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"Rangers Should Pursue Lecavalier"

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Old
07-28-2006, 07:46 AM
  #51
DutchShamrock
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Originally Posted by Lundqvist102 View Post
The original deal i'd do in a heartbeat. I'd also say that i'd be willing to give up Lundqvist for Vincent. Hey i love lundqvist as much as the rest of you, but if it takes him to get a 1st line center that has the potential to be among hte best centers in the league i think you gotta do it. Im sorry but there is an abundance of 1A level goalies in the league and one of them and Weekes could probably get us into the playoffs this season, and next year we gotta hope that Montoya is ready. I think if straight up lundqvist for vinny i'd do it, although we would also be taking a cap hit, i'm not sure if we have the money to do it but i personally think in terms of what this team needs you'd have to pull the trigger on it.
Ok so we give up a potentially great goaltender for Lecavilier. Then we kill ourselves trying to get a replacement by unloading a bunch of prospects. Or hey, we can put ourselves in cap hell by overpaying for a UFA goalie. Or we can cross our fingers and hope Montoya pans out. People talk about Dubinsky, Tyutin and Prucha being nearly untradable, which is a farce, but as of right now I would say Lundqvist is the only guy that gets that tag. I say it because of our lack of goalie depth and because Montoya has not proven himself. If you have a guy that you know can play the most important position, you build around him, not use him as a centerpiece of a deal.

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07-28-2006, 07:53 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by in the hall View Post
how is lecavalier a elite center?
Does it really matter if he is "elite" or not? That word is getting thrown around too much around here. Frankly, I could care less if he (or anyone like him) is elite or not. The sole question (and criteria) that I have is whether or not he is a legit top line player (or even rarer, a legit top-line center)? I believe that the answer is a resounding yes.

Elite or not elite, makes no difference. He IS a legit top line center. When was the last time that the Rangers had one of those? In answering that question, the answer of just how rare those players are should be answered, elite or not.

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07-28-2006, 10:56 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by JOrtmeyer41 View Post
id think theyd want immonen instead of nylander. maybe include pock. id like sarich. he is a solid dman.
We are getting rid of Rozsival to make room for Staal or Pock, maybe even Leetch. Were not getting rid of him so we could add Sarich who we dont need. We need an offensive defenseman and Leetch would be the guy once we got rid of Rozsival.

I like Nylander but I'm pretty sure I could part with him for the likes of Lecavliar. Also I think you have to include him to even out the salaries enough so that we're still under the cap.

Also I'd rather see Brad Richards coming this way. And I'd only put Immonen in instead of Nylander if we were getting Richards.

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07-28-2006, 11:05 AM
  #54
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No to Lecavalier

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07-28-2006, 11:57 AM
  #55
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I cannot believe that there is such vehemence against Vinny. Without going into drawn-out details about a mythical trade that will never happen, he is a legit top line center. Can anyone name the last one that skated for the Rangers? Whether or not you want to lump him into the "elite" class (and really, how many of those players are around?), you cannot deny that he is a legit top-line player. They do not grow on trees.

That is just one of the many reasons that this trade is not happening. No team is going to throw away a legit top line center for nothing. If you want to trade for such a player, you have to be prepared to deal more than just b-level prospects and some longshots.

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07-28-2006, 12:05 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
Ok so we give up a potentially great goaltender for Lecavilier. Then we kill ourselves trying to get a replacement by unloading a bunch of prospects. Or hey, we can put ourselves in cap hell by overpaying for a UFA goalie. Or we can cross our fingers and hope Montoya pans out. People talk about Dubinsky, Tyutin and Prucha being nearly untradable, which is a farce, but as of right now I would say Lundqvist is the only guy that gets that tag. I say it because of our lack of goalie depth and because Montoya has not proven himself. If you have a guy that you know can play the most important position, you build around him, not use him as a centerpiece of a deal.
They key word is a "potentially" great goaltender. We have a goalie thats been successful as a Ranger for less than a full season, and we're tabbing him as untouchable? I mean look at my name, obviously im a big fan but we're trading a "potentially great but also potential fluke" goaltender for someone that is one of the top centers in the league, as much as you'd like to dispute that. With vinny we have a top center for Jagr, and we have a that much more solid system. As much as i hate to say it, Lundqvist is worth getting Vinny.

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07-28-2006, 12:09 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Lundqvist102 View Post
They key word is a "potentially" great goaltender. We have a goalie thats been successful as a Ranger for less than a full season, and we're tabbing him as untouchable? I mean look at my name, obviously im a big fan but we're trading a "potentially great but also potential fluke" goaltender for someone that is one of the top centers in the league, as much as you'd like to dispute that. With vinny we have a top center for Jagr, and we have a that much more solid system. As much as i hate to say it, Lundqvist is worth getting Vinny.
Lundqvist has been VERY successful in pro hockey over the past 4 years, its not just a one year wonder. Your probably the only person here that would trade Lundqvist for Vinny straight up. Just a terrible trade. Vinny is no Malkin, Crosby or even E. Staal by any means

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07-28-2006, 12:13 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
Lundqvist has been VERY successful in pro hockey over the past 4 years, it not just a one year wonder. Your probably the only person here that would trade Lundqvist for Vinny straight up. Just a terrible trade. Vinny is no Malkin, Crosby or even E. Staal by any means
And Malkin Crosby and E. Staal wouldnt be traded for Lundqvist. Maybe i am in the vast minority, but I dont think its an absolutely terrible trade. I think if Sather was offered this trade then he'd have to take a long hard look at it.

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07-28-2006, 12:38 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by in the hall View Post
how is lecavalier a elite center?
As I stated before, I'll leave it to others to worry about labels.

You may want an "elite" center. I never used that term, as it's pretty arbitrary and superfluous, IMO.

Personally, I'd be happy with a guy who garnered firstline minutes at center for a recent Cup winning team, a guy just entering his prime years. (To be sure, there are other very real considerations, as noted by others, like salary, whether it's premature to consider moving Montoya, etc. which would have to be considered in any hypothetical.)

I simply have a different criteria than others, as evidenced by this thread. Not saying it is right or wrong. When I read PPG as a reason for not wanting Vinny, I have to ask myself if I'm on the NYR board or the fantasy board.

Personally, I judge a player in the context of if/how his personal production effects his team's performance...nightly, annually and especially come the post-season. That is, the big point getter on a bottom feeder means little to me.

I'm biased toward core guys who produce AND win....even if they do not help light up the fantasy stat sheet.

Just my opinion.


Last edited by Trottier: 07-28-2006 at 12:44 PM.
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07-28-2006, 12:46 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
As I stated before, I'll leave it to others to worry about labels.

You may want an "elite" center. I never used that term, as it's pretty arbitrary and superfluous, IMO.

Personally, I'd be happy with a guy who garnered firstline minutes at center for a recent Cup winning team, a guy just entering his prime years.

I simply have a different criteria than others, as evidenced by this thread. Not saying it is right or wrong. When I read PPG as a reason for not wanting Vinny, I have to ask myself if I'm on the NYR board or the fantasy board.

Personally, I judge a player in the context of if/how his personal production effects his team's performance...nightly, annually and especially come the post-season. That is, the big point getter on a bottom feeder means little to me.

I'm biased toward core guys who produce AND win....even if they do not help light up the fantasy stat sheet.

Just my opinion.
I think that Vinny manages to be both overrated and underrated in this discussion (if that makes any sense) Vinny is overrated when it comes to his hype (the Bolts owner compared Vinny to Michael Jordan when he was drafted). But if you look his numbers, (30-30 last three seasons, 30-40 for two out of three of those) and he's still only 26.

So while he's not like MJ (an asinine comparison because the games are so different), he's still a productive player who still has the ability to get even better.

IMO, he's not one of the top 10 players in the league (not top 15 for me either) but he's still a very good player and is better than any center this team has had for a while.

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07-28-2006, 12:55 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Personally, I'd be happy with a guy who garnered firstline minutes at center for a recent Cup winning team, a guy just entering his prime years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
he's not one of the top 10 players in the league (not top 15 for me either) but he's still a very good player and is better than any center this team has had for a while.
Guys, I think that both of you hit the nail on the head. Ok, the Vinny detractors got me. He is not elite. Frankly, so what? Who is? And before you start to name them, think of just how many of those type of players there are. The bottom line is that not only is he a legit top-line player, he is a legit top-line center. Prior to Jagr being here, who was the last legit top liner that this team has had? An injured Bure? And before that?
Elite, shmelit.....Vinny is a top line center just entering his prime. To simply say "NO" is silly. As I have said time and time again, elite or not (and the word eliteis getting thrown around waaaaaay too much), the Vinnys of the world do not grow on trees. Just look at the recent history of the Rangers to see how rare they are.

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07-28-2006, 01:09 PM
  #62
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Geez,if your gonna go after Lecavalier, might as well go for Richards!

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07-28-2006, 01:24 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Lundqvist102 View Post
They key word is a "potentially" great goaltender. We have a goalie thats been successful as a Ranger for less than a full season, and we're tabbing him as untouchable? I mean look at my name, obviously im a big fan but we're trading a "potentially great but also potential fluke" goaltender for someone that is one of the top centers in the league, as much as you'd like to dispute that. With vinny we have a top center for Jagr, and we have a that much more solid system. As much as i hate to say it, Lundqvist is worth getting Vinny.
My point is that however "unproven" Lundqvist is, Montoya is even more so. His potential to flop is higher than that of Lundqvist. He is a Vezina finalist that makes less than $1m. He won the Gold Medal and he has simply owned the SEL. We can't annoint him as the next big thing, but you cannot come closer to that status save for Cam Ward's post season. I view the goaltender as the most important player on the ice. We seem to have a legitimate goalie for the next 10+ years and I can't justify trading that away for a very good, maybe elite, center straight up. You end up weakening the team in the long run.

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07-28-2006, 01:50 PM
  #64
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Anything could happen I guess, but I'd surprised if this did and I'm hoping it won't.

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07-28-2006, 02:21 PM
  #65
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Some stats:

Lecavalier was 18th in scoring among centers last season.

Of the centers that scored more points than him, three are significantly younger (Crosby, Staal, Spezza), and six are roughly the same age (Thornton, Jokinen, Datsyuk, Richards, Marleau, Gomez - all less than 2 years older).

Michael Nylander had 4 more points than Vinny.

Jarret Stoll had 7 less points and is 2 years younger than Vinny (and is also rumored to be available).

I think the bottom line is that Lecavalier is not a dominant player at his position, so he is not the type of player that is worth going out to mortgage the future for. The fact that he is being payed 7+ million per season is even more reason to stay away. The presence of Jagr and the success of his line last year tells me that the Rangers don't even need a player like that right now anyway. Jagr is good enough to make whomever centers his line "elite", atleast statistically, so I think the Rangers would be better served by patience as of right now.

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07-28-2006, 02:31 PM
  #66
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Is this really such a debatable issue? Of course it would be great to have a legit 1st line center like vinny. BUT I just can't even entertain the thought of trading lundqvist. He and jagr created so much of the excitement on broadway last season. All signs point to Lundqvist being the real deal and while that's not a guarantee, it's as close as you can get. This guy could be the next brodeur or roy or even scarier yet, lundqvist. The guy is the new face of the organization now. I can't think of any possible trade proposal for lundqvist that would actually be put on the table that I would accept. After one more season we'll see where he's at. This guy is untouchable right now.

And as much as I'd love to have Vinny on the team, that salary is too much. I'd rather have money lying around at the trade deadline when we actually know the difference between what the team needs and what it wants.

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07-28-2006, 03:11 PM
  #67
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Although as a Shark fan I couldn't be happier with our one-two punch down the middle, I do think about how awesome it would be to have someone like Vinny Lecavalier on your team.
This guy, making nearly 8mil a season fights Zdeno Chara! Who else does that?
All Thornton did was get kicked out for allegedly cheapshotting Hal Gill! (love Joe, but what a weird guy even if the Gill thing wasn't his fault)

I think teamed with a calming presence of some other fellow stars on his team (such as a Richards, or in an alternate world Marleau, perhaps Cullen?), Lecavalier can at any point be one of the most lethal forces in the entire league. It doesn't matter if his stats don't always stack up, he will be the biggest reason his team wins on any given night.

I am a fan of Lundqvist, and I personally wouldn't do Lundqvist for Vinny straight up as his contract is VERY expensive, but he is not overpaid by a significant amount either. He is one of the unique talents, and if harnessed, is surely a top-10 asset in the entire league IMO.

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07-28-2006, 03:22 PM
  #68
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Some stats:
Michael Nylander had 4 more points than Vinny.
ouch!

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07-28-2006, 03:45 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synergy27 View Post
Some stats:

Lecavalier was 18th in scoring among centers last season.

Of the centers that scored more points than him, three are significantly younger (Crosby, Staal, Spezza), and six are roughly the same age (Thornton, Jokinen, Datsyuk, Richards, Marleau, Gomez - all less than 2 years older).

Michael Nylander had 4 more points than Vinny.

Jarret Stoll had 7 less points and is 2 years younger than Vinny (and is also rumored to be available).

I think the bottom line is that Lecavalier is not a dominant player at his position, so he is not the type of player that is worth going out to mortgage the future for. The fact that he is being payed 7+ million per season is even more reason to stay away. The presence of Jagr and the success of his line last year tells me that the Rangers don't even need a player like that right now anyway. Jagr is good enough to make whomever centers his line "elite", atleast statistically, so I think the Rangers would be better served by patience as of right now.
Id take Brad Richards over Vinny LeCavilier. Richards shows up and never takes nights off. Richards is a key playoff player. Id be willing to deal Prucha for Richards but not for LeCavilier. Prucha, Immonen, Rozsival and Montoya for Richards and Sarich. I think that should be enough to get us Richards. If not its close.

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07-28-2006, 04:26 PM
  #70
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No way would I deal Lundqvist straight up for Lecavlier. Henrik is just too valuable to this club right now. Maybe if Montoya was a year or two further along, but right now we'd be a worse team if we made that trade.

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07-28-2006, 04:58 PM
  #71
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I think Lecavalier is a first line center but he is overpaid for a player of his caliber even though he is just entering the prime of his career. And although I like Brad Richards, he too is vastly overpaid.

As for who has more points comparing Nylander to Lecavalier, Anybody that played with Jagr this past season will get his stats boosted. If Lecavalier played with Jagr I assure you 110% that he will have at least 30 more points than what Nylander hs this past season.

In this scenario, of trading a Lundqvist for Lecavalier. No way because of the fact that you have a franchise FAN FAVORITE goalie (I sometimes think that he is reaching Richter caliber, in terms of being a fan favorite in such a short time.) We have a goalie that has shown his capability to be a great goalie in the NHL level. Build from the NET ON OUT, Goalie to Defenseman to forwards...

I would have just stay with what this team has for now and look for that first line center in the near future. You never know what lurks in the future. So be patient. There is still a lot fo temporary players here in New York, sort of like a stop gap hole.

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07-28-2006, 05:15 PM
  #72
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I would not include Lundqvist in any deal at the moment for anyone with the possible exceptions of Ovechkin and Crosby. At the amount of money that Henrik is making keeping him is less risky than taking the long term contract of someone like LeCavalier who would drive us up to the cap limit and would leave us needing to find another No. 1 goalie. Weekes is a nice backup. He's good in the locker room etc. He's not close to being an elite goalie and is not a real starter IMHO. Henrik may not be an elite goalie either when all is said and done but he'll at least be a very good one--should at least be as good as Richter. Good teams on the long term are built from the goal to the defense on out.

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07-28-2006, 05:22 PM
  #73
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Does anyone else think we're about a year away from making an absolute HUGE move in aquiring a bonafide 1st line center?

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07-28-2006, 05:44 PM
  #74
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Does anyone else think we're about a year away from making an absolute HUGE move in aquiring a bonafide 1st line center?
Yeah me!

But I'm not really high on aquiring guys anymore I want to develop our own, so I say we threaten some people and get to draft Tavares!

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07-28-2006, 05:45 PM
  #75
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Does anyone else think we're about a year away from making an absolute HUGE move in aquiring a bonafide 1st line center?
Something's going to happen eventually, it hasn't happened in these last two offseasons, so it's gotta happen soon, and Slats has hinted at biding his time previously.

I think I'd have to agree with you.

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