by wabwat View Post
the ability to select Trevor Lewis was a large reason why the Kings made the Demitra trade in the first place.
Yes, but I don't really see what that has to do with the thread. I already stated I don't think it would ever happen. I know the Kings are extremely high on Lewis, and the Isles are also extremely high on Nokelainen. And don't kid yourself, while I'm sure the opportunity to draft Lewis was in their plans, the Kings made the Demitra trade because the Wild overpaid, plain and simple.

I'm not trying to assess the likelyhood here, I'm trying to see if people think it'd be worth it.

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07-26-2006, 01:00 PM
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I love the trade requests that have disclaimers in them. "I know this won't work...but blah blah blah for blah blah blah"

How about Tambellini and Grebeshkov for Sopel and the rights to Nelson Emerson -- and a fifth round selection in the 2011 draft?

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07-26-2006, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpooKy View Post
I love the trade requests that have disclaimers in them. "I know this won't work...but blah blah blah for blah blah blah"

How about Tambellini and Grebeshkov for Sopel and the rights to Nelson Emerson -- and a fifth round selection in the 2011 draft?
Yeah, because the value of this trade idea is sooo far off.

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07-26-2006, 01:06 PM
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I don't know if I'd do it, but I agree it's interesting, and the idea of the Fins (Tukonen and Nokelainen) playing together and the Americans (Lewis and Okposo) playing together is interesting.

Just a question to counter it (again, not that I WANT to do it, but you brought up an interesting trade and so I'll bring one up, myself):

Would you rather trade Nokelainen for Lewis, or Okposo for Tukonen?

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07-26-2006, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seph View Post
Now, before I say it, I'd like to preface this with, I know it won't happen, and I'm guessing most fans of both teams aren't going to like it. That said, I do think it's an interesting idea, and discussing the merits of it would be an interesting conversation.

to LA: Petteri Nokelainen
to NYI: Trevor Lewis

I'm not sure on the value, it seems close as both are recent first rounders and were drafted around the same spot. The age difference is exactly one year. Some may say Nokey is more valuable as he has developed well since being drafted, is more mature and has a tremendous all around game. On the other hand, others might think Lewis has more value because he is younger, may have the higher offensive ceiling, and has not had a major injury. Let's try not to dwell on value, and look at this as a starting point that can be added to as necessary to balance it out.

What intrigues me with the idea is simply, Lewis has shown tremendous chemistry with one of the Isles' top prospects, Kyle Okposo in Des Moines. On the flipside, Nokelainen and Tukonen formed an absolutely dominant line together on the Finnish U18 team. Would it be worth it to exchange these two in an attempt to re-create their past chemistry in the NHL, or would it be better to stick with the guys you've drafted and hope they develop similar chemistry with the prospects and young players each team already has.

I'm not saying I'd do it, even, at least not straight up. But I'm curious what people think about the idea.
makes zero sense for LA, they just drafted Lewis

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07-26-2006, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpooKy View Post
I love the trade requests that have disclaimers in them. "I know this won't work...but blah blah blah for blah blah blah"

How about Tambellini and Grebeshkov for Sopel and the rights to Nelson Emerson -- and a fifth round selection in the 2011 draft?
Do you really love them? Cuz they are alot more interesting to read than this kind of lame response. Notice that no one on this board is an NHL GM and that this IS the place for speculation and discussion of trades.

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07-26-2006, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
I don't know if I'd do it, but I agree it's interesting, and the idea of the Fins (Tukonen and Nokelainen) playing together and the Americans (Lewis and Okposo) playing together is interesting.

Just a question to counter it (again, not that I WANT to do it, but you brought up an interesting trade and so I'll bring one up, myself):

Would you rather trade Nokelainen for Lewis, or Okposo for Tukonen?
A good question you bring up yourself.

Personally, I'd rather have Lewis and Okposo, but I am biased, since I grew up in Des Moines watching the Buccaneers, I'd particularly love to have two former Bucs on my team (or heck, maybe even three if Sims pans out).

Purely from an organizational standpoint, I'd probably prefer Okposo and Lewis, simply because the Isles have more LW prospects that project into the top 6 than RW, even with Okposo.

I do think if the two teams were trying to go for the pure chemistry and line recreation aspect of the trade, the Kings might slightly prefer having Tukonen and Nokelainen, as the Kings have a chance of possibly trading for Korpikoski, whereas there's no chance the Rangers would trade him to us. But, if the Kings could acquire Korpikoski somehow, I'd have to give serious thought to something like Okposo and Tambellini for Tukonen and Korpikoski. But I suppose that is neither here nor there, since the Rangers are unlikely to trade Korpikoski anytime soon anyway.

But honestly, I have a difficult time deciding which would be the better 2/3 of a line. On one hand, I think Okposo and Lewis could prove to be more dynamic; but Tukonen and Nokelainen would be such a brilliant 2way line. Not to mention, Tukonen and Nokelainen are both a lot more seasoned, having been playing pro hockey for a while, whereas Lewis and Okposo have never played above the USHL level.

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07-26-2006, 02:09 PM
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Good response, Seph. I am not a proponent of trading either prospect, simply because I'm happy with what we have (and I'm sure you're happy with it, as well; it's just a shame people are overlooking the fact you're just trying to provoke discussion).

Between the pairs, I'd probably prefer Tukonen/Nokelainen. They have competed at a higher level, and I think we're closer to competing for the cup, so the small difference in potential would be worth the trade-off.

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07-26-2006, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
Good response, Seph. I am not a proponent of trading either prospect, simply because I'm happy with what we have (and I'm sure you're happy with it, as well; it's just a shame people are overlooking the fact you're just trying to provoke discussion).

Between the pairs, I'd probably prefer Tukonen/Nokelainen. They have competed at a higher level, and I think we're closer to competing for the cup, so the small difference in potential would be worth the trade-off.
Yep, figured the Kings felt that way, and I feel the same way about trading Nokey. And I tried as hard as I could to acknowledge that before I started the thread and make it clear that this wasn't a proposal, just an interesting thought. I'm glad at least one person understood the point of the thread.

But I agree, the added experience would be especially valuable for a team that's closer like the Kings. I can't help but wonder what the Kings could then put together to try to get Korpikoski (though, I suppose if the Isles had Tukonen and Nokelainen, they could try to approximate the line with Bergenheim in Koropikoski's spot). The Isles are in more of a rebuilding mode than the Kings so it would probably benefit the Isles a bit more to have the younger duo with the slightly higher offensive upside, especially since we don't have a center that projects similarly to Lewis, while we have O'Marra and Colliton who have similar projections to Nokelainen (especially O'Marra, though Colliton is developing very nicely). The Kings on the other hand already seem to have some good options for offensive centers (Kopitar, Boyle if he pans out), but don't seem to have a guy that can be a dominant shutdown guy while still scoring.

So, if reuniting the Finns and Bucs was a priority, I agree Bucs to the Isles and Finns to the Kings would make the most sense.

But there's also the question of, would the two pairs' chemistry translate to the NHL? Obviously there are cases where chemistry in the lower levels translates to the higher levels (Sedins, being an obvious example), but how often does this happen? Would it be worth moving a recent pick you are happy with to try to find out?

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07-26-2006, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Seph View Post
But there's also the question of, would the two pairs' chemistry translate to the NHL? Obviously there are cases where chemistry in the lower levels translates to the higher levels (Sedins, being an obvious example), but how often does this happen? Would it be worth moving a recent pick you are happy with to try to find out?
It wouldn't be worth it, in my opinion, which is another reason why I wouldn't make the trade. I haven't sat down to draw it out myself, but I don't imagine it happens very often. Even when it does happen, I'm presuming it is when they develop at the same time in similar systems. Tukonen and Nokelainen played on the same Finnish national teams, but they have developed on different teams and different systems.

It would also go in the Islanders' advantage to have Lewis and Okposo, since they were linemates for at least an entire season.

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07-26-2006, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
It wouldn't be worth it, in my opinion, which is another reason why I wouldn't make the trade. I haven't sat down to draw it out myself, but I don't imagine it happens very often. Even when it does happen, I'm presuming it is when they develop at the same time in similar systems. Tukonen and Nokelainen played on the same Finnish national teams, but they have developed on different teams and different systems.

It would also go in the Islanders' advantage to have Lewis and Okposo, since they were linemates for at least an entire season.
Fair point about the Finns. Though at the same time, there is something to be said about instant chemistry, sometimes you just see it right away. Like what Crosby and Bergeron showed in the WJCs, then continued in the WC. It will be interested to see if the Finnish National team tries to keep these three together, especially with Nokelainen and Korpikoski playing for hated rivals.

Anyway, I think you're probably right that it wouldn't be worth it, especially since both teams seem very content with who they picked up. But I always enjoy discussing these sorts of things with informed, objective posters and have found you to be exactly that.

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07-26-2006, 04:57 PM
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Decent proposal. But I think I'd rather have Okposo and Lewis.

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07-26-2006, 05:00 PM
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Decent proposal. But I think I'd rather have Okposo and Lewis.
That'd be interesting too. I love the idea of having a Bergenheim-Nokelainen-Tukonen line. I'm sure the Finnish national team would appreciate it too.

However, call me a homer if you wish, but I sorta feel like Okposo's value is higher than Tukonen's and that LA would have to add something, nothing major mind you, but something.

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07-26-2006, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seph View Post
That'd be interesting too. I love the idea of having a Bergenheim-Nokelainen-Tukonen line. I'm sure the Finnish national team would appreciate it too.

However, call me a homer if you wish, but I sorta feel like Okposo's value is higher than Tukonen's and that LA would have to add something, nothing major mind you, but something.
And I feel that Lewis has a higher value and that NYI would have to add something if it was the original deal.

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07-26-2006, 07:13 PM
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Can we somehow work Tambellini into this trade? I'd like to have him back please.

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07-26-2006, 07:53 PM
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However, call me a homer if you wish, but I sorta feel like Okposo's value is higher than Tukonen's and that LA would have to add something, nothing major mind you, but something.
First of all, thanks for the props in the earlier post. Always nice to be able to talk hockey with knowledgable fans, whether or not they are fans of the Kings

Second of all, I see the arguments made on both sides... so I guess you can say I consider the two of them equal in value.

Tukonen had a shoulder injury that, maybe it's just me, but it scares the bejeezus out of me. He also had a somewhat underwhelming campaign both when he was in Finland and I was slightly disappointed with his numbers in Manchester. Maybe I was expecting too much, but he didn't earn a lot of ice time in Finland, and he had good, but not spectacular, numbers in his first year of NA hockey. Again, maybe I'm expecting too much, but it was less than what I expected from a supposed consensus top 5 pick in 2004.

But on the other hand... he has always competed with better players even starting at the age of 15. He always held his own and has shown physical and mental maturity. He did well in the U-20, tying Malkin for 2nd in scoring.

Okposo is younger and thus, by HFLogic, has more potential. He put up more points and, if I remember correctly, got rookie of the year. The detraction, though, is that he played in the USHL. Unfortunately, because he was just drafted, we can't really document his progress to bring in a fair comparison.

Both are gambles in their own way. It depends what sort of gamble you want to take.

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07-26-2006, 08:56 PM
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Seph, a very interesting idea you've proposed. I think the two I'd choose would be Lewis-Okposo, because I think Okposo will be a stud. I like Nokie a lot, but I don't think he'll have the same impact as Okposo will.

On another note, I think our Finnish line could be set with Bergenheim on the left, Nokie up the middle, and Joenssu on the right. From what I've read on Joenssu, he could turn out to be an impact player in the NHL, and we wouldn't be asking much from him by putting him on that line, which would probably be the 3rd line if everything goes to plan. Also, that line of Tambellini-Colliton-Okposo was money at the prospect-skate from everything I read in that thread on the Isles board. If all 3 of those guys reach their potential, and that chemistry sticks... there's your first line right there, my friend.

**--sorry for taking this off-topic.

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07-26-2006, 11:51 PM
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And I feel that Lewis has a higher value and that NYI would have to add something if it was the original deal.
Fair enough, but I feel the difference between Okposo and Tukonen is greater than the difference between Nokelainen and Lewis. For one, as Reaper points out, Tukonen has not progressed as much as Nokelainen has since the draft. I don't know if you're aware just how good Nokelainen's numbers in the FNL were for his age, but for comparison, Tuomo Ruutu at the same age put up 7g and 16a in 51games, Nokelainen had over twice as many goals (15) and only 3 fewer points in one more game. Highly comparable numbers. If it weren't for Nokey's knee injury creating a slight risk (all reports are that he will make a full recovery and it shouldn't be recurring), I wouldn't trade Nokelainen for Lewis straight up. Tukonen's had a similar injury, some might say more likely to be recurring, and hasn't progressed as well as Nokey. And of course, Okposo's value is higher than Lewis' for obvious reasons.

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07-27-2006, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
First of all, thanks for the props in the earlier post. Always nice to be able to talk hockey with knowledgable fans, whether or not they are fans of the Kings

Second of all, I see the arguments made on both sides... so I guess you can say I consider the two of them equal in value.

Tukonen had a shoulder injury that, maybe it's just me, but it scares the bejeezus out of me. He also had a somewhat underwhelming campaign both when he was in Finland and I was slightly disappointed with his numbers in Manchester. Maybe I was expecting too much, but he didn't earn a lot of ice time in Finland, and he had good, but not spectacular, numbers in his first year of NA hockey. Again, maybe I'm expecting too much, but it was less than what I expected from a supposed consensus top 5 pick in 2004.

But on the other hand... he has always competed with better players even starting at the age of 15. He always held his own and has shown physical and mental maturity. He did well in the U-20, tying Malkin for 2nd in scoring.

Okposo is younger and thus, by HFLogic, has more potential. He put up more points and, if I remember correctly, got rookie of the year. The detraction, though, is that he played in the USHL. Unfortunately, because he was just drafted, we can't really document his progress to bring in a fair comparison.

Both are gambles in their own way. It depends what sort of gamble you want to take.
I feel likewise, even if you aren't an Isles fan.

As for Okposo vs. Tukonen, I do still see Tukonen as a very good prospect. He may not ever be the 1st line PF he was originally projected as, but at the same maybe teams already knew that and that's why he fell in his draft year. But he has a good 2way game, and the scoring seems like it's starting to come around.

Okposo on the other hand, yes, he's younger, and while that doesn't automatically make him better in my mind, but it does give him more time to make good on his upside than Tukonen. He has more doubts as far as making the NHL, but IMO, fewer doubts for becoming a top line scorer. Though that could arguably be simply because he hasn't had a chance to disappoint. But I guess I just see Okposo's value as higher because I still see him having first line upside, while I think Tukonen looks like he will top out as a 2nd liner. A stud second liner, but a second liner nonetheless. I could be wrong there though, I'm no expert.

But as you point out, yes, both are gambles. Most of what I'm going on here honestly, is that scouts just seem higher on Okposo than they did on Tukonen, and Tukonen hasn't exactly lit it up since his draft year.That's hardly a definitive reasoning, I admit, but it's about as good as I have to go on, having only limited viewings of either and their different experience levels make them difficult to compare directly.

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07-27-2006, 02:30 AM
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I don't think Tukonen has had that bad of a time transitioning over to NA from Finland. From all that I've gathered, i.e. heard from Finnish posters, Tukonen was a 3rd line/4th line guy in Finland hence the weak numbers. But Nokelainen was playing on a weaker team where he was able to play more minutes and the like whereas Tukonen was playing on a team with more depth so he didn't get as good an opportunity. He was playing in the AHL as a 18-19? year old, and still managed to put up 14g, 22a, 36pts in 62 games. If it wasn't for his shoulder injury he'd probably have had a cup of coffee with the Kings.

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