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Was Marleau a disappointment?

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Old
07-27-2006, 10:40 PM
  #26
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Patrick Marleau is not a disapointment at all, i don't think we should be discussing this. He should have been picked before Thornton in the 97 (?) draft and it was right but Marleau is a amazing player and the fact you have him for a second line center is amazing!

He is ALWAYS healthy, he has never played a season where he played less then 70 games and the last 3 seasons he played 80 games or more. He is a very consistent goal scorer, Marleau has scored 20+ goals five seasons in a row now including a 34 goal season last season. He doesn't take alot of penalties either and he definetly shows up in the playoffs the last 3 times he has been there along with the Sharks.

He has great speed which is great for 5 on 5 for a team and he is a very productive on the powerplay. Marleau is a good captain and a good player and is not a disapointment IMO. Though i have to admit, you should have used that second pick for Luongo who was picked fourth by the Isles.

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07-27-2006, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mogilnykicksass View Post
Though i have to admit, you should have used that second pick for Luongo who was picked fourth by the Isles.
I don't think the sharks have ever picked a goalie before the fifth round, except one bust in the third round many years ago by the name of Terry Friesen. That being said, I still think drafting Nabokov, Toskala, and Kipprusoff out of the doldrums is still pretty decent

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07-27-2006, 11:08 PM
  #28
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OMG I just saw the Marleau Trade Proposal thread. I wrote one phrase last night to start it, and just came back to it now and it was like some sort of ever-growing three-heads Hydra of evil.

Let`s make sure this one don`t go in that same direction.

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07-27-2006, 11:08 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogilnykicksass View Post
Patrick Marleau is not a disapointment at all, i don't think we should be discussing this. He should have been picked before Thornton in the 97 (?) draft and it was right but Marleau is a amazing player and the fact you have him for a second line center is amazing!
This whole post doesn't make any sense. You say he should have been taken before Thornton in that draft, yet you say Marleau is the 2nd line center on that team. Do you even realize who the 1st line center is?

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07-27-2006, 11:26 PM
  #30
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No. He has been a productive player his whole career and is still on the team. How can that be a disappointment? Who cares where you drafted him. He is a very good player and has been pretty much his whole career.

Consistently getting 25 goals and 50 points and being a 2-way player in the dead-puck era is nothing to sneeze at. Plus he produces in the playoffs every year at a good clip.

Is he a superstar? No. Will he ever be a superstar? Probably not but he probably will play another 10-12 seasons as a top 6 forward.

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07-27-2006, 11:27 PM
  #31
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Want a disappointing 2nd overall pick and "goal scorer"? Pat Falloon.

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07-28-2006, 12:19 AM
  #32
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Of course he's a disapointment. Let's drop the sentimentality here and look at the facts. You expect a #2 overall draft pick to be a franchise player who can have an impact within 5 years. Marleau was certainly expected to do this. Compared to other #2 draft picks, up to this point in his career, he is very disapointing.

2003: Eric Staal
2002: Kari Lehtonen
2001: Jason Spezza
2000: Dany Heatley
1999: Daniel Sedin
1998: David Legwand
1997: Patrick Marleau
1996: Andrei Zyuzin
1995: Wade Redden
1994: Tverdovsky
1993: Chris Pronger
1992: Alexei Yashin
1991: Pat Faloon

The only players more disapointing than Marleau are those other Sharks stalwarts, Faloon and Zyuzin.

And I don't wanna hear no crap about how he started in the NHL when he was 14, or that it's all the coach's fault, or that he's a great 2nd liner, or that you can't judge a player just by points. Marleau's impact until this point has been clearly inferior to that of most other #2 draft picks.

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07-28-2006, 12:56 AM
  #33
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Until the 05/06 season....


Character-wise: No
Points-wise: Yes

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07-28-2006, 01:08 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Of course he's a disapointment. Let's drop the sentimentality here and look at the facts. You expect a #2 overall draft pick to be a franchise player who can have an impact within 5 years. Marleau was certainly expected to do this. Compared to other #2 draft picks, up to this point in his career, he is very disapointing.

2003: Eric Staal
2002: Kari Lehtonen
2001: Jason Spezza
2000: Dany Heatley
1999: Daniel Sedin
1998: David Legwand
1997: Patrick Marleau
1996: Andrei Zyuzin
1995: Wade Redden
1994: Tverdovsky
1993: Chris Pronger
1992: Alexei Yashin
1991: Pat Faloon

The only players more disapointing than Marleau are those other Sharks stalwarts, Faloon and Zyuzin.

And I don't wanna hear no crap about how he started in the NHL when he was 14, or that it's all the coach's fault, or that he's a great 2nd liner, or that you can't judge a player just by points. Marleau's impact until this point has been clearly inferior to that of most other #2 draft picks.
Huh? Do you really consider, Yashin, Tverdovsky and Legwand better than Marleau? Because I'd easily take Marleau ahead of any of those guys. I do really like Legwand though, so that's not meant as a slight against him.

I also think Marleau is better now than Sedin and Lehtonen (though, obviously they are younger and still have more time to catch up, especially in Kari's case).

That leaves only Staal, Spezza, Heatley, Redden and Pronger as decidedly better picks. Putting Marleau at around 6-8 of 13, exactly in the middle.

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07-28-2006, 01:17 AM
  #35
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This is a tough one seeing as Patty is my favorite player (although it has nothing to do with his NHL career). I wouldn't call his NHL career a disappointment. His numbers have steadily increased every year (maybe not to the level that was expected coming out of junior) but still improving and has had 3 solid playoff outings, including a trip to the conference finals in '04. He still has to be a little more consistent (especially physically)

How you can say he hasn't lived up to the other second picks? Legwand has yet to crack 50 points.

If he had been born a day later and been the 1st pick of the 98 draft and put up similar numbers, then sure throw out the "disappointing" label for a #1 overall.

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07-28-2006, 01:18 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Seph View Post
Huh? Do you really consider, Yashin, Tverdovsky and Legwand better than Marleau? Because I'd easily take Marleau ahead of any of those guys. I do really like Legwand though, so that's not meant as a slight against him.

I also think Marleau is better now than Sedin and Lehtonen (though, obviously they are younger and still have more time to catch up, especially in Kari's case).

That leaves only Staal, Spezza, Heatley, Redden and Pronger as decidedly better picks. Putting Marleau at around 6-8 of 13, exactly in the middle.
Yes, I'll take Yashin and Sedin over Marleau. It's more a question of personal choice for those two. Legwand and Tverdovsky are as disapointing as Marleau. Legwand and Marleau are both very good players that I would love to have on my team. But they were expected to become franchise superstars. Thus, they are disapointments.

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07-28-2006, 01:21 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Yes, I'll take Yashin and Sedin over Marleau. Legwand and Tverdovsky are as disapointing as Marleau. Legwand and Marleau are both very good players that I would love to have on my team. But they were expected to become franchise superstars. Thus, they are disapointments.
How do you even compare Legwand and Tverdovsky to Marleau? I can understand this comparison before this past season, but Marleau is coming of an 86 pt season, far greater than anything Legwand has put up. Sedin over Marleau? The only reason you could make a case for this is because, as I said earlier, Marleau took a rather long time, till the age of 26, to breakout. Lehtonen? How about he plays 40 games at the NHL level before we flaunt him as a better pick than Marleau?

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07-28-2006, 01:29 AM
  #38
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The Jokinen comparison was excellent...

Some players (even high drafted players) take some time to come into their own... And while some have really bad growing pains (Jokinen) Marleau managed to grow while still being a solid two-way-player who accounted for more than 20 goals in 6 of his 8 seasons...

And to say he will never be a superstar? I don´t know which players are considered as superstars, but with his recent PO-performances and him still trending up I think he has a good shot...

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07-28-2006, 01:34 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Of course he's a disapointment. Let's drop the sentimentality here and look at the facts. You expect a #2 overall draft pick to be a franchise player who can have an impact within 5 years. Marleau was certainly expected to do this. Compared to other #2 draft picks, up to this point in his career, he is very disapointing.

2003: Eric Staal
2002: Kari Lehtonen
2001: Jason Spezza
2000: Dany Heatley
1999: Daniel Sedin
1998: David Legwand
1997: Patrick Marleau
1996: Andrei Zyuzin
1995: Wade Redden
1994: Tverdovsky
1993: Chris Pronger
1992: Alexei Yashin
1991: Pat Faloon

The only players more disapointing than Marleau are those other Sharks stalwarts, Faloon and Zyuzin.

And I don't wanna hear no crap about how he started in the NHL when he was 14, or that it's all the coach's fault, or that he's a great 2nd liner, or that you can't judge a player just by points. Marleau's impact until this point has been clearly inferior to that of most other #2 draft picks.
So Legwand and Teverdovsky are WAYYYY better than Marleau? And it depends on the Draft. 1996 was a very, very weak draft. Phillips was the first overall pick and the only guy in the first round I'd take over him is Briere at 26th. The draft stunk so Zyzuin while not too great a player wasn't that horrible of a pick being that he is still in the NHL 10 years later.

That is a pretty shortsighted attitude. You draft a player, it doesn't matter when you drafted him it matters what he does in the NHL. Bergeron was a 2nd rounder so what, Alfredsson was picked in the 6th round. Who cares. Richards is better than LeCavalier who was his junior linemate but was drafed in a later round. Does that make LeCavalier a bad pick or Richards a good one?

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07-28-2006, 01:36 AM
  #40
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How do you even compare Legwand and Tverdovsky to Marleau? I can understand this comparison before this past season, but Marleau is coming of an 86 pt season, far greater than anything Legwand has put up. Sedin over Marleau? The only reason you could make a case for this is because, as I said earlier, Marleau took a rather long time, till the age of 26, to breakout. Lehtonen? How about he plays 40 games at the NHL level before we flaunt him as a better pick than Marleau?
Tverdovsky was useful early on. As I said, Sedin is a question of opinion. He is not a clearly inferior player to Marleau. At Sedin's age, Marleau was putting up 40 point seasons. Didn't say I would take Lehtonen over Marleau. Legwand and Marleau are both disapointments. They were expected to become franchise centremen, and both have failed to do so til this point. That's the main point. Unfortunately, it seems as though touchy Sharks fans prefer to bicker about whether Kari Lehtonen is better.

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07-28-2006, 01:41 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Cup 2007 Sens Rule! View Post
So Legwand and Teverdovsky are WAYYYY better than Marleau? And it depends on the Draft. 1996 was a very, very weak draft. Phillips was the first overall pick and the only guy in the first round I'd take over him is Briere at 26th. The draft stunk so Zyzuin while not too great a player wasn't that horrible of a pick being that he is still in the NHL 10 years later.

That is a pretty shortsighted attitude. You draft a player, it doesn't matter when you drafted him it matters what he does in the NHL. Bergeron was a 2nd rounder so what, Alfredsson was picked in the 6th round. Who cares. Richards is better than LeCavalier who was his junior linemate but was drafed in a later round. Does that make LeCavalier a bad pick or Richards a good one?
Of course it matters when he was drafted. It reflects the expectations of a player's potential. Marleau clearly did not reach his expectations, so he's a disapointment.

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07-28-2006, 01:44 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Tverdovsky was useful early on. As I said, Sedin is a question of opinion. He is not a clearly inferior player to Marleau. At Sedin's age, Marleau was putting up 40 point seasons. Didn't say I would take Lehtonen over Marleau. Legwand and Marleau are both disapointments. They were expected to become franchise centremen, and both have failed to do so til this point. That's the main point. Unfortunately, it seems as though touchy Sharks fans prefer to bicker about whether Kari Lehtonen is better.
You are right about the fact that both were expected to become franchise centers, and they did not. You said, however, that the only two players more dissapointing than Marleau were Zyuzin and Faloon. While Marleau may never be a "franchise" center (100+ points), he's only 26 and is coming off an 86 pt season. He brings other intangibles that players like Dany Heatley don't bring, including leadership. I wouldn't consider Marleau a dissapointment other than the fact that it took him till age 26 to break out. Do we know if Marleau will reach his franchise potential? Probably not. But it might be a little to early at the ripe old age of 26 to label Marleau a dissapointment, and to say that he will never reach his franchise center potential.

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07-28-2006, 01:46 AM
  #43
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Let´s take a look at those Nr.2 picks mentioned, I will only compare Marleau with other forwards...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
2003: Eric Staal > Marleau

2001: Jason Spezza - He didn´t play NHL right away, he played 3 more seasons without cracking the NHL-lineup full-time (I admit it´s hard to crack the Sens lineup with all that firepower). In season 4 after his draft, he established himself and did produce 55 points in 78 games on a strong offensive Sens team, being 4th in team-scoring.

Let´s look at Marleau: In his 4th season after beeing drafted (which was already his 4th in the NHL as he cracked the league right away) he produced 52 points in 81 games on a mediocre Sharks-squad and was the teams 2nd-leading-scorer

Spezza went back to the AHL during the lockout (season 5 after beeing drafted). In season 6 (last year) he produced eye-popping-numbers!!!

Marleau didn´t produce that well in his 6th season after being drafted, scoring 57 points (same as in season 7) but did manage to put up over a point per game last year (season 8) while playing with two rookies most of the year....

I am not saying Marleau is better or as good as Spezza. But while a guy like Spezza took his time to round out his game in juniors and the AHL, MArleau already had a job with the Sharks and produced night in and night out...

2000: Dany Heatley > Marleau

1999: Daniel Sedin

1998: David Legwand < Marleau

1992: Alexei Yashin < Marleau

1991: Pat Faloon < Marleau

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07-28-2006, 01:48 AM
  #44
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When Yashin wanted to play he was a better offensive player that Marleau. I can't argue that. He had a couple great seasons, got his large contract, then decided he was done trying.

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07-28-2006, 01:50 AM
  #45
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You are right about the fact that both were expected to become franchise centers, and they did not. You said, however, that the only two players more dissapointing than Marleau were Zyuzin and Faloon. While Marleau may never be a "franchise" center (100+ points), he's only 26 and is coming off an 86 pt season. He brings other intangibles that players like Dany Heatley don't bring, including leadership. I wouldn't consider Marleau a dissapointment other than the fact that it took him till age 26 to break out. Do we know if Marleau will reach his franchise potential? Probably not. But it might be a little to early at the ripe old age of 26 to label Marleau a dissapointment, and to say that he will never reach his franchise center potential.
I said Zyuzin and Faloon because they are the two who are clearly more disapointing, but also for effect, to underline the point that the Sharks have had bad luck with their top picks (including #3 in 1998, Brad Stuart, who was picked right after Legwand), yet have still managed to ice good teams over the years. I think Marleau is on the verge of reaching the top guys. He and Thornton will probably be the best 1-2 centres in the league for the next few years. But has he been a disapointment up to now in his career? Definitely.

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07-28-2006, 01:53 AM
  #46
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I said Zyuzin and Faloon because they are the two who are clearly more disapointing, but also for effect, to underline the point that the Sharks have had bad luck with their top picks (including #3 in 1998, Brad Stuart, who was picked right after Legwand), yet have still managed to ice good teams over the years. I think Marleau is on the verge of reaching the top guys. He and Thornton will probably be the best 1-2 centres in the league for the next few years. But has he been a disapointment up to now in his career? Definitely.
I'm not going to argue with that. He has been the brunt of fan frustration in years past, especially when the Sharks needed secondary scoring in the days of Nolan and Selanne. It has taken a while for him to breakout, and that's why I posted earlier that he could be labeled a minor dissapointment, at this moment.

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07-28-2006, 01:55 AM
  #47
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When Yashin wanted to play he was a better offensive player that Marleau. I can't argue that. He had a couple great seasons, got his large contract, then decided he was done trying.
Yashin had 7 great seasons in Ottawa. He was a runner up for the Hart trophy. He has had a far better career than Marleau has.

He isn't as good as Marleau now but he was better than Marleau was this past season for 7 years (would be in a row if not for the lock-out) in Ottawa.

He was drafted in 1992 and is 5 years older than Marleau.

And I am not a Yashin fan by any means but Yashin was the very best player in his draft year and had a very good career despite his stupid contract and disappointing time in New York.

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07-28-2006, 01:57 AM
  #48
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Let´s take a look at those Nr.2 picks mentioned, I will only compare Marleau with other forwards...
You can't credit Marleau for making the NHL before Spezza, and then attribute Spezza's points to being on a strong offensive team, as you put it. The one has to do with the other. Marleau made crap teams as a teenager. The Sens had the luxury of keeping Spezza in the minors to make him improve his skating and defence.

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07-28-2006, 01:59 AM
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You can't credit Marleau for making the NHL before Spezza, and then attribute Spezza's points to being on a strong offensive team, as you put it. The one has to do with the other. Marleau made crap teams as a teenager. The Sens had the luxury of keeping Spezza in the minors to make him improve his skating and defence.
Marleau was rushed because the Sharks wanted a playmaking center. It's not as if, though, that he was called up because the team was terrible. He's only missed the playoffs once in his career (2003). I definitely would have let him play in the minors, in hindsight, though.

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07-28-2006, 02:06 AM
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Marleau was rushed because the Sharks wanted a playmaking center. It's not as if, though, that he was called up because the team was terrible. He's only missed the playoffs once in his career (2003). I definitely would have let him play in the minors, in hindsight, though.
I know, but you can't give credit to one player for making the NHL at a young age and criticise another for not, and then credit his teammates for his production when he does make it. The Senators had the luxury to develop him in the minors. It was not Spezza's choice.

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